Coaches: Dealing With a "Difficult" Skater?

[SynchroSk8r114]

Pleeeeease tell me other coaches are experiencing this too::frus:

I've got a private lesson skater who is just the absolute worst to teach! She has the most horrible attitude (eye-rolling, argues with me on-ice, won't do what I ask of her, back talks, tells me she's doing the correct technique when I know she's not, pretty much looks like she doesn't want to skate, etc.). She's 12 years old, so I know that that plays into some of this. (Gotta love those pre-teen years!) And while I can take a bit of a 'tude, I am not about to put up with a 12 year old mouthing off to me! It's not worth what I'm charging per hour to deal with that crap...

Other coaches at my rink have noticed this too. Unfortunately, the girl's parents don't because...well, quite honestly, they never watch or when they do watch, she isn't as difficult. And I don't think if they watched her reguarly it would help - they think it's cute and funny when she acts that way. I mean, she's the same way to her parents and they just laugh it off. Well, I don't find her as funny. :x

This girl never practices - ever! - and I don't know when the last time she had her skates sharpened was, despite the fact that I tell her and her parents weekly that she needs to take care of her blades and get to the rink at least once a week to practice. Her mother even had the nerve to ask me why her kid's not testing her freestyle and Preliminary MIF! Well, sorry, but an hour lesson a week (that is when they don't cancel) is not enough, in my honest opinion, esp. when we spend seriously 25 minutes arguing. :frus:

Oh, and the best part? She will write me these thank-you notes following competitons and test sessions saying things like, "I love skating," "You're the best coach," "Thanks for your help," etc. Huh?! This from the same kid who gives me hell on the ice! You'd swear the girl doesn't want to skate and then she gives me these kind of notes?! I don't get it. Even other coaches have been like, "What's with her? Does she even want to be here?" God, if only her parents knew how much money they're wasting...

I've tried ignoring her attitude and smart remarks, giving her the same kind of treatment, have mentioned it to her parents, and have gone so far as to threaten to leave her lesson. How do y'all deal with this? Please help! :frus:

[jskater49]

I'm not a coach but our former coach had a student like that and she simply dropped her. Wasn't worth it. Her mom had a fit and emailed everyone in the club but we'd seen how her daughter behaved and ignored the emails. If you think you are going to change that behavior...you aren't.

But about the not practicing - I'm friendl with my coach and she told me how a less experienced coach complained to her that her student wasn't practicing and she told her that she can't care more than her student. Sounded like good advice to me.

You cannot control other people. All you can control is how you will respond and what you will put up with.

j

[CanadianAdult]

Have a meeting with the parents and skater and draw up a contract. Not so much about behaviour but about results and goals. ergo, good behaviour will lead to these results. So, for every lesson the skater will be warmed up and ready to go. A progression of skills (yearly plan) will be discussed at this meeting so that the skater knows that when they get their lesson the goal is to be working on, let's say, brackets. Any pouting, sorry, lesson is over. Keep this all in a notebook, the skater brings the notebook to every session, and the skater is going to keep track of when they've practiced, even a little bit. You'll write a note in on every lesson, ie covered RFI brackets. I don't expect a skater is going to write detailed notes, but I've got one skater who has a tick list, it says 10 spins, 10 toe loops etc, and he just ticks that he's done them. He might have done one, but he's aware of the responsibility of his list.

In the end, your 12 year old girl just might not be into it, but at least you've shown that you are a professional and expect the same courtesy. You'll have days when there's not much of a lesson, it's up to you if you bill for the entire time, I probably would bill the time used or a minimum 15 minutes if I cut it short. If you're still together in three months, have a meeting with skater and parents again and praise the skater. You'll never change the behaviour, but you've nicely tracked why you end up dropping the skater if you did, and both the parents and the skater will know.

This isn't my coaching advise per se, I come from a rink culture where if you're late you're doing push ups and extra laps (yes even me, the old lady) so no one would ever get away with any of that kind of behaviour of your 12 year old. This "employee management" advise is from my employer. It's how we deal with people who aren't doing well on the job. Make a plan to improve, and if they either can't improve or can't follow the plan, they're gone. Obviously, adapted for the hormonal pre-teen behaviour of a 12 year old where eye-rolling is mandatory. Putting up with some of that is what's what they pay us the big bucks for.

