coach ? about programs

[littlekateskate]

Okay, Realize when i discuss this i am speaking in regards to like Beta skaters.

When you do a program for a skater around these levels. Do you only include the required moves. Or would you add a spiral and lunge into these programs?

My daughters coach only has her doing required elements in her program. But I saw two other kids practicing there programs and they had other more difficult elements in the program.

It makes them look more advanced in there skating do the other elements. I know they arent supposed to be judged on the other elements so i was curious what you honest opinion is.

Should I ask our coach to throw in some more fun cool looking things or just stick with the basics?

Thanks

[dbny]

If this is for an ISI competition, then no elements beyond the level at which the skater is competing are allowed, except for uncaptured elements. Uncaptured are those that are not required in any of the test levels.

[Skittl1321]

In addition to what dbny says, you might also want to check the specific competitions rules. I have seen some announcements that restrict what level certain uncaptured elements are allowed, and other announcements that allow basic skills skaters to include up to 1 element in a higher level up to freestyle 1.

[littlekateskate]

hmm. Interesting. It is for ISI competitions. I wonder why they are including these then. Would they really disqualify these kids for having lunges and spirals in there program?

What are some simple uncaputred elements, does anyone know off hand. Those would be wonderful to "learn" and add to the program to spice it up. We are competiting Alpha and crossovers, stroking, and a stop is a bit boring not only to watch, lol but for a little kid to have to practice! :)

Thanks

[peanutskates]

to spice it up, I'd say first just add some cool arm movements. personally I don't know what could be uncaptured... watch your dd when she skates, and when she's not practicing a certain movement, does she do any little footowrky-type movements without even noticing? if yes, maybe it could be in her program.

p.s. when she strokes and such, you could try having her leg in slightly more artistic positions... not quite a spiral... but stretched out higher than usual.. or moved from back to front...

[jskater49]

Why don't you just fire your coach and do it yourself, based on advice you get here. :roll:

j

[slusher]

um...........yes.

[littlekateskate]

Why are you guys so crappy. I dont want to ask my coach a bunch of stupid questions every two seconds. I thought that was part of the reason there was a board here to ask each others opinions and for help.

I am new to the sport and I am sure our coach doesnt want to waste her time with crap like this.. And what if i did fire our coach would you be nicer about answering my questions.

Geez..

[Skittl1321]

To not have to ask your coach everything, order a rulebook from ISI- that will be the easiest way to know what is allowed and what is not.

I don't compete ISI, so I can't tell you specifically what moves are uncaptured. These are specific elements that are not taught in any level pre-alpha through Freeskate 10. There are uncaptured jumps (inside axel?), spins (I'm not sure a Biellman is specifically taught), and glides (spread eagles, ina bauers, certain types of spirals). I'm not sure any of these elements are ACTUALLY uncaptured however, as I don't have a rulebook- or level appropriate for your daughter.

You might also want to check the competition announcement to make sure uncaptured elements are allowed- because YES they will deduct points from adorable little girls if they are doing elements not permitted.

[Lmarletto]

My DD has never competed ISI, but she has a friend who does. The mom tells me that there are always kids doing elements that aren't allowed and her DD always places ahead of them doing only what is allowed. A couple of times she has overheard the kids, parents and coaches :evil: and :frus: over the placements, so apparently it's not uncommon for people to be ignorant of the rules.

On making suggestions to the coach about program content, I have been tempted a couple of times, but never do. I know how coaches talk about those parents who fancy themselves choreographers.;) However, my DD's coach has excellent credentials, has brought DD's skating a long way and the two of them have a very warm personal relationship. Realistically, indulging my control freak tendencies wouldn't make things better in the long term.

And I know you didn't ask, but based on this and other questions you've posted, you need to start *now*, focussing your energies on finding your daughter another coach. You clearly don't respect her current one and you will want to move on smoothly, with minimum melodrama and not looking like a jerk. Don't give any indication that you're looking or not satisfied. Just talk to other parents in a friendly way, paying attention to what they say (and don't say) about their kids coaches. Watch the interaction between other kids and their coaches during lessons, even if it means your eyes aren't on your daughter's lessons. At your daughter's competitions, try to see (cheer for) as many of her rink mates as you conveniently can and watch how they interact with their coaches during warm-up and before and after they skate. Take your time so that you can make a smart choice. Better to move cautiously and do it once, even if that means your DD's out of Delta before you make a switch. You would have been better off waiting to start your DD's privates at the new rink until you'd had some time to check out the coaches, but it's hard for a new skating parent to appreciate how important a decision coaching can be. And stop complaining about your DD's coach when you ask questions. The world is smaller than it looks when you're posting on internet bulletin boards. You have no way of knowing who from your rink might be lurking and have pieced together who you are.

