Axel element, what's that?

[Sessy]

Me and some other members (including their coaches) at a Dutch skating board are a little puzzled by what is meant by the term "axel element". It's apparently not a real axel. So what is it? I thought you guys might know.

[2salch0w]

Me and some other members (including their coaches) at a Dutch skating board are a little puzzled by what is meant by the term "axel element". It's apparently not a real axel. So what is it? I thought you guys might know.

Could it refer to the requirement at the men's senior level to do, in the short program, either a double or triple axel? So that "box" could be called the "axel element", not knowing which each skater would choose.

And maybe that comes up at other levels, too, where you could do a single or double axel to fulfill the axel requirement.

Just guessing.

Tim

[SynchroSk8r114]

That's pretty vague, but here's my guesses:
- delayed axel
- open axel
- tuck/sit axel
- half axel (bell jump or once around)
- one-foot axel
- inside axel

And it could always mean just a single, double, or triple axel, as suggested in a previous post...who knows! Good luck with this one! :roll:

[Sessy]

No, it's a requirement for the kur for the lowest (tested) category in which you can skate, and it's below the category in which they start demanding a single axel...
Our rulebook is crystal clear again, as usual... (It took the coaches a year to figure out what they wanted from the skaters in the new tests, now the same starts over with the new requirements in the competitions, they COULD add some clarifications but nahhh why would they? Brrr.)

What's a tuck axel and inside axel?

The 1 rotation axel sounds like it could be what they ask... I dunno we're all thinking at this other forum, can they be asking a waltz jump or a waltz/loop combo? But then why wouldn't they just name it that way?

[doubletoe]

That sounds like it might be a mistake, since an axel element is usually only required at higher levels (once the skaters have already had to do an axel on a test). It normally means either a single, double or triple axel.

[skatersmama]

They could be looking for a jump with a forward take-off (waltz jump). It is listed in the lower catagories her as an "axel-type take-off.

[daisies]

What's a tuck axel and inside axel?

A tuck axel is when you do an axel but tuck your landing leg under you mid-jump (sort of like being in a flying sit position or stag loop position).

An inside axel is a 1 1/2-revolution jump that, when performed by a skater who jumps counterclockwise, takes off the right forward inside edge rather than the left forward outside edge and still lands on the right back outside edge.

[Sessy]

Oh the right forward inside edge takeoff sounds crazy difficult... Cuz if you swing that left leg, you end up rotating against the rotation you need to go in?

Doubletoe, a mistake? Have there been cases of mistakes in rulebooks? :o

[doubletoe]

Oh the right forward inside edge takeoff sounds crazy difficult... Cuz if you swing that left leg, you end up rotating against the rotation you need to go in?

Doubletoe, a mistake? Have there been cases of mistakes in rulebooks? :o

ROFLMAO! Just go to USFSA.org and check out the entire section on error corrections in the 2007 U.S. rulebook! :lol:

[Sessy]

Well in that case it probably IS an error. I just can't imagine they'd require any axel element from people who can just do a salchow and 1-foot-spin. 8O
And they generally name the waltz jump a "cadet" for the testing track and everything so why'd they suddenly start calling it an axel element?

Thanks :)

[daisies]

Oh the right forward inside edge takeoff sounds crazy difficult... Cuz if you swing that left leg, you end up rotating against the rotation you need to go in?
Actually, in my opinion, an inside axel is much easier than a regular axel. There's really no transfer of weight involved because you take off from the same leg on which you land. It's essentially a loop jump that takes off forward and has an extra 1/2 turn in the air! In fact, it's often mistaken for a loop jump if the spectator isn't paying close attention to the takeoff.

[techskater]

Ah but the scary thing about the inside Axel is that when done correctly, the free leg doesn't come through! Yikes!!

[Sessy]

So the inside axel would be a good exercise for the double loop? :lol:
Does anybody have a video of this magical beast?

[techskater]

No, totally different animals. The inside Axel (when done correctly) has the free foot toe to heel behind the skating foot in the air versus a tightly crossed in front position. That's why I called it a scary animal.

[SK8RX]

Here's an example of an inside axel. About 0:41 into the program Luc does an inside axel. This is from O'dorf 2007.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_HQZ3yLqEs

[Sessy]

Thanks! That's interesting, but I've never seen that done.

I think I'd rather learn a real axel. :lol:

[techskater]

Actually, that one came with the free foot in front a bit and according to our resident jump king, it needs to stay behind.

[daisies]

Ah but the scary thing about the inside Axel is that when done correctly, the free leg doesn't come through! Yikes!!
Hmm ... I've always done it at least *feeling* like my free leg is in front of my landing leg. Maybe it isn't! I'll have to dig out the old tapes!

[techskater]

Maybe according to our know-it-all Russian coach, you did it wrong! LOL!