[doofsy]

You just have to be firm.... Just like a school teacher would do, you just have to show her who's the adult and be consistent. If you warn her that the lesson will end if she continues, and she does, you have to end the lesson...and do the same thing every time. I had one kid who used to pull the same stuff as your kid all the time (but also crying and tantrums) and it took a solid month of 5-7 minute lessons for her to realize that she would never have a full lesson if she didn't shape up... and she did. Now she's incredibly well behaved with me because she knows the second she pulls any of her crap she's on her own. Luckily, her parents were totally on board with the plan and supported it. Worst case scenario, she quits or switches coaches.... but if she's causing you that much grief, it might not really be a big loss. You just have to stand up for yourself..... you're there to teach this kid how to skate, not to teach her social/behavioral skills. The parents will probably respect you for it. Good luck!

[phoenix]

ITA with doofsy. If she cannot/will not respect you, it's time to boot her out until she can. It isn't worth your time/aggravation. Tell her firmly that she's to behave with courtesy and focus during your lessons. And that if she doesn't the lesson will end. Period.

Being 12 doesn't give you a free pass to be a jerk.

Make sure you explain to the parents, either before or after said booting (your call), and make it known both to her and them that you will not tolerate that kind of behavior any more.

Good luck!! I know it must be difficult.

[littlekateskate]

As a parent I see nothing wrong with dropping the student. Give her and her parents a few months. If they are desperate and want a second chance then i would give them one. And start charging her for cancelled lesson and ask for a months pay in advance!

I am a parent who cares though so maybe it wont affect them. Good Luck!!

[icemom60]

As Dr. Phil would say, "You teach people how to treat you."

Don't put up with it. Life's too short.

[Virtualsk8r]

Sometimes drawing the line is necessary with such a child. A twelve year old girl is perfectly capable of behaving and understanding consequences. My advice -- next lesson speak to her in a quiet, but visably public corner of the ice, gloves on and keep your distance - just in case. Tell her that while you enjoy teaching her when she listens, you are being paid to help her learn to skate and become the best skater she can be. But you are not paid to take her abuse and lack of respect for you. Be firm but friendly. Then inform the child that from now on, you will walk away from your lessons with her if she does not show respect, and if there is attitude you will kick her off the ice until she can learn to behave. And, her parents will be charged for the entire lesson. (sometimes that scares the kids because $ is important).

Then, continue with your lesson plan with her and be professional. Chances are the skater will be stunned and will do what she is told - even though there will be some attitude.

Next lesson, if things don't improve talk to the parents and lay down the law.

Skaters that take up too much of your non-coaching time and thoughts -- are just not worth the it in the end.

Been there - done that - and in most cases it worked.

[CanadianAdult]

Although it's tempting, I don't think it is the best idea to drop a skater without considering all the implications. In many clubs a skater is required to have a coach, ie to "belong" to someone, and if the skater is dropped and no one will touch her, they're essentially barred from stepping on the ice. It's a last resort, of course.

[SynchroSk8r114]

Although it's tempting, I don't think it is the best idea to drop a skater without considering all the implications. In many clubs a skater is required to have a coach, ie to "belong" to someone, and if the skater is dropped and no one will touch her, they're essentially barred from stepping on the ice. It's a last resort, of course.

Yeah, I'm not really for dropping the girl as her parents are great to me other than the frequent cancelling of lessons, which I do charge for (unless cancelled with a 24 hr. notice). They pay me an additional fee for competitions and test session, which I don't ask for and are generally good to me. So, what I'm looking for are more tips on how to put up with their daughter...

And yes, my rink is one that requires private skaters to have a coach; and I know for a fact that no one else is going to take her based on her attitude and seemingly lack of desire to skate, so I'm not too worried about that.

[Query]

I'm NOT a coach, but...

I remember one coach who taught by showing entire complex moves, which doesn't work for me, and wouldn't or coudn't break moves down or describe what he was doing. He was a very good coach for some other people. Just not for me.