[AshBugg44]

Yes, she will get disqualified if she adds elements from a higher level, except for the one required FS 1 maneuver. Some uncaptured elements she might be able to add are chinese spirals, victory spirals (any spiral that grabs the blade is uncaptured), double bunny hops, etc. All uncaptured maneuvers are listed in the ISI handbook.

[Mrs Redboots]

I'm not quite sure why you are worrying - it will be the coach's job to choreograph your skater's programme, and to make sure she has the required elements in it. Your job is to be the proud mamma telling your skater what a great job she's doing, and being incredibly proud of her (even if she skates appallingly at the competition!).

[chowskates]

In addition to what dbny says, you might also want to check the specific competitions rules. I have seen some announcements that restrict what level certain uncaptured elements are allowed, and other announcements that allow basic skills skaters to include up to 1 element in a higher level up to freestyle 1.

The ISI competition rules for pre-Alpha through Delta says that the skater must include exactly one element from Freestyle 1 - and only freestyle one. That is, if they are in Beta, they still cannot include anything from Gamma or Delta or any higher freestyle.

To answer littlekateskate's question about whether to ask the coach to throw in "fun" things, yes, ask! If it was my student's first competition and her mother asked something like that, I would be happy to explain.

[Tennisany1]

...Entire Post...

ITA with all of this. I completely understand the urge to make suggestions; however, you really need to hold back and let the coach do her job. If you don't like the way the coach is coaching, do what Lmarletto says and find another one.

My dd is a couple of years ahead of yours and believe me, you really need to relax and back off a bit. She has years of skating ahead of her. She also will have many, many competitions where you will feel like she has been totally ripped off, that the judges are blind, that the world doesn't fully appreciate your wonderful child ;) ........ She will also have very exciting competitions where she skates wonderfully well and wins.... as well as competitions where she skates horribly and wins .... That's what figure skating is like. In all these situations she will need a parent who can guide her and teach her to be gracious. The skills learned off the ice are in many ways way more important than whether or not a 5 year old is allowed a spiral or not.

One more piece of unasked for advice: get a good book or a crossword or some knitting or something and keep yourself busy while your daughter skates. You'll find it much more relaxing (as will your dd's coach) if you only glance now and then.

Okay, I'll stop now. I'm really not as grumpy as a sound :oops:

[littlekateskate]

Haha, a crossword puzzle, I WISH! :) I have a 2 year old and a 1 year old in the stroller with me when she skates.

[babyrabbit]

Hmm. Now i am curious. My daughter is only doing prealpha programs right now. But hopefully we will be in Alpha.

But her programs are boring basics nothing special, no hand movements or cute footwork. Maybe now I should request some cutesy moves.

[Skittl1321]

Hmm. Now i am curious. My daughter is only doing prealpha programs right now. But hopefully we will be in Alpha.

But her programs are boring basics nothing special, no hand movements or cute footwork. Maybe now I should request some cutesy moves.

Most alpha programs are like that- basics!, not boring basics. When in alpha it's important to really focus on those because basics are the root of EVERYTHING, and you don't want cutesy moves to take away from the time that really ingrains them, otherwise 5 years down the road she's going to have to relearn them all because she didn't get them this time around! And relearning what you learned at 4, when you are 9- is boring!

If your skaters is bored- you can talk to the coach. Skating at this age should be FUN. But if she's enjoying what she's doing, let the coach do her job!

[Tennisany1]

Haha, a crossword puzzle, I WISH! :) I have a 2 year old and a 1 year old in the stroller with me when she skates.

Sorry, I shouldn't assume :oops:

I can't imagine trying to keep two little ones busy at an ice rink! :bow:

[Lmarletto]

But her programs are boring basics nothing special, no hand movements or cute footwork. Maybe now I should request some cutesy moves.

Most little ones seem to be satisfied with cute music and cute costumes. My daughter didn't like practicing the boring basics, but she seemed perfectly happy with them as choreography. Performing on the ice in front of an audience is hard work and cute moves make it harder. I've twice seen little ones lose their balance during a "cute move", land on their butts, burst into tears, run from the ice and place last. Better to let the coach be the judge of what your skater's body can handle under pressure.

[mdvask8r]

Perhaps the coach has a progression of choreography planned for the program. When I put together a program for a prealpha, alpha, beta- level skater I always start by laying out only the required elements on the pattern I'd like them to skate for maximum ice coverage. After the skater has practiced and more or less mastered this basic choreography with good ice coverage, I start adding in choreographic highlights & extras wherever the skater can handle them. This allows the skater to build confidence before throwing the "fancy stuff" into the mix.

[littlekateskate]

Perhaps the coach has a progression of choreography planned for the program. When I put together a program for a prealpha, alpha, beta- level skater I always start by laying out only the required elements on the pattern I'd like them to skate for maximum ice coverage. After the skater has practiced and more or less mastered this basic choreography with good ice coverage, I start adding in choreographic highlights & extras wherever the skater can handle them. This allows the skater to build confidence before throwing the "fancy stuff" into the mix.

