Interesting article

[Logan3]

You might find this article interesting. It ties well with some of the discussions on this board.

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070504/LIFE/705040332


My question is how come there is nothing in place to help skaters like Emmanuel? He is 9, undercoached and has his triples. HE is also a HE and USFSA is stuggling internationally on this front. Is it because skating is not popular so there is no money at all ?

[Tennisany1]

I agree figure skating is a difficult sport to participate in if you don't have the income level necessary. Now, perhaps I'm just feeling grumpy, but I find it interesting that they talk about Emanual landing triple jumps at 9 but not mention of his placement at regionals or nationals. Surely a 9 year old who can land triples must be on the USFA's radar. I'm not American, so I don't know how the USFA works, but it seems a bit strange. Then again, perhaps I'm too cynical.

Does anyone train at this rink?

[AW1]

I agree figure skating is a difficult sport to participate in if you don't have the income level necessary. Now, perhaps I'm just feeling grumpy, but I find it interesting that they talk about Emanual landing triple jumps at 9 but not mention of his placement at regionals or nationals. Surely a 9 year old who can land triples must be on the USFA's radar. I'm not American, so I don't know how the USFA works, but it seems a bit strange. Then again, perhaps I'm too cynical.

Does anyone train at this rink?

I figured by the article that his mum wouldn't be able to afford to send him to any big comps like regionals or nationals.

I agree it's an intersting article. I think when I was watching last years USFS championships, there was a young guy who was from the Bronx or something who grew up really poor but figure skating was the only thing that kept him out of trouble with the law. Can't remember his name, but it was a really interesting piece on him, and how he couldn't afford a choreographer so he does most of his own chorey. I think from memory he skated to some fairly heavy rock guitar piece - sounded like it could have been Jimi Hendrix or something like that....

[sk8pics]

I don't believe Emmanuel is landing all his triples. The article did not indicate how many triples he has. Also, he has been to Junior Nationals at least once, maybe twice. He was 6th last time in Juvenile boys.

[Rob Dean]

I don't believe Emmanuel is landing all his triples. The article did not indicate how many triples he has. Also, he has been to Junior Nationals at least once, maybe twice. He was 6th last time in Juvenile boys.

He and Andrew have both been in the last three Nationals send-off shows at UD, and Emmanuel's listing in the '06 program mentions his placement at South Atlantics (3rd). They were both there on Tuesday when I walked through the main rink on my way to my dance lesson.

For what it's worth, at UD's walk-in rate, skating 2 sessions/day 5 days/week consistently would be the same price as the September-June contract fee, which covers 3 sessions/day plus some off ice training:

http://www.udel.edu/icearena/issdc/register.html

Rob

[Logan3]

My intend was not to comment on Emmanuel's performance, rather if USFSA has any money to help *rising* stars. With rising I mean skaters that you can see have potential if they are coached right etc not the ones that are already in the top. My understanding is that if you want to produce olympic champions you go out there and help as many skaters as your finances afford. From your comments I gather that he is not *that* good to deserve help. I do not know him and I never watched him skating. I am sorry to have used his name. I meant the discussion to be more general. I was just wondering if USFSA has any money to help athletes. I know that the sport is declining in popularity and they struggle to get tv air time etc etc.

[Clarice]

USFSA gives money to athletes through the team envelopes, so "rising stars" have to have risen at least that high on their own before they get funding. It would be next to impossible to determine who would get money otherwise, since just about everybody would do better if they could get better coaching, more ice time, etc. A skater has to prove themselves first, through placement at competitions. Any assistance otherwise comes from sponsors the skater finds on their own, or through foundations like the one Michael Weiss has. There's really not a lot of help at the lower levels.

[Rob Dean]

From your comments I gather that he is not *that* good to deserve help. I do not know him and I never watched him skating. I am sorry to have used his name. I meant the discussion to be more general. I was just wondering if USFSA has any money to help athletes. ...

I wouldn't say that at all--he's very good. However, to regeneralize this, USFSA just announded their team funding envelopes on their web site in the last few days, and they don't reach that far down in the qualification levels. Whether they have money to support promising skaters at levels below novice I do not know. It appears that you have to put in years of training (with the dedicated training expense levels) before there's any chance of getting any support or sponsorships. Hence private things like this:

http://www.michaelweiss.org/

Rob

[Logan3]

It would be next to impossible to determine who would get money otherwise, since just about everybody would do better if they could get better coaching, more ice time, etc.

