Dutch waltz and other Newbie dance questions

[Scarlett]

Hello all,

I'm new to dance and have a couple of dance related questions:

1. The dutch waltz: I run out of room in the rink. How do you keep the end pattern in the end of the rink? I can't seem to keep the progressive/swing roll/step/step in the end...there are those pesky walls that appear at a high rate of speed. Is there a trick?

2. Practice: How on earth do you practice a dance on a crowded freestyle session? Do you practice on public sessions or moves sessions? It is bad enough being a CW skater on a crowded session but this is ridiculous.

3. Progressives vs. crossovers: I just don't see the difference. Is it just a timing thing?

[Mrs Redboots]

1) Deeper edges. Make sure that the progressive run brings you right round so that you're facing up the rink as you push off into the swing roll, which then comes right round back again.

2) With difficulty, but it can be done! You get used to dodging.

3) For a crossover, you pick up your outside foot and put it down over your inside foot, which then rocks over and lifts off. For a progressive, or run, it goes down just ahead of it, and the inside foot then pushes underneath to lift off. The difference, my first coach once said, is about two inches!

[jskater49]

Mrs. Redboots pretty much covered it. -- you really do have to have good edges to get around the corner - when changing feet, I found it helpful to think about rebending even before the next step - the knee bend is key to the edges.


A good excersize for progressives are swizzle grapevines - push your feet out like a swizzle and then, keeping your feet on the ice, cross your feet and then uncross them, alternativing right over left, then left over right. Around here, they are not so picky at the lower levels about progressives, but it's good to work on it now, make sure at least you have a good underpush.




j

[phoenix]

Yes--the Dutch Waltz is actually quite a difficult dance to get the depth of edge you need, at the speed you need!

A couple good exercises:
Do swing rolls down the ice--you goal is to fit in 8 swing rolls before you get to the end. Of course, you still need to be skating w/ speed & power as you do this.

Once you can do that, then put on the Dutch Waltz music, and do the same thing, in time with the music. You goal, of course, is to get each lobe to come fully around so you're facing the side wall each time you start a new Swing Roll.

--In order to get the edge to come around the way you need it to, make sure that each foot sets down already on the outside edge. If you set it down flat, then rock it over to the edge, it's too late.

Hope that's helpful! What will help you most here is working on exercises & pieces of the dance, rather than running endless patterns that never quite work.

[SynchroSk8r114]

Welcome! Wow, lots of questions...let's see what I can help with.

1.) It's easy to run out of rink while doing the Dutch Waltz, especially in a standard-size rink. My students are currently skating it in an Olympic size rink, so they get off a tad bit easier in that aspect. To avoid running out of room on that dreaded end pattern, make sure that you are taking deep edges, especially on the progressive/swing roll. Bending your knees helps a lot with this!

As for the two strokes...many people don't realize this, but you actually want to take the second stroke around a little bit so that you're heading up ice instead of straight into the wall. Those are actually an outside (first stroke) and an inside (second stroke). It's that second stroke on the inside edge that, if you're on the correct edge - inside - you should have no problem bringing that around. If you get a chance, take a look at the USFS rulebook; you'll see that that second stroke actually begins that curve where the progressive for your second pattern would begin.

2.) Not sure what to tell you about this. I'm a Pre-Gold level dancer, so most of the younger/lower level skaters watch out for me! ;) Particuarly at the beginning dance levels, I think that you just have to be a little more agressive, especially on a freestyle session where dancers are often outnumbered. I'm not suggesting being outright rude, but you can't stop everytime someone skates near you. You paid for your ice time and you have as much right as anyone else out there to practice and skate where you wish. Once other skaters see that you're not going to move, stop, or adjust your pattern everytime someone skates by, the sooner you'll get the respect and intimidation that you may need to squeeze a pattern in. Believe me, there are days when I can't get a pattern of the Starlight Waltz or Paso in, but I've gotten used to being a little more aggressive and now I can actually get a group of pre-teen girls working on double jumps where my pattern runs through to move. :halo:

3.) There was an extensive topic on crossovers versus progressive (http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=23947), which will probably answer a lot of the questions you have. Believe me, others have had the same questions, and there's a lot of good responses on this thread. ;)

[desabelle]

I'll let you in on a few tricks that got me through my dances..

