Coaches? Daughter too young for a class? [Archive]

littlekateskate

06-27-2007, 09:03 AM

Clarice

06-27-2007, 09:25 AM

It very much depends on the child. Our rink uses the Basic Skills program, not ISI, so the levels are named differently, but I've run into this situation. I had a little 3-year-old boy in the Snowplow class - very cute, very coordinated for his age. There are 3 levels of Snowplow, and he had passed all of them. Strictly judging by level, he would then skip Basic 1 (which teaches the same skills to older kids) and go straight to Basic 2. However, he was unable to attend in a class situation. He could do skills, but he just wanted to skate around and didn't want to follow directions and do what the class was doing. He didn't have the attention span the older class required. He also couldn't talk very well yet. Skillwise, he was Basic 2, but developmentally he still very much belonged in Snowplow. I told the parents they could either leave him in Snowplow classes for awhile and let him enjoy skating - he was only 3, there was no rush - or they could try a few private lessons if they wanted him to keep advancing at this point. One on one sometimes works better, because they get the instructor all to themselves and there are fewer distractions. These parents chose to stick with the Snowplow classes for the time being, and for this child, I think they made the right call.

phoenix

06-27-2007, 09:26 AM

If someone told me over the phone that their 3 yo daughter wanted to sign up for beta--yes, I'd tell them she's too young/little too.

My suggestion would be to talk to the skating school director, & arrange a time to go down & have him/her observe your daughter, so they can see & judge whether it would be all right. Most 3 yo's don't have the capacity to focus to the extent a beta skater would need to. If your daughter can, then she should be allowed into the class---but it would be highly unusual, so you're probably going to have to prove it in person.

Isk8NYC

06-27-2007, 09:36 AM

If you just called out of the blue and got one of the cashiers answering the phone, you may have just gotten a stock answer.

Another possibility (given it's the summer) is that she's the only 3-yr old Beta skater interested in groups. They won't run a group for less than 5 students; it's not profitable. Perhaps they wanted to combine the Alpha and Beta groups, which isn't too bad. (I wouldn't mix pre-alpha with beta - too much of a skills spread.)

Call the skating school and speak to the Director. Explain the situation (I want her to be challenged - she's already passed this level) and ask for a skating evaluation, to ascertain the proper class level for your daughter. Bring a copy of her Alpha test sheet or badge with you as documentation.

Find out exactly why and try to solve the problem. Are there other kids her age/level that might be interested?

SynchroSk8r114

06-27-2007, 09:51 AM

Definitely call the skating director and have them evaluate your daughter! That should help convince the rink that she is capable and mature enough to be in Beta classes. I've taught kids as young as 4 and 5 in Beta at my rink, and so long as they're mature enough and have the attention span and desire to skate, it seems to work out just fine. :D

If worst comes to worst and the rink doesn't allow your daughter to participate in Beta (which doesn't seem beneficial to their program - $$$- but whatever...), perhaps you can look into semi-private lessons. Cost-wise, it should be cheaper than private lessons, which might not be necessary for a three-year-old anyway. Personally, for a half an hour semi-private lesson, I take the cost of my regular private lesson (half hour) and divide the rate by the two students. I've done this in the past and it works well. Bonus: you aren't paying $90.00 for private coaching for a three-year-old. ;)

What kills me is that you have almost a double standard here. For example, if the rink had a skater who was 8 yrs. old and landing all her doubles, there would be no question about the age, strictly. That kid would be considered "talented". What makes it so different for a three-year-old in Beta? Is that not an indication of a talented, if not hardworking, child? Just a thought...:halo:

Whatever you decide, good luck! :D

blue111moon

06-27-2007, 10:40 AM

As a coach of tots, I'd advise you to put her in the alpha class for the first week and see how she does. Different schools have different standards. If, at the end of the first lesson, she is obviously beyond the skills that the class is doing, then you can ask the Director to evaluate her and possibly move her up - if she's ready.

I'm not saying this is you specifically, but over the years, I can't tell you how many parents have insisted that their child belongs in a higher level class because they've skated before in another group programs - only to have the director move them DOWN into my class because the skill level just wasn't up to our standard. And it's a lot easier to tell a child "you're too good for my group" and move them up than it is to explain why they're moving down.

