pseudo-bielmann spin

[Award]

I saw someone doing a spin that is somewhat like a bielmann spin, except the non-skating leg is pulled down with both arms (hands) so that the skate ends up just on top of the head (almost touching the top of the head). Is that really a variation of the bielmann spin? Or it is called something else?

[Sessy]

You mean like Caroline Zhang?
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4193/caroline20zhang20jlfs209xh.jpg

[Skittl1321]

Gosh that girl is flexible- so a layback biellman?

[Sessy]

Actually, her layback is here (prepare to have your eyes crawl on top of your forehead) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSadv0tuj9s
Time index 1:59

[looplover]

Actually, her layback is here (prepare to have your eyes crawl on top of your forehead) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSadv0tuj9s
Time index 1:59

My God! The child has no bones, only cartilage. I'm sure of it.8O

[SynchroSk8r114]

My God! The child has no bones, only cartilage. I'm sure of it.8O

Haha! That's exactly what my teammates and I were thinking when we walked into a hotel at SynchroEast and saw that playing on TV in the lobby. We all said that she definitely does not have a backbone! Wow! 8O She's definitely going to be the next big thing!

[Skittl1321]

Actually, her layback is here (prepare to have your eyes crawl on top of your forehead) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSadv0tuj9s
Time index 1:59

Oh, i've seen her do a layback- it's insane. Isn't that position the spin she's trying to get called "The Pearl"? Except that if no one else can do a spin- the name probably won't happen?

Then again, probably not many people were able to do Beillman's for a few years after Denise Beillman used it a lot (although, I've been told she wasn't the first to do it?)

[Award]

You mean like Caroline Zhang?

oh gee ....yeah!! Just like that one!! It looks like Caroline Zhang's one is way more spectacular, since Caroline's back is arched and eyes are pointing upward toward the sky. The spin that I saw was straight back, and head straight up. I wonder what Caroline Zhang's spin is called.

skittl mentioned 'pearl' spin. At least I have a name to follow up.

Anyway, so if somebody does a spin like Caroline Zhang's, but not in a layback position, and with head straight up, and the free skate just sitting on top of the head (nearly touching head), then that's a variant of bielmann spin, maybe, right?

[Award]

Actually, her layback is here (prepare to have your eyes crawl on top of your forehead) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSadv0tuj9s
Time index 1:59

Oh gee!..... I just saw that clip before. That was extremely impressive...the whole performance.

[Skittl1321]

oh gee ....yeah!! Just like that one!! It looks like Caroline Zhang's one is way more spectacular, since Caroline's back is arched and eyes are pointing upward toward the sky. The spin that I saw was straight back, and head straight up. I wonder what Caroline Zhang's spin is called.

skittl mentioned 'pearl' spin. At least I have a name to follow up.

Anyway, so if somebody does a spin like Caroline Zhang's, but not in a layback position, and with head straight up, and the free skate just sitting on top of the head (nearly touching head), then that's a variant of bielmann spin, maybe, right?

The pearl isn't like the first picture (the pseudo bielmann, sort of layback) it's like a layback to an extreme- http://reinventingthewheel.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/caroline-zhang.jpg like the one in the video. This isn't a bielman at all, though it is a layback.

[Sessy]

Oh, i've seen her do a layback- it's insane. Isn't that position the spin she's trying to get called "The Pearl"? Except that if no one else can do a spin- the name probably won't happen?

Then again, probably not many people were able to do Beillman's for a few years after Denise Beillman used it a lot (although, I've been told she wasn't the first to do it?)

Why isn't she trying to call it the Zhang? The Pearl sounds so... Pirates-of-the-Caribbean-ish.

[Sessy]

Haha! That's exactly what my teammates and I were thinking when we walked into a hotel at SynchroEast and saw that playing on TV in the lobby. We all said that she definitely does not have a backbone! Wow! 8O She's definitely going to be the next big thing!

I dunno, she's still not got any boobs or hips, that might mess things up pretty bad.

[jskater49]

Then again, probably not many people were able to do Beillman's for a few years after Denise Beillman used it a lot (although, I've been told she wasn't the first to do it?)

