backward 3 turns, I cannot do them

[ouijaouija]

I have a few books telling me in detail how to do them, but I can not do them, only a few times, and then I fall over pretty terribly and then after falling over I can't do any at all, as I am afraid of falling again.

Exactly what pasrt of the blade am I usin to turn, the 'sweet spot'? As the few times i have done it I have used the back of the blade?

Thanks all, this is annoying me

[Skittl1321]

I'll let someone who knows more technically what they are doing to tell you what part of the blade.

But I tell you the thing that works the best for me (and I love backward 3s- at least outside ones!)- prerotate, prerotate, prerotate! If your head, shoulders, and hips are all rotated, your feet have NO choice but to come with you. It's like no work at all! The inside ones are harder for me, as I tend to have my weight too far back and catch the tail of my blade- but it's the same thing. If your body is in the correct position, it has to turn.

[jskater49]

You want to be more on the back of your blade. Have you tried it on two feet first? I was taught to do this with arms the opposite of how you have them for crossovers and really back sure your shoulders are stretched --not that I can do them well, but I just reviewed these so I remember what she told me...but make sure you can do them smoothly on two feet first then practice holding your back edge and make sure you look in the direction you are turning.

j

[icenut84]

Exactly what pasrt of the blade am I usin to turn, the 'sweet spot'? As the few times i have done it I have used the back of the blade?

The actual turn is towards the back of the blade (you won't be able to turn if you're too far forward). The sweet spot you refer to is under the ball of the foot, but you turn a little further back than that. Remember to keep your knee soft (don't have your leg too straight, your knee should be a little bent), and like the others have said, pre-rotate your body first (arms, head, upper body, hip - it makes it easier). The turn itself will happen quite quickly (it has to in order to be smooth). You don't have to actually have your weight on your heel or anything (you'd probably topple over), it just moves back towards the heel at the moment of the turn.

Hope that helps

[dbny]

Which ones are you trying, Inside or Outside? Outsides are generally easier. You can work on a BO three by doing a FI three, then move your freeleg over your skating toe, rotate your shoulders, sit on the blade just behind the ball of the foot, bend your knee and turn. Keep your thighs pressed together.

[sk8_4fun]

I don't know if this will help, but yesterday my coach was trying to teach me these, and I as really wasn't getting it, he had me edging sideways up the blue line, on two feet, shifting the weight on the front, then the back of the blades, then the front, then the back etc.... It worked for me, as after weeks of terror I actually succeeded in doing an inside one.:D

[Jeanne D]

Back 3s will only be as good as your back outside edges. Practice gliding backwards on the back outside edge, don't think about turning it. Try to get comfortable with that edge first. I always warm up my BO3s with back outside edge exercises.

Think "sit" on the edge and don't let your upper body pitch forward or backwards, freeze and find your core strength. Try to bend your ankle. When the turn happens your weight will be further back on the blade.

Good advise from another poster about trying it on two feet.

Good luck!

[miraclegro]

Well, this helped me a lot. Think of almost "lifting" the front of the blade gentlyand placing it the opposite direction, keeping your balance, and using your shoulders to control you. That helped me a lot.

[Derek]

All good comments here, I intended to add my own, but realised that it had already been said.

[Joan]

Practice the turns on a hockey circle, on two feet. Try to slightly weight one foot a little more than the other and notice what you feel as you turn.

[ouijaouija]

Hi all, thanks for the replies.

Another questoin. ABout the prerotation thing, it is a case of actually using the momentum turn of the upper body first, to instigate the 3 turn, or by prerotation do you mean your body should already be in the position to turn, and that the turn is not helped by momentum of the upper body?

I find prerotation difficult when skating backwards

ANyone know what I mean?

For example, when I am doing forward 3 turns you can let the upper bodys momentum do the turn for you, or you can be prerotated and then just turn your lower body by the hips?

[Skittl1321]

Hi all, thanks for the replies.

Another questoin. ABout the prerotation thing, it is a case of actually using the turn of the body first, to instigate the 3 turn, or by prerotation do you mean your body should already be in the position to turn, and that the turn is not helped by momentum of the upper body?

ANyone know what I mean?

For example, when I am doing forward 3 turns you can let the upper bodys momentum do the turn for you, or you can be prerotated and then just turn your lower body by the hips?

I honestly don't know the physics behind it -so I'm going to tell you what it feels like for me.

For forward 3 turns- the motion of my arms goes with my hips and "helps" the turn like you said.
For backward 3 turns- my upper body is completely rotated into position before I turn, so it doesn't "help" me turn, however, it does help me in that, because my upper body is so far forward my lower body has no CHOICE but to turn with it.