Tennisany1

06-27-2007, 01:15 PM

I had this same problem when my dd was 4. She had completed all the preschool levels and the only place to put her was the school age classes. Her skill level put her in with the 8 to 10 year olds. She has always had great focus etc., the problem was developemental. A 3 or 4 year old doesn't have the same social skills, vocabulary, leg strength, balance, peripheral vision, or muscle control. That is why a child who starts skating at 6 or 7 will often catch up and even pass one that starts at 3 or 4. The other problem is that the social interaction that happens in a class of 8 to 10 year olds may not be appropriate for a 3 or 4 year old.

It is a real pain for both you and your daughter; I totally understand! What we ended up doing was to have my daughter do the last 15 minutes of the preschool class (the classes were 45 minutes long and the last 15 minutes was mostly games) and then have a 1/2 private with the preschool instructor. The cost was less because the instructor wasn't a high priced coach, the coach understood how to teach a young child (not all do!), and my dd got the social part of the group lesson. We were very lucky to have an understanding skating director.

I agree you should talk to the director. It may be that the other kids registered are just so much older than your daughter that it wouldn't work, but perhaps you can work out some sort of comprimise.

Isk8NYC

06-27-2007, 01:23 PM

As a coach of tots, I'd advise you to put her in the alpha class for the first week and see how she does.
I'm usually the first-two-weeks on ice coordinator at one school that moves the kids in and out of groups based on their skating ability. Instructors have to test each session and the Director uses those sheets to put the kids into the proper classes. Sometimes we have to move skaters into different classes, usually new or just-returning skaters. Occasionally, we can take the highest level kids from one group and the lowest level kids from another group and tada! they're one group at the same level! It's a lot of work and takes diplomacy because no one ever wants to move down.

The other program I teach in isn't as on the ball. I've had my test sheets misplaced, group levels mixed together, and when I asked to move a kid up, the director didn't have a group she could fit into on that day. The skater was held back almost 2 levels; she was a good sport, I used her as a demonstrator and kept upping the difficulty for her exercises, but my weekend Freeskate class would have been better for her. Not my call at that rink.

I coach Tots too, which is why I recommended an evaluation BEFORE the first lesson. It's unusual for a 3-yr old to be at Beta already. I realize it's not the case here, but parents sometimes get confused about levels, especially in Basic Skills. (True answer from a parent: "I don't know: Basic 4 or 6 - it was an even number!" Kid belonged in Basic 3.) Some rinks are loosey-goosey about passing kids whereas others run a tight ship. I have no way of knowing what the situation is here, so discussing it further with the Director beforehand makes more sense than putting her into a class cold. After that first lesson, the teacher may not be able to remember who the kid is at all. Plus, the Director and Coach will be a bit frazzled from the first-day crisis management that always takes place, so your request won't be received as nicely. 'nuff said.

If the school really uses the age-defines-level scenario and aren't on the ball in rearranging classes on the ice, the child could get stuck in a level that holds her back and wastes the lesson money. No good comes from holding back kids who are ready to move up and there's no cost savings in a wasted session of lessons.

blue111moon

06-27-2007, 02:09 PM

A ot depends on the director and the size of the school as well.

The programs I teach for are fairly small and the directors are on the ice every week, observing classes and looking for skaters who don't "fit" the group they're in - either they're too far ahead or behind. And while the first day of any session is always a little chaotic, the groups are small enough that skaters don't get lost in the shuffling; on the contrary, there's no stigma attached to being to a different group because there's a lot of it going on.

And then there's the age gap issue - there's a definite art to teach pre-schoolers as opposed to older kids. I happen to be pretty good with the little ones (ages 3 to 6) and not so great with the older kids (ages 8 and up). But not all coaches are comfortable with little ones and if there's a couple years between the 3 year old and the rest of the beta kids, it could be difficult for everyone.

As for a pre-evaluation, well, at my rink that's not going to happen, mainly because there isn't ice time available for such things. Group lesson time is limited so the best a parent could hope for is to ask the director to watch the child at the start of a class, which is what they do anyway.