That doesnt make it harder to add things once they have already memorized the routine. I woudl think they would get more confused this way unless of course it was just one or two hand positions.

[phoenix]

That doesnt make it harder to add things once they have already memorized the routine. I woudl think they would get more confused this way unless of course it was just one or two hand positions.

I do it the same way--get the basic stuff laid out first & then add "fluff" if and when the skater has the basic program down solid. They learn to adapt to the changes. But I wouldn't make changes close to the competition date. It's always worked well. It's more important for them to do all the requirements well--start distracting them w/ arm movements, etc, too early, and their focus on whether they've done the right number of steps/right edges, etc, flies out the window. Doing a program requires a tremendous amount of focus--more than you'd think if you've never done one.

[littlekateskate]

I was a ballerina for years and competitive cheerleader, so i have done my share of programs. It just seemed odd to me. Our programs seem to typically be made so close to competition date i guess is why i was curious. But it doesnt seem like everyone does them so close to date.

Obviously the older levels have there routine way in advance. But when we are in the lower levels and changing "patches" so quickly there sometimes isnt much time between. :)

[techskater]

It's common even at the higher levels for a program to evolve through a competitive season. You see it the first time out with a very basic layout and very simple steps between elements and as the skater gets comfortable with the layout and elements, it gets more detailed and intricate. I competed my current program 2 weeks after finishing the layout in June and there were a lot of finishing points to it missing. The program I will be putting out in two weeks has the same layout and elements, but it's polished and more detailed and I know that between now and Adult Sectionals it is likely to have even more detail and a couple (minor) changes in the elements.

[fdlsk8r]

that the other skaters are preparing for the same competition, same event. At one of our rinks there are skaters preparing for 3 different competitions and rules may be different for each - even at the same level.

When in doubt, I would simply ask the coach what requirements are etc.

[babyrabbit]

Our programs have all seemed to be made very close to competition as well here. I cant imagine changing too much since we only have a couple weeks to learn them anyway. :lol:

[luckeylasvegas]

You also need to be sure that the other skaters are skating in the same event. When she gets higher up skaters will be skating in Artistic or Dramatic spotlights that will have higher elements in them because they are not bound by required elements. Alpha programs are short and simple because that is all that the skaters have learned. I agree with the other posters that if you do not trust that your DD coach knows what he/she is doing then you need to have a discussion with them and or find a new coach. It is possible that you will be with this person for a very long time ( mine's been with her's for almost 6 years now age 5 - 11) , you will have good days and bad and communication is a BIG key. Your DD doesn't need a second coach just a mom to think her forward cross overs are the best she's ever seen ! :)

[liz_on_ice]

Yes, she will get disqualified if she adds elements from a higher level, except for the one required FS 1 maneuver. Some uncaptured elements she might be able to add are chinese spirals, victory spirals (any spiral that grabs the blade is uncaptured), double bunny hops, etc. All uncaptured maneuvers are listed in the ISI handbook.

One FS1 maneuver is required at pre-alpha through delta in the program in addition to the compulsory maneuvers. More than one, or any higher level maneuver will get a penalty grade of 2.0 (not a deduction, that is the grade) under correctness.

[twokidsskatemom]

It might be a spotlight artistic or a program not ISI.They will deduct if you have more than one element from FS1 in a program. When you get to FS 1 and above, you cant have any higher level elements in a FS program.That is one HUGE difference with ISi and USFSA.
My daughter coach makes a plain program and then after she gets that, the pretty extra stuff is added. When my skater was that age and level., we got programs maybe 3 weeks before.They dont need a long time and sometimes can get bored if they spent months with a program.
In fact this weekend my skater had a comp and they changed her ending pose 5 minutes before she skated. She took first so it worked out well:}

[Skate@Delaware]

You should get yourself an ISI rulebook. Then for each competition, get a copy of the entry package (from the coach). My coach gladly supplies me with this, I read it in case there is a spotlight or other event I want to enter besides freestyle.

About routines, we lay down a "basic" foundation about 8-12 weeks from the competition. As the time gets closer, we add "fluff" and work on: timing, finesse, moves, etc.

The first few times with just a basic routine, my music finishes before I do. As time progresses and I learn/memorize my routine, it gets better and I get more on time. Then we add the other elements. My goal is to have all the fluff added and a great run-through, finishing on time about 3-4 weeks before the competition. Then I can work on stamina and any last-minute details (i.e. changing elements that arent working).

I am sure your daughter's coach does the same thing-whether basic or advanced. It's always fix this, remove that, and get it working. Your daughter will learn her routine. Kids are amazing at how well they pick up these things! I work with kids from 4 and up and they have minds like sponges! Sometimes they remind ME what was changed!

Also, don't be afraid to network with the other rink-moms. They can also be a great resource of information.