Lower leg twist (turn out)

[black]

This has been on my mind for a while now and I was wondering what you thought:

When I walk on land my feet point straight forwards, however for a number of skating moves I'm finding that I twist/turn my lower leg out. Now this is not unusual since there are two bones in the lower leg similar to the forearm. It has been commented that this is bad for your knees, pronation etc. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it unless you pressure the turn out. While we think nothing of twisting our arms, our legs have to support our body weight and so are under more pressure; our knees being much stronger than elbows however.

I have looked for this trait in youtube videos and at the rink and some people do it more than others. Physically we are subtly different due to genetics, nutrition & training etc so my point is surely turn out should be about what is comfortable for you rather than not at all?

[dbny]

so my point is surely turn out should be about what is comfortable for you rather than not at all?

In figure skating, as in ballet, turnout is highly prized. The amount of turnout you can comfortably get, without stressing your knees has to do with the architecture of your hips, and by the time you are two is pretty firmly established. Stretching can help, but certain moves are always going to be impossible for those of us with poor turnout, and simple as cake for those with 180' turnout. Outside spread eagles are a good example of this. Turnout has been discussed on several other threads, and you can find them with the search option.

[airyfairy76]

Hopefully as an ex-ballet dancer, and a medical professional, I should be able to put this in a sensible way (apologies if I babble!).

The turnout in ballet comes from the hips, ie. the rotation of the ball on the thigh bone in the hip socket.

You can rotate from the knees - as you have rightly pointed out, the two bones in the lower leg allow for this, much as the two bones in your forearm. However, the joint structure is completely different and the bones in the forearm are shaped to allow this rotation. Not so much in the lower leg.

The reason why this lower leg rotation from the knee is bad for the joint is for a number of reasons:


As the knee joint is load bearing, it has significantly more complicated anatomy than the elbow joint, with its arrangements of ligaments, muscle attachments and cartilage. The cruciate ligaments within the knee are "crossed", so increased torsion can potentially strain them. In fact, cruciate ligament tears are a well known footballers injury - when they are pivoting around and their spikes are stuck in the turf.
While not so bad when you have your legs straight, when you bend your knees (with the turnout happening in the knee), the torsion you put through the knee joint puts your ligaments under massively more strain than if your legs were rotated from the hip. However natural your turnout, you should always have your knees over your toes when you bend your legs. If your toes are pointing sideways, but your knees are facing forward, then the strain is happening and you need to decrease the turnout.
Any jumps landing through this would increase the strain even more and are potentially dangerous if you force turnout that isn't there.
When you twist your arm, there is no weight on it - you can take it only as far as the muscles will allow. When you do the same with your knees, your weight will effectively force it that much more, even if it doesn't feel strained.


There are exercises you can do to stretch the muscles and ligaments around the hip joints to help with turnout, but as DBNY has said, a lot of it comes down to genetics.

However, as I have learnt with figure skating, there are postives and negatives to everything. I have naturally very extensive turnout, but it has made some things more difficult for me than someone with "closed" hips - 3-turns being a case in point!

[dooobedooo]

.... The turnout ..... comes from the hips, ie. the rotation of the ball on the thigh bone in the hip socket....


ITA. You turn out your toes, knee, leg and thigh as a unit from the hip.

If you do a search on this site, you will find some threads on stretches to improve turnout.
Here's a fairly recent informative one:
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=21709&highlight=turnout+stretches

[jazzpants]

However, as I have learnt with figure skating, there are postives and negatives to everything. I have naturally very extensive turnout, but it has made some things more difficult for me than someone with "closed" hips - 3-turns being a case in point!Yup! My secondary coach had made the case that I should have not that much problem with doubles and I can spin like a top (Yeah, right!!! :roll: :twisted: ) Of course, spirals and grace moves like ina bauer and even FO mohawks is gonna be murder for me. (But hey! I can spin and jump easily... :P )

In any case, my secondary coach wants a LOT more of a turnout for me...

[quarkiki2]

So agree that turnout is from the hips. Please don't try to tweak it from teh knees or ankle as it causes your joints undue stress.

I also agree that if you have very good natural turnout, three turns stink the big ol' stink. But mohawks are easier and usually very pretty...

[airyfairy76]

I also agree that if you have very good natural turnout, three turns stink the big ol' stink. But mohawks are easier and usually very pretty...

So my coach tells me! I haven't done mohawks yet, but after the hellish torment of learning 3-turns, I think I am due something that I find easier, to compensate!!!

I actually have to physically brace everything across my lower abdomen, thighs and bum, to keep my hips "tight" when doing a 3-turn (if that makes sense!).

[Award]

I haven't got the best turn-out either, but I compensate for that with a tiny bit of lower leg twist....just tiny bit I think, and also my ankles. It doesn't hurt and I don't feel any pressure or straining with it. It just depends on your own body structuring and potential I guess.

[quarkiki2]

So my coach tells me! I haven't done mohawks yet, but after the hellish torment of learning 3-turns, I think I am due something that I find easier, to compensate!!!

I actually have to physically brace everything across my lower abdomen, thighs and bum, to keep my hips "tight" when doing a 3-turn (if that makes sense!).


Makes perfect sense to me. My hips are so open that I have to physically concentrate to keep them closed enough to do the turn properly. On the other hand, every time I pick my foot up, it's very pretty -- I can't pick up my foot without pointing my toes and turning my leg out. 15 years of ballet...

There is a trade off, though. I'm so dang flexible in my hips/back/quads that I can drop into a full split without warming up, but the issue is long tendons -- so my joints are not terribly stable and my ankles will be forever weak (skates are much better than pointe shoes, LOL!). My hips pop in and out regularly and I anticipate that growing old will be extra heck, LOL!