But like I said, it all depends on the rink and the program and the director and the instructors and the other kids in the class. I wouldn't rule out the program without trying it first.

dbny

06-27-2007, 08:52 PM

What kills me is that you have almost a double standard here. For example, if the rink had a skater who was 8 yrs. old and landing all her doubles, there would be no question about the age, strictly. That kid would be considered "talented". What makes it so different for a three-year-old in Beta? Is that not an indication of a talented, if not hardworking, child? Just a thought...:halo:

The 8 year old landing doubles will already be taking private lessons, so groups are not an issue. I've seen quite a few "talented" 3 year olds, in fact I'm working with several right now, in group lessons. The big issue here is not talent, it's maturity. I had to take a very talented 3 yr old off the ice yesterday because he was behaving in a dangerous manner on the ice. Ten minutes later, when he was finished with his tantrum, I let him come back.

Schmeck

06-28-2007, 06:11 AM

dbny, you want to borrow Icy for the summer? She specializes in the 'young male won't listen, does something dumb' category for our local LTS. Seems she always gets asked to take the little boys who would rather slide into each other on the ice 8O than pay attention to the instructor... She's a great LTS helper!

About the original question - my old club used to have age restrictions for a lot of LTS. I couldn't figure out why, until I was assigned to be at the boards during LTS. There's a lot of maintenance with the little ones, and their lessons just need to be done differently than the older groups.

dbny

06-28-2007, 09:45 AM

dbny, you want to borrow Icy for the summer? She specializes in the 'young male won't listen, does something dumb' category for our local LTS. Seems she always gets asked to take the little boys who would rather slide into each other on the ice 8O than pay attention to the instructor... She's a great LTS helper!

Thanks for the offer, wish I could! There is an interesting dynamic in this kid's group of 3. Two boys, both very, very good. The behavior problem is a little better on the ice than the "nice" boy, but the "nice" boy can throw and catch a ball like you wouldn't believe (plush ball that doesn't roll much). The third student is a little girl. THAT one favors the "bad" boy! When given a chance, she always throws the ball to him.

doofsy

06-28-2007, 10:17 AM

I agree with what most everyone else already said..... take her the first day and let the director evaluate her. If he/she feels she's strong enough to hold her own in Beta, she will... if not, it probably wouldn't hurt her to do another session in Alpha to get her up to par. I know of more than a few LTS badges that were passed, that I never in my life would have passed.... everyone has different standards..... that's one's of the only crappy things about skating... its' so subjective.

OK, now I'm gonna have a little rant. I struggle with people using the word 'talented' with any child in the lower LTS levels. I really don't think you can judge 'talent' by some forward skating and some swizzles/snowmen..... coordination, yes, talent, not so much. I think a child needs to at least be at a level that we can see if he/she can spin, jump, etc, to make that call. Just because a 3-4 year old can glide on one foot and do a pivot, doesn't necessarily even mean they'll ever even land an axel. The only reason this bugs me is that I think alot of coaches will tell the parents of 3-4 year olds "your child is really talented" and the parent starts to get notions of Olympics guaranteed for the future. You really can't tell at 3 or 4 what they're going to be able to do even by 6 or 7. I've seen many a "talented" 3 year old fly through LTS, and then take 4 years to land an axel. I'm just saying, wait until they at least get to the backspin or waltz jump before you start throwing around words like "talented" K, thanks for reading my rant...lol...

doofsy

06-28-2007, 10:18 AM

oops, double post

FSWer

06-28-2007, 10:57 AM

AHHH

Okay i know there are alot of coaches out there so please give me all your honest opinions.

I called a new rink today to switch my daughter to it for group lessons only. She has passed her alpha and would be going into the beta class. They were asking me all her info and when they found out she was three THEY WOULDNT PUT HER IN BETA! Okay I know she is young, but she is very mature for her age and does wonderful in group classes. Infact she seems more mature and concetrates on her skating then some of hte older kids who are goofing around.

And its not like she didnt actually pass her alpha test. They take it very seriously and make sure they do everything correctly or they dont pass the kids. I have seen many kids be in a level for three sessions.