When your practicing break the dance down into pieces- like say the side is part is broken into two pieces, and then the end pattern is the third piece.

So you pick a piece of the dance you want to work on, and go over to a line. On the line for the first 5 or 6 times going through the pattern you want go VERY slowly and focus on getting as far down in your knees as possible and leaning into the pattern. Judges love when your waltz has lots of lean and lilt.
(Pre-bending usually works pretty well for the waltz) -I forgot to add that you don't want to stay on the line, you want to use it as an axis and try and to make lobes around it.

Once you get really comfortable, making the curves around the line, then you can start focusing on making your steps a little neater, keep in mind you still want to be going very slowly! It seems really tedious and ridiculous but it lets you focus on how the dance should feel and builds muscle memory. You still want to be leaning into the curves, and keeping down in your knees, but now you want to focus on making sure your feet come together on every step, *really really* stretching your freeleg as far as possible, even on the progressives, pointing your toes and the timing and counts of the dance. I used to practice this part really slowly 3 or 4 times and then build up my speed a little each time until it was where I wanted it to be.

I know that sounds really really long and tedious, but for each piece of the dance it only takes about 5 to 10 minutes, and the improvements you will see are incredible.

After finishing that I would run through the whole dance 3 or 4 times all the way through to the music just to build up stamina and make sure you are on time with the music. Just visualize the line down the middle of the ice and you should be good to go!

Good luck!!

[wasabi]

I think others have pretty much answered your questions about fitting in the pattern and progressive vs. crossover.

About doing dance on a crowded freestyle session, though, it's just something you have to deal with. There are some dances that are downright dangerous to do on freestyle sessions (the first half of the Silver Samba, for example, which is comprised entirely a quick backward chasses and swing rolls in alternating directions, and then, to top it off, a completely blind high extension transition into the end pattern!), but with the Dutch Waltz -- especially since it doesn't go backwards at all -- you should be able to do it on even the worst of sessions. Be agressive but polite; most people know, or at least can figure out, the relatively straight-forward pattern and predict, most of the time, where you're going, so say "excuse me" if you see someone in your way that doesn't look like they're paying attention. Even the most aware of skaters sometime need a little reminder! The Dutch Waltz is a great dance to learn this kind of thing (being agressive, dealing with other skaters on) because there aren't really any blind spots, so you're in little danger of hurting yourself or other; besides, as you transitions into faster, quicker dances with backwards sections and less predictable patterns, it's only going to get harder!

Of course, you could always try to find a dance session or skate on a less crowded freestyle (and you may find you need to do this eventually -- when I reached my pre-golds, I had to start taking my dance lessons at 6AM), but you can't always rely on this, and it's good to learn how to navigate crowded sessions regardless.

[SynchroSk8r114]

Of course, you could always try to find a dance session or skate on a less crowded freestyle (and you may find you need to do this eventually -- when I reached my pre-golds, I had to start taking my dance lessons at 6AM), but you can't always rely on this, and it's good to learn how to navigate crowded sessions regardless.

Yep, that's what time I skate! I'm on my Pre-Golds and seriously, this is the best time to skate at my rink. Usually I'm out there alone or there may be one or two other people on the ice with me, but it's so nice because most everybody stays out of each others way. If you're running into someone on a 6 a.m. session at my rink, there's something seriously wrong! ;)

[CanAmSk8ter]

Everyone's mentioned deepening the edges on the end pattern, but think about deepening them up a bit on the long boards too. If the steps along the long boards are deeper and going across the rink a bit more, you won't be quite as far down toward the wall when you get to the end pattern. Does that make sense? I talk to my students about this kind of thing all the time, but I've never really tried to describe it without being able to "show" it.