Actually the Beilman was a move used by show skaters long before Beilman - she was the first to put it in competition.

j

[Skittl1321]

Why isn't she trying to call it the Zhang? The Pearl sounds so... Pirates-of-the-Caribbean-ish.

From what i've read around the internet a Korean skater did it first- Zhang just mad it "known" (I wouldn't say popular- cause it certainly isn't done a lot). No idea if this is true or not. Maybe she just likes that name- or thinks her body looks like it's folded like an oyster?

[liz_on_ice]

From what i've read around the internet a Korean skater did it first- Zhang just mad it "known" (I wouldn't say popular- cause it certainly isn't done a lot). No idea if this is true or not. Maybe she just likes that name- or thinks her body looks like it's folded like an oyster?

A tv reporter made the mistake of calling the move the oyster. Caroline corrected him, told him oysters were yucky. :lol:

[Lena]

I heard some people calling this the sword spin...

[doubletoe]

I saw Caroline compete last night. She skated a clean program that opened with a triple flip- triple toe (I think maybe her first triple-triple in competition). She also did this spin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQhf7WSUsGE

It's sick.

[Sessy]

The girl is made of rubber band. Which kinda explains why she's all bouncy in her jumps. :mrgreen:

[SynchroSk8r114]

I dunno, she's still not got any boobs or hips, that might mess things up pretty bad.

True. She is a tiny little thing!

[doubletoe]

True. She is a tiny little thing!

Last night her mother told me she has just grown another inch and is now actually over 5' tall. (True, no boobs or hips yet, but I don't have any either and I'm all grown up, LOL!)

[Sessy]

Hey I've seen video's of you, that's not true. :mrgreen:

[twokidsskatemom]

I love her skating.
That said, its very hard to compete or compare a skater to someone that was born like a gumby.:giveup:

[flikkitty11]

This is Kayla doig at Australian Nationals this year with her new spin (which was acctually done at one of the state championships but she didnt hold it for long enough to be counted).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKGC63cLZYA

She got extra points in both programs but im not sure where, even though i looked at the judges scores.

[Skittl1321]

This is Kayla doig at Australian Nationals this year with her new spin (which was acctually done at one of the state championships but she didnt hold it for long enough to be counted).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKGC63cLZYA

She got extra points in both programs but im not sure where, even though i looked at the judges scores.

Very pretty- the position looks the same as what was described in the original post- except she is starting there and then extending to a biellman, an interesting variation- where the others I've seen have started in a biellman and pulled down to the foot on head position.

[wasabi]

She got extra points in both programs but im not sure where, even though i looked at the judges scores.

COP has a rule that completely new elements can be awarded two bonus points each time they're done by the skater who "invented" them, for the duration of a season. I'm assuming this is why she got extra points?

[Award]

This is Kayla doig at Australian Nationals this year with her new spin (which was acctually done at one of the state championships but she didnt hold it for long enough to be counted).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKGC63cLZYA

Caroline Zhang had probably been doing this spin ages before kayla. There are youtube clips of Caroline doing that at world juniors.

[Skittl1321]

Caroline Zhang had probably been doing this spin ages before kayla. There are youtube clips of Caroline doing that at world juniors.

Caroline brings her foot down to her head after she does a biellman- this spin the foot is first brought to the head, and then extended. It's the same position, but not the same action to get there- I don't know if that counts as a difference or not- I really don't understand the system- but it seems like a much greater chance of slicing your face, since you get in position with the blade near your face, rather than get into position, then pull the foot down.

[Skittl1321]

COP has a rule that completely new elements can be awarded two bonus points each time they're done by the skater who "invented" them, for the duration of a season. I'm assuming this is why she got extra points?

How do they know who invents spins? Does "invent" mean first person to do it in competition? There are girls who have incredible spins in practice that they just haven't put in their program- anyone who sees them practice could try it and then get credit.

Do competitions across the world keep track of any new spin that someone in another country might have done?

What if two skaters have the same "new" spin in their programs- does the one who pulls first in the draw get the "invention" credit? (yeah, I know that case is unlikely- but it's not unlikely to think two people are working on the exact same thing on opposite sides of the world without realizing it- that's happened alot throughout history on various things. Is it just whomever has a competition to go to first?)