What are your opinions. Is it really wrong is she too young to be in beta even though its her skating level. Is there some other possible reason you could think of they wouldnt let her? Luckily we have multiple rinks in a 10 min drive to choose from. But i wanted to do group lessons at this one because its 80.00 cheaper every ten weeks. We could definetly put the money in something else :)

Ok....do you know if they rejected her JUST BECAUSE of her age? Or say there were regalations about kids advancing to that level AT her age? Or did they specificly say they just didn't HAVE a PROGRAM for her? If it's number 1...that Rink should NOT be age destrimanating (sorry,I know that's spelled wrong), unless they have specific regalations. For good reasons of course. Also, as a professional Skating busness, if they are. They should be able to understand and know the phase....."it's not size....it's know how". Not to mention a kid being gifted. If it's number 2 they should have rec. a Rink that COULD take her. BTW. why don't you tell us what moves she has. Maybe that might help more.

CanAmSk8ter

06-30-2007, 04:17 PM

As an instructor, these would be my concerns if my director told me I would be having a three-year-old I don't know in my Beta class (assuming I have three or more other students, all of whom are six or older):

-What is this kid's attention span like? (Just because a skater isn't disrupting the class and distracting other kids doesn't mean he/she is necessarily paying attention and learning, although to an observer it could look like he/she is). Will I have to move from one element to another because she's getting bored, even if the other kids are still working productively on the first element? (This would be my #1 concern, because it wouldn't be fair to the other kids).

-On a related note, I have to "teach to the majority", meaning I can't teach the class like a Tot class with games and toys if the other kids are 6-10 y.o. Will she be learning anything, or will most of it go over her head?

-Who has been teaching her privately? How high a standard has that coach held her to? Will she have learned the Pre-Alpha and Alpha elements the same way my other students have? With slightly older kids, this wouldn't be a big concern, but a young skater isn't likely to have the vocabularly to explain how she was taught to do something, and the instructor probably hasn't explained to her the reason to do things a certain way, so I have no way of knowing whether it's going to be beneficial or not to have her use the technique I generally teach or just have her do things the way she has been, even if it's different from what I'm teaching the rest of the class.

-Physically, will there be enough space for our class to spread out so that I don't have to worry about her being knocked over/fallen on by a much larger classmate?

My rink generally requires skaters under 4 to do a "trial lesson" before signing up. Not every three-year-old is ready for a group class (nor is every four- or five-year-old; we allow them to do trial classes too if the parents ask). This might be something to request, if you think the concern is more her maturity level and attention span. Get in touch with the skating director; usually that person has to authorize something like a trial lesson.

Also, if her private coach doesn't teach at this rink, don't assume that she would necessarily have passed Alpha at this rink. Different coaches and skating directors look for different things; it doesn't mean her coach doesn't hold kids to a high standard, just that there might be different aspects of certain elements and skating in general that they look for when passing kids. If they agree to put her in an Alpha class, go for it- there's no such thing as working too much on stroking and crossovers.

dbny

06-30-2007, 06:42 PM

-What is this kid's attention span like? (Just because a skater isn't disrupting the class and distracting other kids doesn't mean he/she is necessarily paying attention and learning, although to an observer it could look like he/she is). Will I have to move from one element to another because she's getting bored, even if the other kids are still working productively on the first element? (This would be my #1 concern, because it wouldn't be fair to the other kids).

I agree that these are significant concerns. I've had kids with such a small attention span that they really made no testworthy progress at all during a six week course. Just being on the ice and moving is great, but when you have to teach specific elements, and one kid is doing nothing but what he/she likes, it makes things very difficult. I have to work not to feel that I'm failing at my job in those cases, but I've seen enough of it to know that some kids (regardless of age, BTW) simply do not have the attention span, are not interested, or do not want to do anything that challenges them.

A trial lesson is always a good idea, IMO, but some schools, for a variety of reasons, will not do this.

ghostwritergirl

07-07-2007, 10:04 AM

My daughter just turned 4 and is in Beta, so I understand how frustrated you must be. One would think that if the coaches are doing their jobs properly, passing Alpha would be equal at ALL rinks...regardless of age.:frus:

I would definately speak directly with the skating director at the rink and have her/him evaluate your daughter. Maybe you could withhold her age until she is seen. I know that sounds sneaky, but at least you might get a more honest opinion.