As far as getting right of way, my experience has been that the more dancers there are on a session, the more likely you are to find other skaters who know where you're going and are willing to yield to you, at least when your music is on. I always had problems with the low-level freestylers who had never done dance and might try to get out of my way but didn't know which way I was going and would sometimes skate right into my way instead. If there are any sessions at your rink that tend to be more heavily "dance", even if they're populated by more advanced dancers, I'd try those.

[jskater49]

Everyone's mentioned deepening the edges on the end pattern, but think about deepening them up a bit on the long boards too. If the steps along the long boards are deeper and going across the rink a bit more, you won't be quite as far down toward the wall when you get to the end pattern. Does that make sense? I talk to my students about this kind of thing all the time, but I've never really tried to describe it without being able to "show" it.

.

Edges and timing are pretty much the name of the game when it comes to dance. I failed this dance with the right steps and perfect timing, but my edges weren't good enough.

j

[blue111moon]

I was told last night that my edges were too strong and too deep and messing up my timing. :)

All those years of figures do come in handy after all, I guess.

[icedancer2]

Everyone's mentioned deepening the edges on the end pattern, but think about deepening them up a bit on the long boards too. If the steps along the long boards are deeper and going across the rink a bit more, you won't be quite as far down toward the wall when you get to the end pattern. Does that make sense? I talk to my students about this kind of thing all the time, but I've never really tried to describe it without being able to "show" it.


This is what I've been thinking the whole time with this discussion - the side pattern most likely needs to be deeper lobes (and therefore better edges) so you are not ending up too far down-rink to get the end pattern in correctly. This is something that will come up in a lot of dances - a problem with one part can very often be fixed by fixing the section that comes before it, if that makes any sense.

The Dutch Waltz is a deceptively difficult dance, despite the fact that it is all forward edges and no turns. I think I've heard that Jerrod Swallow said that if the Dutch were a Gold Dance, no one would pass it!!

As far as finding room, good luck - you are actually lucky that you are allowed to do dance on your freestyle sessions. We generally can do that here, but I have had a coach refuse to let me on the ice on a freestyle session because I was an ice-dancer. I thought this was totally unfair since I know what her freestyle kids are doing and can get out of their way if necessary. I don't expect most of them to know what I am doing with the dance... it really ticked me off especially since it was at 5:30 in the morning and I had gotten up extra early to do that one session the one time... can you tell I'm STILL steamed and that was about 8 years ago????!!!

Good luck with your dances and have fun!:)

[Scarlett]

Thanks for all the advice...I will definitely try to deepen my edges down the sides and along the end pattern. Between that and those deceptively quick progressives this dance really is a bear. The CT and the RB are so much easier. I'll keep you posted. Now if you could just answer the question as to why the dance music is so awful?

[Skate@Delaware]

About doing dance on a crowded freestyle session, though, it's just something you have to deal with. There are some dances that are downright dangerous to do on freestyle sessions (the first half of the Silver Samba, for example, which is comprised entirely a quick backward chasses and swing rolls in alternating directions, and then, to top it off, a completely blind high extension transition into the end pattern!), but with the Dutch Waltz -- especially since it doesn't go backwards at all -- you should be able to do it on even the worst of sessions. Be agressive but polite; most people know, or at least can figure out, the relatively straight-forward pattern and predict, most of the time, where you're going, so say "excuse me" if you see someone in your way that doesn't look like they're paying attention. Even the most aware of skaters sometime need a little reminder! The Dutch Waltz is a great dance to learn this kind of thing (being agressive, dealing with other skaters on) because there aren't really any blind spots, so you're in little danger of hurting yourself or other; besides, as you transitions into faster, quicker dances with backwards sections and less predictable patterns, it's only going to get harder!

You do have to remember you will be dancing on a public session-you really can't expect anyone else there to pay attention to you and what you are doing. You really have to be very cautious and be flexible enough in your pattern to adapt to the traffic flow of the rink. Give a little and dont be a "dance snob" because you ARE on public. I would save the "excuse me" for private ice and be more ready with a "sorry" instead.