Maybe she really doesn't get what you are teaching, so can't practice it.

My suggestions: If you are sure that isn't it, you need not try getting too tough. She has to learn to deal with other human beings in a good way. Try pouting and act like a poor put upon little girl/boy and ask her not to be so mean to you.

If that doesn't work, kids love testing boundaries. They push the limits to find out where they are. I suggest you see if you can find a way to be tough and a subtle at the same time, letting her know where the boundary of acceptable behavour is, without cutting her off. Done right, she will respect you without resentment, and learn a life lesson that goes way beyond skating.

Think of it as a test of your own people management skills.

[CanAmSk8ter]

I've only been coaching a bit longer than you have, and I haven't (knock on wood) had a student like this myself, but there are two things that popped into my head.

1. As far as the back talk, when you want her to do something, make sure you're telling her to do it, not asking her to, or "suggesting" it; i.e. rather than saying "Why don't we do your waltz eight next?" or "I'd like to see the waltz eight first, ok?" just say, "Ok, show me your waltz eight." With some kids, suggesting is fine, but with one who will resist or argue, you don't want to give them the opening. If she resists, stop her in her tracks and remind her, "I'm the adult. We're doing X now," or even, "I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. Let me see your..."

2. Have you tried videotaping her? She may honestly *think* she's doing things correctly, but when you can show her exactly what she's doing and how it's different from what you want, that may get her to stop saying she's doing things right when you tell her otherwise.

Edited to add, definitely don't threaten to leave the lesson unless you plan to follow through. Kids pick up on empty threats really quickly, and will just tune them out after they've figured out that you're not serious. She's old enough to be given one warning- if her attitude doesn't change after that, end the lesson!

Also, if the parents ask about testing again, tell them they're crazy ;) Seriously, by Prelim, she absolutely should be getting to the rink between lessons. Skating once a week for a lesson is recreational skating, which is fine, but testing and recreational skating require different levels of commitment. I know I'd have to think long and hard about signing a test form for a kid who's skating once a week.

[skaternum]

My suggestions: If you are sure that isn't it, you need not try getting too tough. She has to learn to deal with other human beings in a good way. Try pouting and act like a poor put upon little girl/boy and ask her not to be so mean to you. Are you kidding?? Pouting and acting like a poor put upon little girl? Ask her not to be so mean to you? That is too childish to be believable. No self-respecting coach should behave in such an unprofessional manner with a student.

[Ellyn]

This girl never practices - ever! - and I don't know when the last time she had her skates sharpened was, despite the fact that I tell her and her parents weekly that she needs to take care of her blades and get to the rink at least once a week to practice. Her mother even had the nerve to ask me why her kid's not testing her freestyle and Preliminary MIF! Well, sorry, but an hour lesson a week (that is when they don't cancel) is not enough, in my honest opinion, esp. when we spend seriously 25 minutes arguing. :frus:

She skates for an hour a week in lesson and that's the only time she's on the ice all week?

I don't have suggestions about the behavior in general, but if you want to encourage her to practice maybe you could tell her parents that your schedule (starting in August or September) doesn't allow you to teach her for an hour at a time, but you can give her two half-hour lessons a week on different days. That way she'd at least have the rest of the session to practice. And if it turns out that traveling to the rink twice a week is too much of a burden for this family, that's something you need to know and they need to take into account when evaluating her progress.

[Query]

>Are you kidding?? Pouting and acting like a
>poor put upon little girl? Ask her not to
>be so mean to you? That is too childish to
>be believable. No self-respecting coach should
>behave in such an unprofessional manner
>with a student.

If it ain't fun it shouldn't be done.

i.e., if you can't sometimes behave like a kid, many kids can't relate to you. I often watch coaches teach. The best ones learn to play the child's games.

I pity students of coaches who take everything too seriously. Fun is good.

There is another approach. Ask the child why she responds the way she does. If she doesn't understand the instructions, or they make no sense to her, the way it is taught may need to change. If it hurts, that usually means something is wrong - like maybe she isn't flexible enough or strong enough to do it that way. If she says she is just playing a game, help her find other games to play. Asking her for analysis forces her to take some responsibility for the way she behaves, and may be a good thing.

