flip jump landing

[froggy]

I hope someone can give me some advice on the flip. I've been practicing the flip over the past 2 weeks and I keep two footing the landing, any advice on how to avoid it? (I am ccw) I've been doing the half flip with my coach a lot and when I have suggested if I can start with her the flip she said b/c my half flip is not solid (I tend to be square and/or pick too close to my skating leg on takeoff) she does not want me to do the flip. In any case being so impatient I began practicing on my own and truthfully I feel since I know i need to make a full revolution I am more determined to have a good takeoff position and in practice I do actually make it all the way around but I land with two feet! your comments and suggestions are most welcome. thank you!!!

[herniated]

Froggy, I hate to be a party pooper, but I think it might be best to listen to your coach and get the set up right in the half flip first.:cry:

But... You said you rotate ccw? And, you tend to be square in the take off? Do you mean that you open up your arms? If this is so, then make sure your left arm is in front of you, and/or slightly across and your right arm is behind you with the thumb up. This will rotate your right shoulder and scapula - back. And reach back with your right leg while keeping the upper body straight. In other words don't bend or 'break' at the waist. Imagine the back of your head pressing against a wall. Anyway, those are my words of wisdom:lol:

Again, it may be best to wait. You don't want to get hurt.8O

[froggy]

[
But... You said you rotate ccw? And, you tend to be square in the take off? Do you mean that you open up your arms?

I jump/spin ccw. square meaning my right shoulder starts to creep around instead of being pulled back.

I like the idea of keeping my right thumb up! Ill try that next time I skate.

[herniated]

Hope it helps, that what my coach tells me. I skate CW so I reversed all the directions for you. I tend to open up on the jump too. (My coach says I look like a helicopter!) I've been doing the flip for a long time now but I still need redirection on it.

If the the thumb is turned under, it drops the shoulder and the whole right side (for you). Good luck!!

[Sessy]

I was two-footing it at first as well. What helps me is
1. Practice the take-off and the landing, without actually rotating, and concentrate on landing on 1 foot and getting the take-off right.
2. Practice a lot of loops or, if you already have a loop, practice flip-loop instead of just flip. I know it sounds insane, but because you think of doing the loop behind the flip, you automatically get in the right position over your right side.

After 2 weeks however, I'm not really surprised you're still two footing, the flip is pretty tricky compared to the toe-loop and the salchow, the mechanics are different. The flip, lutz and loop have something different about them compared to salchow and toeloop, not sure what, but the three jumps are sort of alike like that. I started on the flip without the coach and the problem was, I was rotating over the left side of my body (I'm ccw). Which you can pull off to do on the sal and toeloop (it's WRONG but you can somehow squeeze out a landing, I could anyway) but with the flip you REALLY need to be rotating over the right side (for CCW, left side for CW).
So practice the loop (not half-loop, that one doesn't rotate over the right side) and practice backspins and practice the takeoff without the rotation, just focussing on picking, pulling, going UP, staying straight and square in the air, your free leg in front of your picking leg in the air, and landing on your picking leg. Do this for like 500 times, then start adding rotation. The rotation will come surprisingly easy somehow. It's all about jumping UP, not trying to swing your arms around or anything.
Also keep that right shoulder (left for ccw) back before takeoff.
Pick low. Pick with a straight leg, not a kneebend (on the picking leg).

You can practice the loop on socks VERY well as well on the floor of any slippery surface (floortiles, parquet, laminat, plastic, etc) Helps a lot for the flip as well.

[Sk8pdx]

...
So practice the loop (not half-loop, that one doesn't rotate over the right side) and practice backspins and practice the takeoff without the rotation, just focussing on picking, pulling, going UP, staying straight and square in the air, your free leg in front of your picking leg in the air, and landing on your picking leg. Do this for like 500 times, then start adding rotation. The rotation will come surprisingly easy somehow. It's all about jumping UP, not trying to swing your arms around or anything.
Also keep that right shoulder (left for ccw) back before takeoff.
Pick low. Pick with a straight leg, not a kneebend (on the picking leg).

You can practice the loop on socks VERY well as well on the floor of any slippery surface (floortiles, parquet, laminat, plastic, etc) Helps a lot for the flip as well.