I do dance on public ice at two different rinks and have been told not to disrupt the other skaters for "my routine"....it isn't my ice, it's our ice.

[jskater49]

You do have to remember you will be dancing on a public session-you really can't expect anyone else there to pay attention to you and what you are doing. You really have to be very cautious and be flexible enough in your pattern to adapt to the traffic flow of the rink. Give a little and dont be a "dance snob" because you ARE on public. I would save the "excuse me" for private ice and be more ready with a "sorry" instead.

I do dance on public ice at two different rinks and have been told not to disrupt the other skaters for "my routine"....it isn't my ice, it's our ice.


Around here "excuse me" has taken on a rude, snobby conotation. I NEVER say "excuse me" - well once when some little girls were laying on the ice - but that's the meaning of it now - a scolding. "Sorry" or my favorite when it looks like I'm running into someone "OH GOD!"

j

[Mrs Redboots]

Around here "excuse me" has taken on a rude, snobby conotation. I NEVER say "excuse me" - well once when some little girls were laying on the ice - but that's the meaning of it now - a scolding. "Sorry" or my favorite when it looks like I'm running into someone "OH GOD!"

j
Whereas - two different dialects of English - here "Excuse me" couldn't be more polite and has overtones of "Pardon me for breathing!"

[wasabi]

Here excuse me is considered, if not entirely polite, fully necessary -- it avoids a lot of really dangerous accidents that would happen without that little reminder. Scarlett referred to skating on freestyle sessions, which at our rink are private ice, and excuse me would be perfectly appropriate here; I agree that it's downright rude in public sessions, it just didn't seem that that was what she was talking about.

[Skittl1321]

I think in normal life here- excuse me is polite.

But it is so often used with with such a "get out of my way, why are you even on the ice" sort of tone- that "excuse me" isn't great on the ice.

[phoenix]

I think it's also important to remember that the person calling out "excuse me" is usually in the middle of their program/dance pattern. Probably winded, probably trying to focus on what's coming next, & panicked about not running into you. I know that's usually my mindset at that moment. So it can come out sounding exasperated or angry, when it could be that simply they're trying to breathe & scared of hitting you in the throes of trying to skate a good program.

[SynchroSk8r114]

In my 13 years skating and coaching, I've heard it all:

The polite "excuse me"
The snobby I-own-the-ice "excuse me"
The panicked "watch out"
The don't-give-a-crap-about-others "move"
The annoyed-that-anyone-else-is-on-the-ice sigh

Gosh, I could go on forever! I even saw a skater once take a marker and literally section off a whole area of ice in a corner so that she could practice double lutzes! This girl even had the nerve to write in big letters "Sara's jumping spot." 8O She apparently didn't want anyone else getting in her way while she was practicing. So, from skaters zoning off private spots on the ice to two female senior freestylers purposely trying to take each other out during their programs, I have seen it all...and thank God, lived to tell about it! :lol:

[jskater49]

I think in normal life here- excuse me is polite.

But it is so often used with with such a "get out of my way, why are you even on the ice" sort of tone- that "excuse me" isn't great on the ice.

That's what I meant - in every day life - "Excuse me" is polite. On the ice - it's "Get the hell out of my way"

j

[Mrs Redboots]

Here, it's usually MIND OUT! And when someone is carrying someone else upside down in one hand, you do.....

[SynchroSk8r114]

Here, it's usually MIND OUT! And when someone is carrying someone else upside down in one hand, you do.....

Yes, but I think there's a difference between being downright rude and yelling loudly/sternly enough for someone to move so that they don't get hurt, as in the case of many pairs skaters. The pairs teams we have at my rink will often give a little warning when they begin a lift because (it's a shame to say this, but...) we have coaches who don't even move or teach their young, beginning skaters common ice courtesty. More often than not, their warning comes in the form of just saying the person who they need to move name loudly enough followed by a 'thank you!' Seems to work pretty well where I'm from...