[jskater49]

>Are you kidding?? Pouting and acting like a
>poor put upon little girl? Ask her not to
>be so mean to you? That is too childish to
>be believable. No self-respecting coach should
>behave in such an unprofessional manner
>with a student.

If it ain't fun it shouldn't be done.

i.e., if you can't sometimes behave like a kid, many kids can't relate to you. I often watch coaches teach. The best ones learn to play the child's games.

I pity students of coaches who take everything too seriously. Fun is good.

There is another approach. Ask the child why she responds the way she does. If she doesn't understand the instructions, or they make no sense to her, the way it is taught may need to change. If it hurts, that usually means something is wrong - like maybe she isn't flexible enough or strong enough to do it that way. If she says she is just playing a game, help her find other games to play. Asking her for analysis forces her to take some responsibility for the way she behaves, and may be a good thing.


I have to say, I thought your suggestions were rather outragous myself- skatemum just said what I didn't have the guts to post. You can be fun, but also draw a line as to who is the adult and who is the child. Children need adults to be adults.

The reason the child is back talking is because she can. She has not been taught that it is not appropriate. Children back talk because they have been treated like equals when they are not equals. They are children who need adults to teach and protect them. I do not share the optimism that she can be taught to behave differently by anyone other than her parents.

j

[UDsk8coach]

As Dr. Phil would say, "You teach people how to treat you."

Don't put up with it. Life's too short.

Agreed!! Drop the kid, and when no one else picks her up, maybe her parents will realize that their kid is a PITA... well, here's hoping at least!

[lov2sk8]

As a coach you need to be respected. If my old coach got any back talk he told you to get off the ice till you can act like a lady. My point is you don't leave the lesson they do. Till they can come back on the ice and behave in an appropriate manner. By the way you still get paid.

[skaternum]

f it ain't fun it shouldn't be done.

i.e., if you can't sometimes behave like a kid, many kids can't relate to you. I often watch coaches teach. The best ones learn to play the child's games.There's a difference between playing the child's games and acting like a child. NO COACH should act like a child. This is ridiculous. It is perfectly okay to expect children to behave.

I pity students of coaches who take everything too seriously.So clearly you think requiring a minimal standard of respectful behavior is taking it too seriously. I pity the students of people like you don't behave like adults. Even as I child, I had no respect for people like you.

I taught dance for years. I expected my students to behave in class, pay attention, and be respectful. They had a good time and loved me. They all wanted to get into my classes. Believe it or not, children actually do want and need structure and discipline.

[Tennisany1]

... Believe it or not, children actually do want and need structure and discipline.

This is so true! I heard a story told at a parenting seminar many years ago. I can't remember who was speaking, but what she said has stuck with me ever since.

She said that life and growing up is like crossing a very long bridge over a very deep canyon. Kids who have strong guard rails on both sides of the bridge tend to cross confidently. They peer over both sides and see all there is to see. Kids who have no guard rails tend to stick to the middle and cross tentively, without see much except that which is straight ahead.

I strongly believe that this applies when kids are learning new skills. They need to know the rules and learn the technique so that they can be confident breaking the rules and developing their own style.

[Query]

>>I pity students of coaches who take everything
>>too seriously.

[skaternum said]
>...I pity the students of people like you don't
>behave like adults. Even as I child, I had no
>respect for people like you.

Touché! Very nicely put.

But, let me give an example of where it worked to some extant. I'm an entry level kayak instructor for a company whose policy it is to discourage splash fights.

One family kept splashing each other, parents included. I tried gentle discouragement. I tried interposing myself between the splash warriors. They stopped when I was there, resumed when I left for other students. They called me "policeman".

Finally I went up to the mom, as she splashed her daughter, and gave her a couple very effective splashes. They were both quite annoyed. I had violated my own rule. Hypocrite!

I explained. Inexperienced splashers do the obvious, and dig in with their paddles from underneath, leaning into it, and often tip over. Experienced paddlers can splash more effectively in ways that provide support, as I explained and demonstrated.