(I am however still doing backward 3s at a low speed, so I have time for complete prerotation)

[SynchroSk8r114]

I don't think prerotation is necessary. I tell my students about using the pressure of their blade on the ice. For back insides especially, you should put a little more pressure on the ice while sitting back toward the back of your blade (your skating knee slightly bent so you don't fall) then ease up on your blade with a slight rise in your knee, which will create the turn for you. That results in less work and less problems from prerotation (i.e., twisting, inproper alignment, etc.).

[Skate@Delaware]

Great tips!!! I have to tackle these again when we get ice in September. Back-3's are required for ISI Freestyle 3 test.....8O the dreaded footwork section!

I'm not allowed to do 3-turns pre-rotated at all. I'm supposed to control them with my legs, feet, etc but not allow my shoulders/upper body to influence them. Sounds good in theory! As far as actual practice.....needs more work! (major fear factor here!) I do them 2-footed for now.

[Jeanne D]

I'm not allowed to do 3-turns pre-rotated at all. I'm supposed to control them with my legs, feet, etc but not allow my shoulders/upper body to influence them. Sounds good in theory! As far as actual practice.....needs more work! (major fear factor here!) I do them 2-footed for now.

I didn't feel comfortable giving any advice about upper body on 3s, now I know why! Thinking about it and trying to remember what it feels like when I'm doing them....yes, the leg, knee, ankle, blade must make the turn happen.

I guess it's hip to be square.

[jskater49]

Great tips!!! I have to tackle these again when we get ice in September. Back-3's are required for ISI Freestyle 3 test.....8O the dreaded footwork section!

I'm not allowed to do 3-turns pre-rotated at all. I'm supposed to control them with my legs, feet, etc but not allow my shoulders/upper body to influence them. Sounds good in theory! As far as actual practice.....needs more work! (major fear factor here!) I do them 2-footed for now.

Yes the prerotated forward 3 turn is why I have to relearn my half flip. You try that baby pre-rotated and you are twisting all over the place!

j

[liz_on_ice]

Great tips!!! I have to tackle these again when we get ice in September. Back-3's are required for ISI Freestyle 3 test.....8O the dreaded footwork section!

I'm not allowed to do 3-turns pre-rotated at all. I'm supposed to control them with my legs, feet, etc but not allow my shoulders/upper body to influence them. Sounds good in theory! As far as actual practice.....needs more work! (major fear factor here!) I do them 2-footed for now.

You mean Freestyle 4, no? I'm working on FS3 and the 9-step only has mohawks front and back.

-Liz

[Skate@Delaware]

You mean Freestyle 4, no? I'm working on FS3 and the 9-step only has mohawks front and back.

-Liz
AAAHHHH!!! senior moment!!!!! Yes, that is what I meant. DOH! :frus: Man, my coach would KILL me if I blew off the FS3 test....I actually LIKED the step-pattern (I called it "the dancy thing") :roll:

[SkatingOnClouds]

I'm not allowed to do 3-turns pre-rotated at all. I'm supposed to control them with my legs, feet, etc but not allow my shoulders/upper body to influence them. Sounds good in theory! As far as actual practice.....needs more work! (major fear factor here!) I do them 2-footed for now.

Yeah, I learned to do 3 turns the old figure way, which always involved the pre-rotation. Now my coach is trying to get me out of the habit, especially for salchows and flips, and now on back 3s as well. :roll:

It ain't easy to get out of the habit of pre-rotating, so I would recommend learning without it if you can.

[doubletoe]

Oops, double post.

[doubletoe]

Hi all, thanks for the replies.

Another questoin. ABout the prerotation thing, it is a case of actually using the momentum turn of the upper body first, to instigate the 3 turn, or by prerotation do you mean your body should already be in the position to turn, and that the turn is not helped by momentum of the upper body?

I find prerotation difficult when skating backwards

ANyone know what I mean?

For example, when I am doing forward 3 turns you can let the upper bodys momentum do the turn for you, or you can be prerotated and then just turn your lower body by the hips?


Pre-rotation means the pre-rotation of of the head and shoulders in the direction you will be turning. For a back inside 3-turn that's being used to set up a jump entry (like a RBO3-mohawk-salchow), you want to be careful not to pre-rotate too much. However, when you do the back 3's (Silver) or the Back double 3's (Gold/Intermediate) for your MIF tests, prerotating is both correct and very helpful. Here's how to do it on a hockey circle, with the turn at the top of the circle (3:00 for CW back 3's, 9:00 for CCW back 3's).

