Pancake Spin ?

[singerskates]

I've been trying to do a forward pancake spin from a regular forward sitspin but can't seem to get my freeleg into position. It's there for a second and then it falls out.

How do you do it?
What tips do you have?
Any exercises to get this position?
How would one go from the pancake position to a broken sit?

I can already do a reg. forward sit 3 to 5 revs to a broken sit 3 to 4 revs but I'd like to see if I can place the pancake in the middle for more CPC points.

singerskates

[wasabi]

Are you holding your leg? You'll need to learn it by holding your leg in place first before you attempt to do one without the hold. In fact, you might be better off just learning it with the hold and sticking with that -- they're worth the same amount. If I grab my blade I grab it with my palm against the edge of the blade -- I cut my hand enough times to learn that lesson! Now I grab the toe of my boot (this is harder I think, so maybe learn by grabbing your blade, with gloves on!, and then practice this). If you're grabbing it this way and still can't do it, either your spin isn't strong/fast enough or you're not quite flexible enough (which I'm guessing is the more likely of the two).

Do you stretch at the boards before practice? If you do, put your leg up on the boards and curl it towards you, much like the pancake position, and try to get your head to your knee. You can also do this on any railing, table, etc. Another method is to sit in a chair, cross your legs like a pancake, and stretch your head to your knee, or to simply do it on the floor. If all of these are extremely painful for you -- beyond a regular stretch -- I wouldn't push it and would pick a different position. You can do a back pancake (tuck), which IMO is easier; you can't use them both in the same spin, so you can substitute the back pancake for the forward one. It takes more technique but less stretch.

As for the broken leg, once you get the forward pancake it'll be easy to go from one to another. You won't be gaining any speed, though, so make sure it's a very fast spin for begin with. If you really want more points, you could practice both out of a back sit -- you get an extra bullet for starting in the back sit, and the pancake's easier, at least for me, on that edge.

[jskater49]

My dd does this spin. SHe says it seems weird but you need to look at your spinning foot. She suggests using your hand to put your foot in position if you need to but not to hold it there. She brings her arms up behind her back.



j

[doubletoe]

I just learned this spin from Silvia Fontana at the Hackensack camp, and her tip was to turn the free foot out so that the inside of the foot is facing up, then put your fingers under the outside of the blade (the side of the blade, not on the part that will cut your fingers) and lift the foot and place it on the knee that way. Then fold the torso over from the hips, trying to keep from rounding your back. I agree, just keep holding your blade with the left hand because the position counts whether or not you're doing anything more difficult with your arms.

Stiff hips will make this difficult, so stretch by doing the pancake position while sitting at your desk during the day (I haven't been caught yet, LOL!) and make sure you stretch out by just doing the position before trying it in the spin.

At first I was worried about where to look so that I wouldn't get dizzy, but then I just started trying to keep my head as a unit with my upper body and lower it all together, not worrying about where to look. I find that I am looking at the ice during the spin, but surprisingly, it doesn't bother me or make me dizzy.

One thing to keep in mind when doing this spin is that a lot of skaters unconsciously rise up a little higher once they go from the sit position to the pancake. If your butt gets higher than the knee when you do this position, it will not count as a sit position.

[singerskates]

Are you holding your leg? You'll need to learn it by holding your leg in place first before you attempt to do one without the hold. In fact, you might be better off just learning it with the hold and sticking with that -- they're worth the same amount. If I grab my blade I grab it with my palm against the edge of the blade -- I cut my hand enough times to learn that lesson! Now I grab the toe of my boot (this is harder I think, so maybe learn by grabbing your blade, with gloves on!, and then practice this). If you're grabbing it this way and still can't do it, either your spin isn't strong/fast enough or you're not quite flexible enough (which I'm guessing is the more likely of the two).

Do you stretch at the boards before practice? If you do, put your leg up on the boards and curl it towards you, much like the pancake position, and try to get your head to your knee. You can also do this on any railing, table, etc. Another method is to sit in a chair, cross your legs like a pancake, and stretch your head to your knee, or to simply do it on the floor. If all of these are extremely painful for you -- beyond a regular stretch -- I wouldn't push it and would pick a different position. You can do a back pancake (tuck), which IMO is easier; you can't use them both in the same spin, so you can substitute the back pancake for the forward one. It takes more technique but less stretch.

As for the broken leg, once you get the forward pancake it'll be easy to go from one to another. You won't be gaining any speed, though, so make sure it's a very fast spin for begin with. If you really want more points, you could practice both out of a back sit -- you get an extra bullet for starting in the back sit, and the pancake's easier, at least for me, on that edge.


Yup, as an adult skater I'm no Gumbie (stretchy cartoon character from before the 70's) and I do need to keep working on flexibility. I can get my leg into position with my hand grabbing at the heal of my foot (with runners on, probably try grabbing in the heel area of my boot between the boot and the blade and then wrap my other arm through and around my freeleg. I can feel the stretch really well. Yeah, I was trying to get my leg to get there without my hands assistance. From what you said, I will have to try to get even more speed in my sit than I have when I try this again in a week and half. I'll make sure to try that curling your leg infront of you on the boards stretch after warming up before getting to business. Thanks for your advice!!!

[chowskates]

I just learned this spin from Silvia Fontana at the Hackensack camp,
Your position does look good ;)

One thing to keep in mind when doing this spin is that a lot of skaters unconsciously rise up a little higher once they go from the sit position to the pancake. If your butt gets higher than the knee when you do this position, it will not count as a sit position.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... I thought you are allowed to do "difficult variations" in "intermediate positions"? So it shouldn't really matter if the position counts as a sit position, right?

