Starting crossovers question

[Sessy]

Okay so I can do the crossovers pretty well. I was already getting told I had decent crossovers for somebody who skated only a year, but having practiced them on roller skates a LOT these past 2 months, they've definitely improved. I'm getting a lot of push...

... At least, after the first few strokes I am. To start from standstill is a nightmare! I just end up on my toepicks and I can't get away any better than I could when I just started learning them. And yeah I know you can push off non-crossover first once or twice, but that's more like five, eight times with me before I can do the crossovers the way I CAN do them. It's almost like a vicious circle: I somehow need the speed to get the rip off the edges and with it, the push.

And of course that won't do, the first few strokes are the most important ones, you might not even get many more than those!

So my question is, how do you START your crossovers well, and fast?

[Rusty Blades]

I start with my inside foot as my gliding foot (whichever is to the inside of the circle). The other foot goes about 90 degrees to the gliding foot, one good solid PUSH, and then the outside foot comes over the gliding foot for the first cross-over. That can be done really QUICK and you should have all the speed you can handle by about the third cross-over.

[Sessy]

So you basically push not to the side like normally during the back crossovers, but like forwards? Pigeon-toeing the foot?

[Rusty Blades]

If you want an explosive start, most of your weight will go on the back (pushing) foot just like when you started learning forward edges at the blue line, and you "step down" on to the skating foot. Having the pushing blade 90 degrees to the desired direction of travel gives you the hardest push you can have, sort of like a curler when he rises on his back foot while swinging the stone back and then stepping down on to the sliding foot as he swings the rock forward.

We are talking forward aren't we?

[Sessy]

No, backward (as I mentioned in the post above after realizing I'd omitted it). My forward xo's are okay (well, at the maximum of what it currently can be at least, and they're getting a nice rip so it's all just making the motion larger now I think)
:o

I'm not hooking the ice enough at the start to get enough push (it seems I only get the blades into the ice with a rip and a push when I'm already at least at some speed), so to hook it more, I get on my toepicks - but you can't gain speed on your toepicks very well... It's like a vicious circle. Once I'm up to speed with a little pumping motion or some very slow crossovers, then we're okay. And once I'm up to speed I can easily do them at the same speed the girls in our class who are doing doubles are doing them, so it really is just the starting out fase. Where I'm obviously doing *something* wrong!!!

Side note, the shoulders and their position at the start aren't the problem I think, or I wouldn't be able to do my xo's with my arms totally hanging down (which I can pretty well).

[quarkiki2]

Practice your BO edges -- it's the same start. If I'm doing CW back crossovers, I have most of my weight on the R foot, slightly toed-in, lift my L foot slightly and push out hard on my R foot as I set the L foot down -- does that make sense? Then instead of step-cross, I think lunge-pull. If you're really stepping inside the circle on your inside leg, then pulling your thighs together, your power will increase rapidly from the start.

[Sessy]

Lunge-pull?


My back outside edges are good and solid, but indeed aren't getting much speed at the startup either. OK I guess that makes sense. Well that's easy to practice, I can do that on rollers. Great, thanks!

[flippet]

Are you still lifting up the crossing foot? (Were you ever?)

If you're still lifting, don't do that.

From a standstill, bend your knees and firmly draw the "C" with your outer foot. Sit strongly into your inner side. Now, as you're carving the C around, SHOVE your inner leg underneath your outer leg. You sort of want your heels to be pointing at each other \ / , but of course your outer leg is in 'front' of your inner leg.

Like

../
\


where you're carving the top (let's say it's your right, outer leg) around and to the left, and shoving the bottom (inner, left) leg to the right. (Ignore the dots....it wouldn't keep the proper spacing otherwise.)


These are less of 'cross-overs' and more of 'push-unders'. That's where the power really comes from. You don't really lift the outer leg at all--instead, you reach into the circle with your inner foot, and 'grab and pull and shove' the ice underneath you, past your outer leg. You will weight-shift to and from the outer leg, but you won't really need to lift it.

[Sessy]

Are you still lifting up the crossing foot? (Were you ever?)

I don't know... Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v35Glf3HV20
the second part is backwards (that's the most recent video, but obviously it's on rollers, but it's more like the way I do them now than older video's from april on ice). I'm definately pushing away with the outside edge though. I was taking falls for 2 months trying to learn that last autumn!


From a standstill, bend your knees and firmly draw the "C" with your outer foot.

For CCW crossovers, right foot right?



These are less of 'cross-overs' and more of 'push-unders'. That's where the power really comes from. You don't really lift the outer leg at all--instead, you reach into the circle with your inner foot, and 'grab and pull and shove' the ice underneath you, past your outer leg. You will weight-shift to and from the outer leg, but you won't really need to lift it.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm doing once I'm up to speed... But at the beginning it doesn't seem to grip.

Maybe I'm just psyching myself out and expecting too much at this point? Maybe it's just something that needs more practice? Just the take-off so to speak, maybe I should just practice that all the time? Cuz you take off once and then you do crossovers for 5 minutes so obviously the take off gets less practice than the already-going motion?

[froggy]

make sure u get a strong push from the outer leg (the "c" push like s/o else posted), your next push from the inside edge- let it go completely under the foot, pushing firmly against the ice. overall Bend more with your knees, think of a ceiling on top of your head, but just make sure you don't break at the waist it looks ugly and it will make you hit the toe. make each step complete you have pretty good rythm on the video, just emphasis more each step in the crossover, you won't loose speed. good luck, it's good you are concerned on stroking, stroking and edges make a beautiful skater and will help immensely with spins and jumps.

[flippet]

Quote:
From a standstill, bend your knees and firmly draw the "C" with your outer foot.
For CCW crossovers, right foot right?

No....if you're going backward, and you're traveling in a counterclockwise direction, your outer foot would be your left foot.

Further on in my post, I was describing backwards, clockwise crossovers, so the right foot is the outer foot there.

[flippet]

I don't know... Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v35Glf3HV20
the second part is backwards (that's the most recent video, but obviously it's on rollers, but it's more like the way I do them now than older video's from april on ice).

Yeah, that looks pretty good.

I guess the key for getting power from a standstill is to really PULL those legs together. Use those thigh muscles! :)

[Sessy]

Oh wait, it's like half past midnight here I'm totally messed up about clockwise and counterclockwise. I meant clockwise actually... LOL time for sleepy-sleepy for me I think!!

I'm just concerned with it cuz it's what's making me look like a "crappy adult skater" (no offense to anybody) and because I like pretty heavy music I will need the speed and power to make it look good. Also I like skating for the muscle effort it takes, like jumping and going fast and stuff, LOL! I like the sport in skating, not so much the art. Besides this is something I can practice off-ice, for free! (that basketball field is open for everyone).

[flo]

Don't try to make the first one too large - just get yourself going and work off that movement into the next.