I offered a rules change. They could splash each other, but they had to do it right.

They stopped splashing. All the fun of the forbidden activity was gone.

I felt rather guilty about this vaguely unethical behavior. But my co-instructor later explained he had done essentially the same with the other half of the group. Same results. So it worked for both of us. I'm still not sure it was the right thing to do. We have a safety-related obligation for effective group management. But did it interfere with the customers' happiness, another obligation?

Regardless, I meant what I said earlier. Kids need to test behavioral boundaries. They want and expect to have those boundaries pointed out and gently enforced, and will not resent a teacher who does so. (Would a child psychologist say a child who doesn't get such guidance from her parents might seek it from teachers?) [I]I wasn't proposing long term childish behaviour, just a little in the short term to underscore the lesson in a gentle way. Showing anger at a student, or dropping her without fair warning, are truly childish responses, and show that you have lost control of both yourself and the situation.

I think that deserves no one's respect. But perhaps my point of view is different than yours.

I've seen one coach yell at students, old and young. It seems abusive, and most people I've discussed it with consider the coach dangerously unstable.

I've seen other coaches who were high level competitors, and are eager to coach other high level competitors. They drop anyone who doesn't meet the grade. Word has gotten round, and to some extant they now have trouble finding new students.

The original poster clearly wishes to insure she/he isn't viewed either way.

Maybe I am wrong. I am not a skating coach, and have not worked with the student or her parents.

[jskater49]

[I said]
II've seen one coach yell at students, old and young. It seems abusive, and most people I've discussed it with consider the coach dangerously unstable.

I've seen other coaches who were high level competitors, and are eager to coach other high level competitors. They drop anyone who doesn't meet the grade. Word has gotten round, and to some extant they now have trouble finding new students.

The original poster clearly wishes to insure she/he isn't viewed either way.

Maybe I am wrong. I am not a skating coach, and have not worked with the student or her parents.

There is not one post here suggesting she yell at the student. Nor is there any advise that she drop the student for not "Making the grade" The suggestion is that she drop her if she doesn't change her behavior. Obviously the OP has tried "gentle correction" The coach I know that drops badly behaving children has no trouble finding students. Her students love her. They joke around with her. But they don't cross the line.

j

[SynchroSk8r114]

The coach I know that drops badly behaving children has no trouble finding students. Her students love her. They joke around with her. But they don't cross the line.
j

This is how the majority of my other skaters are; they can joke around, have fun, but we still accomplish something, which is how skating should be: fun, but with the rewards that come with discipline, focus, and hard work. :)

I actually wanted to give everyone an update. I've taken everything each of you has posted into consideration. I just finished up my August newsletter (I send newsletters out monthly/bi-monthly), which outlines my fall schedule, my cancelation policy (that will be enforced strictly beginning September 1st - see why below...), and a whole write-up on the importance of practice and self-motivation, and using a skater's notebook, which I'll give to each one of my students starting in September. (For those of who who've been responding to my other thread on this - thanks so much for the great ideas! :D)

As for this particular student, she's canceled her lesson (at the last minute! :frus:) three times in July. I think I saw her once the whole month...I missed a week for vacation, but she has canceled every week because she's either sick or someone can't bring her or she had other plans she forgot about, etc., hence the strictly enforced cancelation policy reminder in my newsletter. I sat down and figured out how much money I'm losing out on whenever she cancels and it's ridiculous! So, as of September 1st, I'm also increasing my rate...I don't get paid enough to put up with this. Hopefully that'll motivate her parents to find the courtesy to call more than ten minutes before I'm about to walk out the door. :roll: If not, they're going to be paying me a nice hunk of change when they conveniently "can't make it to lessons today." I'm done being taken advantage of, and if they don't like this policy, they can walk...

Again, thanks for all your input everybody! :D

[jskater49]

Our first coach - you paid for every lesson, whether you showed up or not...if you went on vacation, even if you broke your leg, you sold your lesson or you paid yourself.

