Backward T stop ?

[Sessy]

Hey, I don't get it - how is the backward t-stop done? If that's what it's called. Like somebody skates backwards, then the free leg goes backward, forms a T behind the heel of the skating leg (except with like a foot distance to the skating leg's heel, instead of adjoining like in a forward T stop) and the persons stops.

Does the "free" leg use the inside or outside edge? And how do you keep from chopping?

[dbny]

Does the "free" leg use the inside or outside edge? And how do you keep from chopping?

It's really a back one foot snowplow stop and uses the inside edge. Start slowly by bending the skating knee and sliding the stopping foot back and to the side with toe pointed out. Apply pressure to the inside edge until you stop. As you get better at it, you can begin to position the stopping foot more directly behind you and less to the side.

[dooobedooo]

Personally, I don't feel an inside edge at all on this stop.

For me, it is more to do with flexing the ankle so that is leans outwards. This enables the blade to be flatter on the ice so that you can brake with a brushing motion.

[Sessy]

Flexing the ankle so it leans outwards? How do you mean that? And flatter on the ice, you mean the side of the blade flat to the ice, or the edged (under)side of the blade flat to the ice?

You mean, like, to bend the ankle sideways, like this? http://z.about.com/d/p/440/e/f/19626.jpg
Or like hte opposite of this?

[dbny]

Personally, I don't feel an inside edge at all on this stop.

For me, it is more to do with flexing the ankle so that is leans outwards. This enables the blade to be flatter on the ice so that you can brake with a brushing motion.

I don't know that I've ever seen a back stop done like that. Will have to think about it and look around.

Hey, I don't get it - how is the backward t-stop done? If that's what it's called. Like somebody skates backwards, then the free leg goes backward, forms a T behind the heel of the skating leg (except with like a foot distance to the skating leg's heel, instead of adjoining like in a forward T stop) and the persons stops.


I thought a back one foot snowplow was being described because of the distance between the skating foot and the stopping foot.

You mean, like, to bend the ankle sideways, like this? http://z.about.com/d/p/440/e/f/19626.jpg


That is the bend required to apply pressure to the outside edge of the stopping foot in a regular (forward) T stop, and it would be the same going backwards.

[icedancer2]

I think it's an outside edge as well - or a flat. It is kind of choppy when you first do it and eventually you learn to use a very night touch on the ice with your free foot. It's a really nice stop once you've mastered it - mine comes and goes with the quality of the ice and depth of my sharpenings. Having dull blades actually made it harder!

[Sessy]

Hmmm... Okay that could explain it. Cuz the forward T just was natural to me but somehow I figured the backward one would have to use the other edge or something, so that's prolly where it went wrong. I'm gonna try it tomorrow if I can, see how that goes. :)

[dbny]

I think it's an outside edge as well - or a flat.

Is your skating knee bent and your stopping knee straight? If so, this is a back one foot snowplow and uses the inside edge.

Hmmm... Okay that could explain it. Cuz the forward T just was natural to me but somehow I figured the backward one would have to use the other edge or something, so that's prolly where it went wrong. I'm gonna try it tomorrow if I can, see how that goes. :)

The forward T stop uses the outside edge and is not a natural feeling when you first learn it.

I just got back from teaching LTS, where I asked one of the coaches who has both Sr MIF and Sr FS under her belt about this. She said she has never heard of a back stop that uses the outside edge. I positioned my feet as you described, and she agreed it looked to her like a back one foot snowplow.

[icedancer2]

Well, my coach, who has been teaching for 50 years, says it is an outside edge.

And on a forward T-stop, it is my impression that I am using the inside rim of what could be thought of as the outside edge (inside the hollow of the outside edge).

So I guess I'll just agree to disagree!! Too bad we can't all skate in the same place so we can discuss demonstrate these things!!:lol:

[chowskates]

Well, my coach, who has been teaching for 50 years, says it is an outside edge.

And on a forward T-stop, it is my impression that I am using the inside rim of what could be thought of as the outside edge (inside the hollow of the outside edge).

So I guess I'll just agree to disagree!! Too bad we can't all skate in the same place so we can discuss demonstrate these things!!:lol:

Well, if anyone can get a video of this... I have a feeling we might be talking about different stops?

[dbny]

And on a forward T-stop, it is my impression that I am using the inside rim of what could be thought of as the outside edge (inside the hollow of the outside edge).

I agree on that one, but picturing the edge as a line, one can just say "outside edge". In the same vein, if you are skating on the outside edge, you could consider that to be the outside rim of the outside edge :lol:.

Too bad we can't all skate in the same place so we can discuss demonstrate these things!!:lol:

I think I'll start a list of these questions for the next SF meet-up I go to, which will be when Jazzpants comes to NY this winter.

Well, if anyone can get a video of this... I have a feeling we might be talking about different stops?