[wasabi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but... I thought you are allowed to do "difficult variations" in "intermediate positions"? So it shouldn't really matter if the position counts as a sit position, right?

Nope, you're not allowed to anymore. If it's not a sit/camel/upright, it doesn't count.

[doubletoe]

Your position does look good ;)

Thank you! My facial expression during the spin seems to need a bit more work, though, LOL!


Correct me if I'm wrong, but... I thought you are allowed to do "difficult variations" in "intermediate positions"? So it shouldn't really matter if the position counts as a sit position, right?

It just depends on what spin you're doing and whether you are going for the "all 3 basic positions" feature. If you are doing a combination spin and want to get credit for all 3 basic positions, then the sitspin or pancake must be low enough to count as a sitspin. But if you've already done a sitspin that is low enough and held it for at least 2 revolutions, you've got that feature taken care of and you can do a pancake in an intermediate position and get another feature for it.

On the other hand, if you are doing a sitspin or change foot sitspin, then I don't think you will get credit for a pancake variation that is not done in an an official sit position.

[wasabi]

It just depends on what spin you're doing and whether you are going for the "all 3 basic positions" feature. If you are doing a combination spin and want to get credit for all 3 basic positions, then the sitspin or pancake must be low enough to count as a sitspin. But if you've already done a sitspin that is low enough and held it for at least 2 revolutions, you've got that feature taken care of and you can do a pancake in an intermediate position and get another feature for it.

This was true last year, but I'm pretty sure it's not true anymore. On a combination spin, you now only get credit for one difficult variation per position (aka, one sit variation, one camel, etc), so all have to be in position. I can't seem to drag up where it says this, but my coach is a technical specialist, and she's very careful that we get low enough in ALL the sit variations, and I can't imagine it's for nothing.

Edited to clarify: you won't get points off for intermediate positions (though there is a slight danger of a solo spin being called as a combo spin), but you won't get any extra bullets for the variation (I have two sit spin variations in my combo, because one more than likely will be called as an intermediary position). And a plain sitspin doesn't give you an extra bullet unless you do a sit spin, a camel, and an upright on both legs.

[blackmanskating]

I've been trying to do a forward pancake spin from a regular forward sitspin but can't seem to get my freeleg into position. It's there for a second and then it falls out.

How do you do it?
What tips do you have?
Any exercises to get this position?
How would one go from the pancake position to a broken sit?

I can already do a reg. forward sit 3 to 5 revs to a broken sit 3 to 4 revs but I'd like to see if I can place the pancake in the middle for more CPC points.

singerskates

I'm practicing a back pancake spin. I've never tried a forward one. I'll try a foward pancake tomorrow to see if I can even get in the position. I'm working on forward-camel/forward sit to outside edge/ back sit/ back pancake spin combination. I've never typed it out before. It sounds like alot. But Try to up your points by changing edges in the spin. It's really hard for me but I think it's the best way to max out my points. Besides, I think it looks cool when it's working. LOL I can't do it with my back sit yet but the forward sit it coming a long. But just as a jskater said about the pancake spin, it does help out alot if you look down at your skating foot while in this position. I fall over it I don't.


BlackManSkating

[blackmanskating]

I'm practicing a back pancake spin. I've never tried a forward one. I'll try a foward pancake tomorrow to see if I can even get in the position. I'm working on forward-camel/forward sit to outside edge/ back sit/ back pancake spin combination. I've never typed it out before. It sounds like alot. But Try to up your points by changing edges in the spin. It's really hard for me but I think it's the best way to max out my points. Besides, I think it looks cool when it's working. LOL I can't do it with my back sit yet but the forward sit it coming a long. But just as a jskater said about the pancake spin, it does help out alot if you look down at your skating foot while in this position. I fall over it I don't.


BlackManSkating


I tried a foward pancake and I really couldn't do it that well. I tried to go straight into it and I also tried it from a camel/sit/pancake. I fell trying to get into the position. I also didn't feel I got as low as my back pancake. This is a tough one.


BlackManSkating

[daisies]

This was true last year, but I'm pretty sure it's not true anymore. On a combination spin, you now only get credit for one difficult variation per position (aka, one sit variation, one camel, etc), so all have to be in position. I can't seem to drag up where it says this, but my coach is a technical specialist, and she's very careful that we get low enough in ALL the sit variations, and I can't imagine it's for nothing.

Edited to clarify: you won't get points off for intermediate positions (though there is a slight danger of a solo spin being called as a combo spin), but you won't get any extra bullets for the variation (I have two sit spin variations in my combo, because one more than likely will be called as an intermediary position). And a plain sitspin doesn't give you an extra bullet unless you do a sit spin, a camel, and an upright on both legs.

The most recent clarification says:

1. In the Levels Chart a Spin Combination without change of foot, Singles, difficult variations count as many times as the number executed in different positions one of which can be intermediate. However a skater can get not more than 3 Features this way (any two basic positions and any one intermediate position).

2. In the Levels Chart a Spin Combination with change of foot, Singles, second difficult variation counts if the two variations are on different feet and in different positions – at least one of them in any basic position. The other variation in this case can be in any position (basic or intermediate) different from the first one.

[wasabi]

Thanks for that. I never read the clarifications. I'd still be wary of using intermediate positions though -- especially if they're close to one that you're already using -- because it might be called as a different position than intended. I guess if you can't do a L4 (or whatever you aspire to) without using them, then stick them in because you have nothing to lose; but if you can get rid of them, it's probably slightly safer that way.