I also don't think group lessons are all they are cracked up to be. My DD learns far more in her private lessons, but she enjoys the other girls in her class, so we do it. My DD generally skates 3-4 times a week. She would skate every day if I let her! She does her class, her private lesson, and some public skate times. She also takes a ballet at our rink with other preschool figure skaters.

If the new rink won't bend simply because of your DD's age, it might not be the environment you want for your DD anyway. There is nothing wrong with just doing private lessons...we know LOTS of girls that don't do group lessons at all. While saving money would be nice, it's not worth it if she can't perform to her full potential.

Good Luck!

CanAmSk8ter

07-07-2007, 11:55 AM

My daughter just turned 4 and is in Beta, so I understand how frustrated you must be. One would think that if the coaches are doing their jobs properly, passing Alpha would be equal at ALL rinks...regardless of age.:frus:

The discrepancy doesn't mean that coaches aren't doing their jobs properly, though. Sometimes it is a lack of knowledge on the part of the coach, or the coach just wants to pass everybody so the parents are happy, but more often than not it's just that different coaches are looking for different things. If you look at USFS testing, the judges have different ideas of what things should look like from level to level. I personally know girls who have passed their Juvenile FS with what I consider really poor technique on the axel, to the point that I think it's debatable whether the axel is even fully rotated. I was shocked that they passed. I've also seen skaters fail tests and been unable to imagine what the judges disliked enough to fail them. Like judges, different coaches want to see different things at different levels. Figure skating is a subjective sport, and if your child continues in it you'll see this kind of thing at every level.

This is one reason I prefer the USFS program... the instructors' manual clearly lays out the standard for each element at every level (it has to be held this long, done this many times, etc.) I taught in ISI programs from 1999-2004, and their coaches' handbook isn't nearly as specific and detailed.

twokidsskatemom

07-07-2007, 03:00 PM

My daughter just turned 4 and is in Beta, so I understand how frustrated you must be. One would think that if the coaches are doing their jobs properly, passing Alpha would be equal at ALL rinks...regardless of age.:frus:

I would definately speak directly with the skating director at the rink and have her/him evaluate your daughter. Maybe you could withhold her age until she is seen. I know that sounds sneaky, but at least you might get a more honest opinion.

I also don't think group lessons are all they are cracked up to be. My DD learns far more in her private lessons, but she enjoys the other girls in her class, so we do it. My DD generally skates 3-4 times a week. She would skate every day if I let her! She does her class, her private lesson, and some public skate times. She also takes a ballet at our rink with other preschool figure skaters

If the new rink won't bend simply because of your DD's age, it might not be the environment you want for your DD anyway. There is nothing wrong with just doing private lessons...we know LOTS of girls that don't do group lessons at all. While saving money would be nice, it's not worth it if she can't perform to her full potential.

Good Luck!
Im not sure why you would think coaches arent doing their jobs if its not standard for passing. Coaches like judges are people. Passing for one isnt passing for another. Some parents push to have a skater move up. Some coaches hold them back to make sure they just cant DO an element, they DO it WELL.
This a subjective sport. If you want you child to do this and be happy,I wouldnt worry so much about what class they are in when they are 4.

ghostwritergirl

07-07-2007, 03:31 PM

twokidsskatemom

07-07-2007, 04:42 PM

Well, I seem to have stirred up quite a hornet's nest and that was not my intention. I am merely stating that as a parent, you expect an ISI program (or any other national program for that matter) to be equal and level at each rink.

I could care less what level my daughter skates at. I would have preferred for her to stay in Alpha because of her age and size, but she had the alpha skills and needed a new challenge. Unfortunately, I have known for many years how the system works and it still frustates me that there is not more consistancy from rink to rink. My son plays travel hockey and we have the same type of issues there. I think a large part of what makes it so inconsistant is a handful of pushy parents and pushable coaches.
Im not sure why you think you are stirring up a hornets nest. We are just explaining that what you are asking, for standards to be the same, is not possible. Its not in ISI. Its not the same in USFSA either.I have seen skaters pass and wonder what the judges were thinking of!! I have also seen skaters not pass that should have passed.
This isnt like hockey.This is subjective.There isnt just a handful of pushy parents. There are tons of pushy parents.
If a young skaters gets pushed though fast,there will come a time when they cant do what is called for at a level. Its a developmental issue.