[Skate@Delaware]

Yeah, being winded and trying to bleat out a loud "EXCUSE ME" to a clueless little girl is hard....I have resorted to a bellowing 'MOVE' from time to time......it gets their attention, gets them moving out of my way. I do go up to them after my lesson and explain WHY i did it, WHAT ice ettiquite is etc.

The problem we have? Most of them haven't read about the rules-their parents have and have given them a watered-down version....these kids never read the handout.

Our solution? We are going to have orientation at the beginning of each season to go over the rules. Better than nothing.

But during public, all you can do is say "sorry" if you accidentally bump someone.

[Scarlett]

I was referring to crowded freestyle sessions. I think they are called patch sessions outside the states. I was just trying to get ideas as to how one actually practices the dances.

As for the excuse me issue, it is really rink dependent. I skate at 3-4 different rinks. At one of them the excuse me is a snotty move, the other 2 are fairly laid back and at the fourth rink we have a couple of elite skaters. We just all move to the boards for their programs which they may run through once in a freestyle session and for everyone else we just pay attention and if you do get in the way...a well placed sorry goes a long way.

[Skate@Delaware]

I was referring to crowded freestyle sessions. I think they are called patch sessions outside the states. I was just trying to get ideas as to how one actually practices the dances.

As for the excuse me issue, it is really rink dependent. I skate at 3-4 different rinks. At one of them the excuse me is a snotty move, the other 2 are fairly laid back and at the fourth rink we have a couple of elite skaters. We just all move to the boards for their programs which they may run through once in a freestyle session and for everyone else we just pay attention and if you do get in the way...a well placed sorry goes a long way.
Well that makes sense. I know from experience that each rink has different "tones" as far as the "excuse me"....and a lot of skaters DON'T know the dance patterns (c'mon, even I don't know them and I've been working on them forever 8O )....

What I do, if there is time, is ask the dancers where I can go to be out of their way. They appreciate the courtesy, I appreciate not getting run over too! and when it's time for my turn at running through my program, I usually get more compliance to yielding. Tit-for-tat.

[phoenix]

What I do, if there is time, is ask the dancers where I can go to be out of their way. They appreciate the courtesy, I appreciate not getting run over too! and when it's time for my turn at running through my program, I usually get more compliance to yielding. Tit-for-tat.

That is great!! If you did that w/ me, I'd love you forever, and yes, probably be much more aware of watching out for you as well. Dance patterns are totally inflexible--you can't just swerve around someone. If they're in the way, you have to bail & start all over again. My issue is skaters/coaches that don't seem to get that I'm coming through *right here* every. single. time. After several times of having to bail out, I do tend to approach the person (often a coach!), and try to say nicely, "If you could just move 10 feet this way, I'd be able to come through here w/ my pattern." :frus: :frus:

[jskater49]

At least with dance, at our club, you play your music and you wear a vest and you get the same right away as someone doing a program (otherwise you just make do like everyone else) - but what I find difficult is doing moves - you never seem to get the right away -supposedly if you are in a lesson, but that doesn't always work out. I've been tempted to put on music when I do moves just so I can wear a vest and get a pattern in at least once in a session!

j

[Mrs Redboots]

This morning we had to practice our step sequence, and one of the coaches was standing in exactly the wrong place, so I said "Let's try not to take out (his name), but I don't suppose it'll matter if we do!" So he moved....

[altamaleskater]

As someone who's testing the Dutch Waltz in 4 days, I have to say....I know exactly what you mean! It has taken close to a year to get my Dutch Waltz ready for testing and if it wasn't for the test chair making a mistake with booking times, I'd have had it almost 2 months ago. Running out of room on my Dutch Waltz pattern was a frequent problem early on. My coach was telling me to try & cut it down, especially at the last progressive & swing roll. Once I started working with a partner it became easier to cut the pattern down more.