Some good advice Sessy, Thanks! I just had to laugh about the 500 times bit. I am so glad because I was thinking it would take me more like a million times. :lol:

[Sessy]

Haha nah. :lol:
It does help though to spread those out over a period, not do them all in 1 lesson, if you wanna build muscle memory.

Oh yeah and by picking low I meant... Just like, from the 3-turn, you'll have your leg at a certain angle behind you. Pick from that angle, reach back at most, but never LIFT your picking leg before picking. Some people think that if they lift the leg as high as possible and then slam the pick into the ice as hard as possible, they'll get the most lift, but that's not true. Not sure whether you had this for your half-flip or not since we don't do half-jumps in the Netherlands and start on the real ones right away.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Make sure that when you pick in you're picking straight back and not off to your right. That's a common mistake, but it makes you jump up with your feet farther apart, and you don't rotate quite as fast that way, plus you don't get that "pull" back toward your picking foot. It's hard to say without seeing you if this is part of the problem, but I find that skaters who do this are often *just* short of full rotation (not having your feet together makes you less aerodynamic in the air), and when the landing is a bit short the other foot often goes down.

Sometimes it helps to go back to the half-flip to work on that take-off, making sure you're picking in straight back behind you and pulling back toward your picking foot before actually jumping.

[Isk8NYC]

There's a 1:10 rule - for every bad attempt, it takes 10 good attempts to overcome the muscle memory that develops. Most people call it "bad habits." You're probably two-footing your full flip because of the same errors you've made on your half flip. I would listen to your coach, because you might develop some bad habits.

Get that half-flip down solid first, then work with the coach on the full flip.
Remember that a split/stag jump is just a fancy half-flip! LOL

Try this:

Set up the entry edge for the half-flip

Hold your picking foot behind you about 3" above the ice, toepicks DOWN

Keep your arms checked to the picking side

Bend your skating knee

Stand up straight - don't break at the waist

Toe in straight back, draw your feet together and


JUMP straight up in the air


Bring your arms together in front at mid-chest

Pull your feet together and point your landing toe (This is important for the landing)


Land on the toe pick and immediately push off onto a FI edge on the other foot

Cross-check the arms on the landing to stop the rotation and hold the edge

I've grown to appreciate the half-flip in my Second Skatinghood - I can land it on both feet and I've begun to cross my feet in the air.

[slusher]

I didn't learn what a half flip was until I'd been doing a full flip and a split jump ("split=like" :P ) for more than two years. My coach didn't teach half jumps either.

[doubletoe]

To make sure you are getting the picking technique you need for the flip, try your flip takeoff on a hockey circle, at slow speed. Don't worry about doing any rotation. The point is to see if you are picking in the right place to enable rotation over the landing hip.
First, do the 3-turn (or mohawk) and make sure your back inside exit edge is on the circle. Now pick just like you do for a flip, pop up and land on both feet without rotating. Look at where your pick mark is on the ice. It should be right on the circle. If it is inside the circle, you are picking too far out to the side and it is probably because you aren't keeping your picking side shoulder back long enough.
The entire picking side works together. The right leg and right arm reach back together for the pick, and the right arm/shoulder stays back until your pick is in the ice and your picking leg starts coming back toward your body (which is actually because you are pulling your whole body back with the pick until the skating foot almost meets the picking foot). As the picking foot pulls you back and comes back towards the skating foot, the right arm does the same thing at the same rate so that your shoulders and hips are finally squared with both feet under you as you actually leave the ice. Your hips will twist as your body squares and you take off, but your left hip and shoulder will stay closed as your right side turns in to meet them. Your head does not turn to the left and your left arm stays right in front of you so you can see your fingertips even after the pick is in the ice. This ensures that your weight stays over the landing side.
This is also the difference between the full flip and the half flip. With the half flip (or split jump, which you should try if you think the half flip isn't exciting enough!), you open out the left hip and shoulder and turn your head to face the direction of travel, so that aspect of the half flip is completely different. Practice lots of loops before trying the full flip, because as soon as you leave the ice it is exactly the same jump.

[froggy]

wow thanks so much for all the great advice here!! you are all so terrific!! I can't wait to get back on the ice after the weekend to try it out!

ill definately put up a post when i (finally) land it solid!

enjoy your memorial day weekend!!