[daisies]

It's quite possible, although no one ever said anything to me about it and I did it for years and years and years and got credit for it! I don't do them anymore so it really doesn't matter, but I will say that if it takes off the FI edge, goes around 1 1/2 times and lands on a BO edge of the same foot as takeoff, it counts -- the same way a regular axel would count, no matter where the free leg was. Your Russian coach may not like it, but it fulfills the requirement!

[techskater]

I agree. I just laugh to myself because our Russian coach is such a stickler and just makes the kids do it over and over and over with the foot behind.

[doubletoe]

I agree. I just laugh to myself because our Russian coach is such a stickler and just makes the kids do it over and over and over with the foot behind.

That's a little scary, considering it's worth absolutely nothing in competition, isn't a requirement for any test and won't even serve to prepare a skater for an axel or double loop (since the free leg is behind)! 8O

[daisies]

That's a little scary, considering it's worth absolutely nothing in competition, isn't a requirement for any test and won't even serve to prepare a skater for an axel or double loop (since the free leg is behind)! 8O
LOL, I was going to post the exact same thing! IIRC, the inside axel and 1-foot axel do count under IJS, but they are worth the exact same as a standard axel and occupy the axel box. I may be totally wrong though!

If I'm correct, I do see the point of a 1-foot axel -- you could do a salchow or flip off of the landing and it would be a true combination.

I don't see the point of an inside axel though. :)

techskater, do you know why this coach has his/her students doing so many inside axels?

ETA: My technical panel friend says inside axels and 1-foot axels are transitional elements. Still, some competition announcements I found online via Google state, "All references to the Axel jump include one foot Axel and inside Axel." Weird!

[doubletoe]

LOL, I was going to post the exact same thing! IIRC, the inside axel and 1-foot axel do count under IJS, but they are worth the exact same as a standard axel and occupy the axel box. I may be totally wrong though!

If I'm correct, I do see the point of a 1-foot axel -- you could do a salchow or flip off of the landing and it would be a true combination.

I don't see the point of an inside axel though. :)

techskater, do you know why this coach has his/her students doing so many inside axels?

ETA: My technical panel friend says inside axels and 1-foot axels are transitional elements. Still, some competition announcements I found online via Google state, "All references to the Axel jump include one foot Axel and inside Axel." Weird!

I'm not sure, but I have the feeling the inside axel would be an unlisted jump, since it takes off from a different foot and edge and therefore doesn't fit the description of the standard axel. However, the IJS rules clearly state that a jump can be landed on either foot and still count as long it's fully rotated (with the exception of the half loop, which is singled out as a non-listed jump). It's up to the judges to deduct -GOE if they feel that the landing on the other foot was a flaw. I personally would love to see someone do a 1-foot axel into a salchow! I'm about 85% sure it would be marked as a combination and given full credit (the other 15% of me sees the TS and judges going "what the heck just happened?!").

[dbny]

Here's an example of an inside axel. About 0:41 into the program Luc does an inside axel. This is from O'dorf 2007.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_HQZ3yLqEs


This clip led me to explore other adult skating comps. Tucked in among the Adult Pairs, I found this clip of adult pairs norwegian champs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfglusD_HGs&mode=related&search=). Got a real kick out of it too :lol:.

[chowskates]

I'm not sure, but I have the feeling the inside axel would be an unlisted jump, since it takes off from a different foot and edge and therefore doesn't fit the description of the standard axel. However, the IJS rules clearly state that a jump can be landed on either foot and still count as long it's fully rotated (with the exception of the half loop, which is singled out as a non-listed jump). It's up to the judges to deduct -GOE if they feel that the landing on the other foot was a flaw. I personally would love to see someone do a 1-foot axel into a salchow! I'm about 85% sure it would be marked as a combination and given full credit (the other 15% of me sees the TS and judges going "what the heck just happened?!").

If I didn't remember wrong, a prelim skater did an inside axel - double Sal - flip sequence at our Nationals, and only the double Sal - flip was called.

[NoVa Sk8r]

From one of the USFSA clarification documents posted a while back:

A one-foot Axel is considered an Axel jump element, although it is not specifically listed in the ISU Scale of Values. It is an exception to the rule and will be counted as fulfilling the requirement of an "Axel type jump," as well as a jump element.

Note: Walley jumps and inside Axels are not found in the ISU Scale of Values. These jumps, along with half turn jumps such as half loop, split jump, stag jump and falling leaf, are not considered to be jump elements in the new
well-balanced program rules and are not limited. These jumps are referred to in this clarification as "Unclassified Jumps." Be advised that these Unclassified Jumps will not increase a skater’s technical merit mark. Judges will evaluate such Unclassified Jumps as transitions/skating movements. The inside axel jump will not fulfill the requirement for an "axel type jump."