On-Ice Time

[dmmains]

I'm sure the subject of on-ice time comes up here often and I'd like to get some of your thoughts.

My son's coach told me at the beginning of summer that she wanted him to skate 2 hours a day, five days a week over the summer. (He's FS 5, Pre-Pre)So, I worked out a schedule to do that including his lesson time as well as his own practice time.

So we're into our first week of summer and today she told me that these 2 hours per day need to be in addition to his lessons and that he hasn't been skating enough this week. All fine and good except for the fact that he's spending about 5 hours a week in lessons or classes so that increases his ice time by 50%.

So...my question...from your perspective, what do you consider on-ice time?

Thanks for your insights.

[Tennisany1]

How old is your son?

[dmmains]

My son is 12.

[jskater49]

I think this is something for you to decide, not coach. Sorry if coaches get mad at me. Understanding that of course, the more ice time he puts in (assuming he's using it all to work and isn't goofing around), the better he will be. (Maybe) But it's your pocketbook, it's your son's life and that's a decision YOU need to make. I believe a coach should tell you how much practice is needed to reach certain goals....but you have to balance that with what you can afford and whether or not you want your son to have any kind of a life outside of the rink. Depending on his age, your son needs to have some input on how much time he wants to spend on the ice (but your wallet still has the final say-so!)


j

[Clarice]

My coach's formula is an hour of practice time on your own for each lesson. If your son is taking 5 lessons a week, the 10 hours you already have scheduled would be fine according to her. What jumps is he working on?

[Tennisany1]

I count all the time (privates, groups, and practice) on the ice as on ice time. When my dd's coach talks about number of sessions she is always including lesson time in that. How else would you know what to register him for? DD's coach and I always work out the number of lessons, which sessions she is available for, and then work out the schedule.

Does your son want to skate more? Can you afford to have him skate more? I would think at 12 years old he should be able to handle 3 hours per day; however, if he doesn't want to or you can't afford it or if he has other committments, then I would just tell the coach this is what is available. You are the parent. IMHO often more ice time doesn't equal more practice. It equals about the same amount of quality practice with a bunch more chatting and goofing around. The other part to consider is how much off ice is he doing? Is it currently 2 hours of skating plus an hour of strength and stretch, yoga, or ballet?

Kids do need some free, unstructured time during the summer. I would look at the total time committed to skating: commute to the rink, plus on ice, plus off ice, plus lunch etc. times 5 days per week. This will help you decide if the extra hour a day is going to tip the balance.

I'm not sure if that is what you are looking for. Hope it helps.

[TreSk8sAZ]

It sounds like the coach didn't explain what she wanted very well in the beginning. In my definition, On-Ice time includes any coaching I may receive. You're still working on skills and skating while you're in the lesson, on the ice. It's not an off-ice jump class or conditioning or anything like that. So, I would say your initial reaction (including lesson time in those two hours) was correct.

That being said, if he's spending 5 hours a week in lessons or classes, the coach may want him to practice more on his own and that's her definition of "on ice time." That's quite a lot of skating, though, and quite a lot of money for you. I agree with jskater -- a coach can recommend how much ice time, but can't really require you to take it all, at least not at that level. I'd say do what you and your DS think is best. Especially if he's worn out or tired of skating by the end of the time he's putting in now.

[dmmains]

He's actually taking a total of 7 lessons/classes that equate to 5 hours in total.

2 - 1/2 hour Power group classes
2 - 1 hour private lessons working on MIF and FS
1 - 1 hour private lesson working on edges and FS
1 - 1/2 hour private MIF lesson
1 - 50 min. FS group class

He's primarily working on the lutz and single combinations. He's just starting work on the axel.

I've purchased unlimited ice time for the summer so the only limitation is the amount of contract ice and his desire to put in the time.

[Tennisany1]

Not sure if this will help or not, but he is at the same level as my daughter and her schedule is:

4 days per week for 6 weeks:

1/2 hour group FS lesson
1 hour free skate (private lesson at some point during this session)
1 hour ice dance (private lesson at some point during this session)

1 hour of off ice (twice per week)

She also does ballet (about 10 hours over the 6 weeks)

Now she is only 7 years old and I need to be at the rink the entire time so her time is limited by my schedule. I would say that if your son is using the time really well and really wants to stay for another session, then go ahead. But I don't think you will do him any irrepairable damage if you stick to the 2 hours. :) I also wouldn't worry too much about the lesson to practice ratio. It is a guide, but every kid is different and you need to do what works for your son.