[Award]

Caroline brings her foot down to her head after she does a biellman- this spin the foot is first brought to the head

That's very true skittl. Although, probably what counts is the spin itself...maybe. Like, how someone gets into this stance or position doesn't count right? Although, we could call it a different spin combo. As for the spin itself, it can't be a new spin because someone has already been doing that I'd say.

[wasabi]

How do they know who invents spins? Does "invent" mean first person to do it in competition? There are girls who have incredible spins in practice that they just haven't put in their program- anyone who sees them practice could try it and then get credit.

Do competitions across the world keep track of any new spin that someone in another country might have done?

What if two skaters have the same "new" spin in their programs- does the one who pulls first in the draw get the "invention" credit? (yeah, I know that case is unlikely- but it's not unlikely to think two people are working on the exact same thing on opposite sides of the world without realizing it- that's happened alot throughout history on various things. Is it just whomever has a competition to go to first?)

I don't really know how exactly they determine it. I'm sure there are at least half a dozen others who have done this spin in competition, before both Kayla and Caroline. It does have to be shown in competition, though, like jskater mentioned with the beilmann. The draw for that competition shouldn't matter though -- if two people do the same new spin in the same competition, they both get the bonus, but only for that one competition, not for the whole season.

Honestly, I can't think of any other instance where the extra points have been given out, though.

[doubletoe]

I don't really know how exactly they determine it. I'm sure there are at least half a dozen others who have done this spin in competition, before both Kayla and Caroline. It does have to be shown in competition, though, like jskater mentioned with the beilmann. The draw for that competition shouldn't matter though -- if two people do the same new spin in the same competition, they both get the bonus, but only for that one competition, not for the whole season.

Honestly, I can't think of any other instance where the extra points have been given out, though.

I wondered that as well. I was expecting Caroline to get that new move bonus last season for her "pearl" spin position but she never did. I'm not sure exactly what the rules are as far as how they determine when to give that out, but knowing the ISU, it's probably complicated. :??

[Sessy]

Kevin van der Perren said he was gonna put two new never-done spins in his programme this year... I saw him train this summer, but I didn't get to see the new spins.
But uh, maybe they'll explain about it when he does them for the europeans on dutch tv, if they do I'll let you know.

[kayskate]

At about 2:05 or so in this vid Swiss champ Nathalie Krieg does the most incredible Biellman variation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8d55TwbhPE

Kay

[Sessy]

Yes, it definately is.

[airnuts]

I saw someone doing a spin that is somewhat like a bielmann spin, except the non-skating leg is pulled down with both arms (hands) so that the skate ends up just on top of the head (almost touching the top of the head). Is that really a variation of the bielmann spin? Or it is called something else?

Firstly, Caroline Zhang wasn't born when Denise won the European competition with the pirouette. We are talking about 1971 and 1981 and not 1993 when Caroline was born

Also, the pirouette invented by Karen Iten of Aegeri, Zug, Switzerland and shown to teammate and popularized by Denise Biellman is performed with a vertical and straight upper body and the skate drawn up the back to head height.

Originator/Inventor or whatever of the pirouette was quite definitely Karin Iten and she copied nobody.

A photo of the correct form of the pirouette by Biellmann http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biellmann_spin

Cheers
airnuts

Spin History
Cecilia Colledge of Great Britain performed a one-handed Biellmann spin in 1937. There is a famous photograph of her doing the spin at the 1937 World Figure Skating Championships. Tamara Moskvina of the Soviet Union performed the spin at the 1965 European Championships and there if a famous photo of her doing it as well. Both Janet Champion and Slavka Kohout of the United States performed this spin early on.

The two handed stretched above the head version
The spin is named after Swiss skater Denise Biellmann, who popularized the move. Biellmann performed the spin beginning in the 1970s, having learned it from her teammate, fellow Swiss skater Karin Iten. Biellmann performed the spin on her way to becoming World Champion and the spin was officially named for her. It is the only figure skating spin officially named after a skater in International Skating Union regulations.
Thks to Wikipedia