Let's assume you are doing a CW back 3-turn (either a RBI or a LBO).
-You will start at the top of the circle (12:00) and push off onto the edge.
-Until you pass 1:00 you will be looking inside the circle with your chest facing inside the circle and your arms "hugging" the circle (i.e., right in front, left in back).
- After passing 1:00, gently turn your head to the right so you are looking outside the circle and over your right shoulder.
- After you start to turn your head, gently scissor your arms so that the right arm scissors back and the left arm scissors to the front. Keep them low and close to the body so you are just scissoring them back to front, not swinging them.
- When you reach 3:00, your chest should be facing outside the circle and you should be able to see the 5:00 point of the circle. Now make sure your shoulders are level, bend your ankle deeply and execute the turn. For a RBI, you'll feel like you're pressing the inside of your ankle down toward the ice and for a LBO you'll feel like you're pressing the outside ankle down toward the ice. I like to keep my free foot low and in front for back outsides, but I keep it right at the heel of my skating foot on back insides. It's really a matter of what's comfortable for you.
- Notice that your arms and shoulders stay exactly where they are during the turn, and only your lower body turns. On the exit of the turn, you are now traveling forward, but your chest still faces the outside of the circle with your back to the circle.
- For CCW 3-turns (RBO or LBI turns), start at 12:00 on the circle, looking into the circle until you've passed 11:00, gently turn the head to face outside the circle, gently scissor the arms so your chest faces outside the circle by the time you reach 9:00. When you reach 9:00 and can see the 7:00 spot on the circle, bend the ankle and execute the turn.

[CanadianAdult]

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=316
Look at Silver 3 for back insides and Silver 4 for back outsides. The back outsides are almost done exactly to doubletoe's description. Hat's off to the demonstrator for doing these.

And then there's this, of course a more advanced skill, but the skater rolls through the turn. My, um, second skills coach taught back threes this way, not so much as a defined movement of the arms, but a roll around the outside of the circle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igUkC7MMyxc

Hmm, here's the short versions of my back 3 turn education:
Coach #1: Look at your leading hand (very figurey pre-rotation style)
Coach # 2: Rooolll your arms around (fabulous ice dance coach)
Coach # 3: Down, up down, Square, Square! (not a pre-rotation fan).


slightly unrelated, I was looking for youtube video of 3 turns, I found a nice Canadian Preliminary Skills test. The skater lucked out and got a forward circle (as did I when I did them, yeeessss! ) but her 3's and mohawks are nicely done. Very different in terms of speed and flow compared to MITF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rqmw7hk5w Thank you whoever you are for putting yourself on Youtube 8-)

[renatele]

And then there's this, of course a more advanced skill, but the skater rolls through the turn. My, um, second skills coach taught back threes this way, not so much as a defined movement of the arms, but a roll around the outside of the circle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igUkC7MMyxc

Ah, but you should have mentioned that there is still a bunch of things wrong with these (still too much prerotation and too early turns/not deep enough BO edge for my former coach's liking, bending forwards after the turn, etc); they are a work in progress ;)

[Jeanne D]

re: back power 3s

The way these are taught on my MITF videos is interesting. If you can picture the way back crossovers are done, with a reach into the circle and pull for power. That's recommended on back power 3s. Yikes.

[CanadianAdult]

they are a work in progress ;)

Oh but they look nice ;) I was impressed. Coaches will be what coaches will be.

I was taught inside threes from a crossover step, I couldn't do it and hated it. Now I'm liking it, because it provides a down pre-load and you step right on the part of the blade that you'll turn on if you do your crosscut properly, then it's a matter of going up and then onto that outside edge (I like the mental image of ankle pressing into the ice) to make the turn. But I had to take a journey through the hallowed halls of pre-rotated figures threes first. I'm still not confident with any of them.

[icedancer2]

I LOVE that in Canada you do your skills with music.

I wish we had that. There is nothing weirder than skating in your rink, all alone on a test, with no music playing... (scrape, scrape...)

[Skate@Delaware]

My first coach taught pre-rotation but all it did was mess me up...not knowing then that the turn occurs from the hips down...I could not DO 3-turns correctly for the longest time! It slowed me down for toe-loops and salchows.

My current coach is great at explaining where the pressure occurs and where my body parts need to be....at each step! She is fixing things. She also has me do stuff without benefit of my arms helping me-I cross them over my chest and skate. 3-turns, spins, etc. It helps.

she doesn't want me SWINGING arms for everything but do them correctly with arms/shoulder assisting, which is very different!!!