[dmmains]

His week also includes:

3 - 1/2 hour off-ice classes (mainly cardio)
3 - 45 min. ballet classes
2 - 1 hour strength & conditioning sessions with his Dad at the local YMCA

His coach says that all this is necessary for him to catch up because he's older than other kids at his level. She wants him to compete USFS this next year (and he does too) and without all this training she won't let him cross that bridge.

[Clarice]

There's another formula for calculating ice time that is based on the jumps the skater is working on. You do a half hour of practice per week for every half rotation. If your son is working on his axel, then by that formula he does: 2 half rotations each for his toe, salchow, loop, flip, and lutz, and 3 half rotations for his axel. That's a total of 13 half rotations, or 6 to 7 hours a week. That strikes me as about right for your average Pre-Pre skater, to keep them progressing. Your son isn't exactly average, though, since he's older and trying to catch up, so more time is probably appropriate for him. How much more is up to you guys - a combination of what he wants, what you can afford, and how fast he wants to progress. There is such a thing as over-training, though - there comes a point where the risk of injury outweighs the progress likely to be made. Be careful.

[twokidsskatemom]

Imo
I think that is too many lessons.My daughter is competive at ISI 5 pre prel level. My son is non test but has lutz loop , camel sit ect.They both only have 2 lessons a week plus off ice three times a week.
You need to remember you are the parent, not the coach.If you can afford the lessons, the ice time and he WANTS that much, I guess its ok.But just because a coach says so doesnt make it right for YOUR son.
My daughter age 8 spends around 10 hours total on ice. My son age 6 spends maybe 6 or so.They need to learn how to practice themselves.
HTH

[twokidsskatemom]

His week also includes:

3 - 1/2 hour off-ice classes (mainly cardio)
3 - 45 min. ballet classes
2 - 1 hour strength & conditioning sessions with his Dad at the local YMCA

His coach says that all this is necessary for him to catch up because he's older than other kids at his level. She wants him to compete USFS this next year (and he does too) and without all this training she won't let him cross that bridge.

I just read this after I posted.
I do think UNLESS he really really wants all that, I would drop something NOW.He doesnt need all that at such a LOW level.He is really at the same level as my 6 year old son.
My friend has a now 16 year old that started at age 12. He is good, went to Jr nats last year.
He does ballet and pilates. He doesnt need to spend his years catching up.Your 12 year old will burn out soon if he doesnt have a minute to himself.
I would really take a step back .

[jskater49]

Frankly I don't understand this business of not letting kids compete unless they can win. My daughter started skating when she was 11. She competed in basic 5 in January and that November she had passed her pre-pre moves and FS and competed in pre-pre with no axel and a crappy sit spin she had learned two weeks before. She came in last and had a wonderful time. She skated maybe 3 days a week. She has NEVER skated as many hours a week or had as many lessons as your coach is telling you your son needs. She is 16 now, has all her doubles other than her axel (and the toe loop is iffy), has passed her silver solo dance and will probably at least pass Novice this year. And yes she comes close to last when she competes freestyle but she does medal in dance.

But guess what else she does? She sings in the choir in school and plays flute in the band and does plays and musicals, is active with her church youth group, has a 3.8 GPA and goes to the prom and has friends and loves skating.

A little perspective here.

j

[twokidsskatemom]

Frankly I don't understand this business of not letting kids compete unless they can win. My daughter started skating when she was 11. She competed in basic 5 in January and that November

I thought some more about this. The coach will not let him compete unless he does all this is one I would think twice about.
Boys, until they are at least juv, have NO competion anyway !!!At pre pre, he MIGHT have one or two others . Unlike the girls, that have 8 per group and 4 or 5 groups.
He needs the experience first. I wouldnt have him overdo either!!

[dmmains]

Boys, until they are at least juv, have NO competion anyway !!!At pre pre, he MIGHT have one or two others . Unlike the girls, that have 8 per group and 4 or 5 groups.
He needs the experience first. I wouldnt have him overdo either!!

Exactly, he really wants some competition. In ISI he literally has none. He's really tired of competing against the book. At least in USFS there would be some competition at his level. We went to recent competition to check it out and at the pre-pre level there were actually about 6 boys (split between axel & non-axel). After watching, we both (me and my son) felt he could hold his own and not embarass himself but his coach still says he's not ready. It's sooo frustrating.