Yes, that seems likely to me too. Sessy, how about a brief video of this thing?

[Sessy]

I don't have one - video that is.

It's just something a few of the girls in our top competition group (like, nationals) did at one point in their program for a group show. They all stopped/slid with it into a perfect line at one point in their programme, almost out of the blue - now I know I won't get it that well yet, but then I don't need that kind of precision either and I don't expect it to happen overnight either. I just want a neat graceful way of stopping while going backwards.

I think the trick might've actually been that they didn't keep the free foot entirely behind them but more to the side like somebody above mentioned - I'd have to try to find out.

[Sessy]

The forward T stop uses the outside edge and is not a natural feeling when you first learn it.

Then we're probably talking about different things... At some point I started stopping like hockeyers or skiers in a curve, making the quarter-turn clockwise, just self-taught cuz it was the most effective way to stop fast. Then I started lifting my left leg cuz it was convenient, so I was only stopping on the right blade basically. Which I myself thought pretty cool so I kept doing it.

On the new (properly mounted, not bent) blades I wasn't able to do that anymore on 1 blade, so I was adding the left foot in front of the right foot which I pressured on - feet forming, well something like a turned upside down T. Isn't that the T stop?
We had to choose in class between learning either that stop, or one very similar except where the right foot would go in front of the left foot, forming a normal T. They just called both of those T?! No matter whether upside down or normal?

Anyway I did that one normal one too, but I couldn't get my free foot all the way over, it became more of a turned upside-down L than a real T, so I just stuck with the upside-down T thing for the test cuz I could already do that.

[Award]

You mean, like, to bend the ankle sideways, like this? http://z.about.com/d/p/440/e/f/19626.jpg
Or like hte opposite of this?

Oh .... no no ... do not bend the ankle like that.
I believe that you do this reverse T-stop by gliding backwards, then you will need to get ready to balance on one of your gliding skates, and then...for the skate that you're going to stop with, you need to gradually shift the weight toward the front third of the blade, so that you can begin a inside-edge SLIDE (but watch out for the toe pick). So basically, you an first practise at a slow speed, and try stay balanced on your gliding skate (with knee of gliding skate bent), with the stopping skate a little way behind you and gently scraping the ice with the front third of the inside edge. I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be exactly 1/3 of the front....but just keep trying it until you can use the front portion of the skate blade (on inside edge) to scrape/slide along the ice while you're going backward. And eventually, you can start working on putting more and more weight on that 'scraping' skate, and also can begin to adjust the angle of that skate blade to get you into a reverse t-stop.

Sessy is right, about reverse stopping by using the stopping skate to describe a curve/semi-circle. And when you get good at that, it is easy to then adjust angle of skate etc and balance in order to keeping sliding backwards on your stopping skate with less of a curve. Whatever is the case, if you begin by gradually and gently getting into a slide on your stopping skate, then you can use that to begin your t-stop.

Also, as you're doing the t-stop on the stopping skate, try to bend the knee of the stopping skate a bit.

[Sessy]

You just totally, utterly confused me. Especially the part about Sessy is right, cuz Sessy is me and I don't know what you're describing there... Cuz I can't reverse stop at all, let alone on any circles?!

Hmmmm but you do have one point, when I last tried it, my weight was on the gliding, not the stopping foot - where as for the forward t or whatever stop, it is on the stopping foot...
The way the girls did it would be, well, this position - excuse my miserable painting skills:
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9206/untitledtm7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
So, in theory... Yeah I guess their weight could be on the stopping foot, given the vector of combined gravitational and horizontal (speed+mass) force... Hmmm... That's actually another possible explanation. Of course practicing it at slow speed would mean the angle to the ice needs to be closer to 90 degrees than theirs was... Hmm worth a shot.

[dbny]

Then we're probably talking about different things... At some point I started stopping like hockeyers or skiers in a curve, making the quarter-turn clockwise, just self-taught cuz it was the most effective way to stop fast. Then I started lifting my left leg cuz it was convenient, so I was only stopping on the right blade basically. Which I myself thought pretty cool so I kept doing it.

On the new (properly mounted, not bent) blades I wasn't able to do that anymore on 1 blade, so I was adding the left foot in front of the right foot which I pressured on - feet forming, well something like a turned upside down T. Isn't that the T stop?


No, it isn't. That's a one foot hockey stop and it does use the outside edge. In a T stop, one foot is picked up and placed at the heel of the skating foot. Pressure is applied to the outside edge of the stopping foot (the one at your skating heel), which requires bending the outside of the ankle back towards the ice. The stopping knee must be bent quite a bit to do this, while the skating knee is only slightly bent, as weight shifts back to the stopping foot.

You just totally, utterly confused me. Especially the part about Sessy is right, cuz Sessy is me and I don't know what you're describing there... Cuz I can't reverse stop at all, let alone on any circles?!