Our coach now will give you a break for vacations or broken legs, but if, like my dd, you didn't show up because you forgot your skates, you pay for that lesson.

j

[Skittl1321]

Our coach requires you to schedule and pay for lessons one week ahead of time. If you give 24 hours notice for good reason cancelation- he will hold the payment until the next lesson. (Good reason is illness- not "I'm going to a movie instead"). I actually pay at the beginning of the month for all my lessons, just cause it's easier.

If it's less than 24 hours cancellation- you're just out the money. It's a bummer sometimes, because you don't always know a day ahead of time you're going to be puking your guts out or unable to walk, but I knew what I signed up for, so I just sighed when I lost those fees.

[Mrs Redboots]

Our coaches technically have a 24-hour cancellation policy. I say "technically" because they don't always enforce it with skaters they know well. They wouldn't enforce it if you woke up with a streaming cold, or whatever, but would if you just kept forgetting your lessons or otherwise messing them about. They might give you the benefit of the doubt the first time, but not much longer.

[SynchroSk8r114]

Our coaches technically have a 24-hour cancellation policy. I say "technically" because they don't always enforce it with skaters they know well. They wouldn't enforce it if you woke up with a streaming cold, or whatever, but would if you just kept forgetting your lessons or otherwise messing them about. They might give you the benefit of the doubt the first time, but not much longer.

That's exactly the way I am. For those who don't cancel often, I've been very lenient. But with this particular student, I'm fed up and it's going to be enforced with her from here on out.

[phoenix]

You've addressed the cancellation problem.....what are you going to do about the behavior problem?

[SynchroSk8r114]

You've addressed the cancellation problem.....what are you going to do about the behavior problem?

Well, we actually made a little progress the other lesson. For starters, they showed up (ha!) and then I took the advice that some of you posted and stopped asking her to do things. Now it's 'go do your your crossovers' or 'You have to get you leg up on your spirals...' As usual, she did give me a bit of an attitude, but I think she was kind of surprised that I was actually putting my foot down with her. I flat out told her at the beginning of her lesson that I wasn't putting up with her whining and bickering today, which she tried keeping to a minimum, but I still get that annoyed look when I tell her to do something she doesn't want to do. I mean, the kid will just look at me like she's hoping that I change my mind or forget what I asked her to do. So, a little progress, but I'm still working on it...:roll:

[Query]

Most coaches I know charge customers for late cancellation. You are a running a business.

>There is not one post here suggesting she yell at
>the student.

I give up :giveup:. My example was over the top.

It's good she is responding well to what you are doing now. If you succeed, everyone there will give you kudos for dealing well with a student with issues, and you will have done her quite a favor too.

I wish you well on the harder people management issue - the parents.

How can anyone skate without a warm up, or remember lessons without practicing afterwards? Maybe it would help to tell the parents she will get early arthritus if she doesn't skate 0.5-1 hours before and after the lesson, using standard warm-up/cool-down protocal. Dull edges are sort of a safety issue too.

If the parents don't have enough time to ferry their kids to extra practice, maybe they can car pool with other parents - oops :cry: that cancellation thing would kill that.

[doubletoe]

Well, we actually made a little progress the other lesson. For starters, they showed up (ha!) and then I took the advice that some of you posted and stopped asking her to do things. Now it's 'go do your your crossovers' or 'You have to get you leg up on your spirals...' As usual, she did give me a bit of an attitude, but I think she was kind of surprised that I was actually putting my foot down with her. I flat out told her at the beginning of her lesson that I wasn't putting up with her whining and bickering today, which she tried keeping to a minimum, but I still get that annoyed look when I tell her to do something she doesn't want to do. I mean, the kid will just look at me like she's hoping that I change my mind or forget what I asked her to do. So, a little progress, but I'm still working on it...:roll:

Good for you!! And if she keeps rolling her eyes, you can ask her to give you a written plan of what she would like to practice this season and what goals she would like to achieve instead of doing what you're giving her to work on. If she doesn't have anything else she'd rather be working on, she needs to do what you tell her. And if the answer is "nothing" then that's even better; you can take her lesson fee and sit in the coffee shot while she goofs off either on or off the ice for your entire lesson time. Just make sure you let her parents know if that's what she decides. ;)