[dmmains]

I do want to say thank you to everyone for all the input. You've all helped tremendously and given me a lot to think about.

[BatikatII]

Just want to say I am amazed at the amount of ice time being suggested.

Definitly needs some down time I'd say - there is such a thing as overdoing it and it's the quickest way to burn out there is.

I guess my son is not the best ad for skating practice. He started at 10 on a single shared lesson once a week. Eventually he and his sister shared two 30 minute lessons a week and that went up to 3 (shared) a week when they started doing pairs as well. They went to the novice championships in pairs (UK). Son would skate his lesson and then usually leave the ice or just mess about for no more than an additional half hour. Maximum hours he ever spent on ice in a week was probably 3 and usually less. He did no group classes and for a while a 1 hour a week off-ice class.

Give your son and your wallet a break unless he really wants to do all that and you can afford it. And if coach won't let him compete unless he puts in all that on-ice time then I'd be looking for another coach.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Exactly, he really wants some competition. In ISI he literally has none. He's really tired of competing against the book. At least in USFS there would be some competition at his level. We went to recent competition to check it out and at the pre-pre level there were actually about 6 boys (split between axel & non-axel). After watching, we both (me and my son) felt he could hold his own and not embarass himself but his coach still says he's not ready. It's sooo frustrating.

If both you and he want him to at least try a competition, then why not tell coach "Well, we know that he may not be ready yet, but he would like to try anyway and I fully support it." As long as you are willing to pay the entry fee, travel time, etc., I can't understand how a coach can keep your son from competing (okay, if they don't make a program or something they can, but as parent you should really have final decision.)

[Tennisany1]

...After watching, we both (me and my son) felt he could hold his own and not embarass himself but his coach still says he's not ready. It's sooo frustrating.

This is a major philosophical point that should be discussed with your coach. Some coaches believe in the start competing and work your way up through the level, and other like to wait until they think their skater can win and then let them compete. Which one is better is a whole other thread in itself; however, the philosophy of your coach and your philosophy should match or you should at least discuss it. I can't imagine how hard it must be to be working the hours your son is working and not have a specific competition as a goal. He's only 12 for heaven sakes!

[littlekateskate]

I would definetly be looking for another coach. I would just find one that suits your needs (that being letting him preform). My daughter is only 3 and has competed in 4 competitions. I think they are good for them and are quite fun. Gives them a reason to skate and show off what they have learned.

And even if he is worried or you are of him being embarassed what better way to fight it :)

[Rob Dean]

Most of the other parents have offered some good points. My son is 14 (tomorrow actually, but close enough :) ), and just skated pre-pre at his first competition yesterday. They combined the axel and no-axel groups and we missed the word somewhere along the way, as there were only 3 boys, and he and his coach tried to plug in his (almost brand new) axel at the last minute. This didn't work well (he was third of three), but he's been wanting to do this competition for a while, so it was good for him to try it.

Anyway, as far as time goes, he's currently skating about 6 hrs a week (on four days; he was calculating while I read the thread), has 60 minutes of freestyle lesson time (usually a long lesson and a short one on different days), and usually a short ice dance lesson each week. We've been stable at about that level for about a year, having ramped up from group lessons through '04 and sharing a 30 minute lesson once a week with me in early '05. His coach has always been realistic about what we could expect, and the importance of sticking to the budget. As I siad, the axel is new, and they've been working on a double salchow, interrupted by a need to prep for this competition and the desire to schedule his next moves test soon. (Juvenile.)

It's at least a good idea to talk to the coach about this...

Rob

[psnave]

Lots of good replies already...but here's my 2 cents. I'd really be worrying about your son burning out from all the rink time. Kids really do need balance. I think they need quality practice time, not necessarily quantity. Your coach is expecting a lot for Pre Pre.

Maybe the coach is trying to make the best use of your unlimited ice time this summer, not sure. I would definately talk to her more about this, perhaps your differences in philosophy mean she is not the best choice as a coach. Does she only want to coach highly competitive kids?

Does your son seem tired of all the skating time, or does he leave the rink feeling energized and can't wait until the next session? If he's always tired, I'd say your risk of burn out is high.

Good luck with your decision.

Patricia :)