In this case, "reverse" just means skating backwards.

Your picture describes a one foot back snowplow stop - with pressure applied to the inside edge of the stopping foot. The bent knee on the skating foot is critical.

[Sessy]

Okay really stupid question: isn't the snowplow stop a V shaped stop?

[TreSk8sAZ]

Only if it's a two foot stop. A one foot snow plow is not, and is what you see most skaters doing when they stop before straight line footwork

[Sessy]

Okay I didn't know that...

Didn't get it to try today though by the way. Gonna see about sunday.

[dooobedooo]

Deleted .

[dbny]

With all due respect to the "inside edge" stoppers, I can't believe that their method would work if you were travelling backwards at any speed. Plus you would have a tendency to fall flat on your nose.

I have never had any such tendency; nevertheless, I will pay particular attention tomorrow morning to that stopping foot on the back one foot snowplow. We may be splitting hairs on this one. Unfortunately, I completely forgot to ask my coach about this in my lesson today. We had many other more pressing issues, of course!

[looplover]

I always do a one foot stop on the inside edge going backwards - if you practice it a lot you can do it when you're going relatively fast, though I've never tried it at top speed. I can't do a forward T stop well at all.

OK so then what's a show stop?

[Award]

You just totally, utterly confused me. Especially the part about Sessy is right, cuz Sessy is me and I don't know what you're describing there... Cuz I can't reverse stop at all, let alone on any circles?!


Oh ..... I thought that you meant that you were able to do a stop while going backwards by using the stopping skate to trace a bit of an arc.

Anyway, basically, when beginning to do stops with an edge of a skate....such as inside edge of a skate, it is good to begin with a slide. And one way to slide is to transfer a lot of the weight to the front portion of the skate blade. This gets most of the rear part of the blade off the ice, which means less blade on the ice, and more ability to get into a slide. So, while gliding backwards on one skate, put yourself in the position that you drew in your pretty good diagram, and try using your stopping skate to scrape or slide along the ice....but try to use the front portion of the inside edge of the skate blade to get into the slide...and don't put a lot of weight on the stopping blade to begin with. That is, try gliding backwards on one skate (with bent knee of gliding leg), while trying to get accustomed to lightly scraping the ice using the front portion of the inside edge of the stopping skate. You'll just get better and better at this and eventually you and your body will get used to the feeling and you'll eventually get it. You'll also be able to work out what is the best position. Like anything, it takes time for the body to sort everything out. It also helps a fair bit if you're very good at gliding backwards comfortably on one skate - since then you can simply focus on using the other skate to slide and scrape the ice.

[Sessy]

No I meant I could do that forward, not backward.

Yeah I am comfortable gliding backwards, I've even had to test backward spirals.

>but try to use the front portion of the inside edge of the skate blade to get into the slide...

So skating and scraping leg both use the front part of the inside edge, or do you mean the scraping leg?

[Award]

So skating and scraping leg both use the front part of the inside edge, or do you mean the scraping leg?

yeah......when I meant use the front-portion of the blade (and using the inside edge), I was referring to the stopping skate...the stopping leg. But naturally, don't pivot the stopping skate too far forward, or else the toe-pick could create a problem. Just pivot the stopping skate enough so that you skate can begin to shave the ice in a nicely controlled way. The more you practise this, the more you get the feel of what to do. Since you're good at gliding backwards on one skate, that is a tremendous advantage already.

So in your diagram, when you perform that move in the way you've drawn, don't shave the ice with the middle part of the blade......use the front third (or thereabouts) of the blade (and inside edge).

[Sessy]

Okay thanks! :lol:

[icedancer2]

WEll, I tried this stop again yesterday and, well, I just got my blades sharpened so it is harder, but I still contend that it is easier to do on a flat or an outside edge. It is, for me, harder to do on an inside edge.

I am going to confirm with my coach next week that she teaches it on an outside edge and if she indeed says that she does it on an inside edge, then I will be happy to retract all of my discussion on this subject!

Skate on!:lol:

[dbny]

WEll, I tried this stop again yesterday and, well, I just got my blades sharpened so it is harder, but I still contend that it is easier to do on a flat or an outside edge. It is, for me, harder to do on an inside edge.

Every inside edge stop is harder on freshly sharpened blades. The only stop I can do with very sharp blades is a T stop, which used the outside edge. I've paid attention to the B snowplow stop, and pressure is applied to the inside edge of the stopping blade. I tried very gently to use the flat or outside edge, and can see that it might work, but would be much harder to learn. Also, think about it, if you are stretching out your free leg behind you, with skating knee bent, and applying pressure to the blade, which is at a 90' (or close to it) angle to your direction of travel, you are automatically going to be pressing on the inside edge.