I actually agree with your but my understanding is that a sport's popularity and success starts from the early stages. In the begining you do not give money because you exactly identified who will make it. You give money in order to incease motivation, participation and attention. This way you get money back so you have more to give to your champions. It is a cycle. Anyway, just some ideas for the shake of discussion. It will not be the first time I am totally wrong :D :D

[thumbyskates]

The article mentions that they pay $30 for 20 minutes of lessons.
If he is a prodigy as the article mentions, which I don't doubt, why doesn't he find a lesser known coach, at a lesser known club and start to make it that way. If you have natural talent, I believe you could do this path, make it to the top this way for much less money.

[phoenix]

Some clubs will reward members who make it past regionals or sectionals. I think my club used to give ice time to skaters who made it to JN or nationals. I don't know if they still do.

I think that sort of thing would be a great thing to help/encourage those skaters who are just starting to show promise, but haven't risen high enough yet to get National level funding.

[Clarice]

I actually agree with your but my understanding is that a sport's popularity and success starts from the early stages. In the begining you do not give money because you exactly identified who will make it. You give money in order to incease motivation, participation and attention. This way you get money back so you have more to give to your champions. It is a cycle. Anyway, just some ideas for the shake of discussion. It will not be the first time I am totally wrong :D :D

So what criteria would you use to decide who gets additional funding and who doesn't?

[Logan3]

So what criteria would you use to decide who gets additional funding and who doesn't?

So your position is that USFSA has money to give to lower levels but the problem is that there is no way to identify who deserves it.
ok.

[Skittl1321]

So your position is that USFSA has money to give to lower levels but the problem is that there is no way to identify who deserves it.
ok.


I'm not even sure if USFSA has additional money to give. But if they did- I think it would be near impossible to determine how to give to those in the lower levels. If there was more money out there- I think I'd like to see the criteria for making it into an "envelope" extended to allow for funding for more junior/senior level skaters.

[dooobedooo]

I don't know if this is the case in the US, but in the UK there a number of trusts and charities that support education and diverse sporting endeavour. You just have to do the groundwork to find one that will support you. In the UK there are a couple of books which you can find in public libraries which list such organisations. It will still mean quite a lot of letter-writing etc to achieve a result.

You might also talk informally with officials in your club to see if there is a local person who is interested in supporting a promising youngster.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Clarice]

So your position is that USFSA has money to give to lower levels but the problem is that there is no way to identify who deserves it.
ok.

No, actually I don't think they have any more money to dole out than they already do. If they had more, I think they'd do what Skittl1321 suggests, and extend the envelope system.

[Sylvia]

However, to regeneralize this, USFSA just announded their team funding envelopes on their web site in the last few days, and they don't reach that far down in the qualification levels.
Here's the link to the 2007-08 U.S. team envelope criteria for Novice, Junior and Senior level skaters, based on 2007 U.S. Nationals results and international results in 2006-07: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?cat=2&sid=35400

Whether they have money to support promising skaters at levels below novice I do not know.
U.S. Figure Skating also has a Developmental Team which gives a stipend to the top 3 finishers in the Juvenile and Intermediate events (ladies, men, pairs, dance) at "Junior" Nationals.

I agree it's an intersting article. I think when I was watching last years USFS championships, there was a young guy who was from the Bronx or something who grew up really poor but figure skating was the only thing that kept him out of trouble with the law. Can't remember his name, but it was a really interesting piece on him, and how he couldn't afford a choreographer so he does most of his own chorey. I think from memory he skated to some fairly heavy rock guitar piece - sounded like it could have been Jimi Hendrix or something like that....
Rohene Ward, a senior level male skater from Minneapolis, Minnesota. His short program from 2006 U.S. Nationals was a fine effort (9th place), as he was one of 5 guys who attempted a quad toe combo (he fell), and he landed a good triple axel and triple lutz.

[AW1]

Rohene Ward, a senior level male skater from Minneapolis, Minnesota. His short program from 2006 U.S. Nationals was a fine effort (9th place), as he was one of 5 guys who attempted a quad toe combo (he fell), and he landed a good triple axel and triple lutz.

see and I was sure the commentator said he was from the Bronx, but is that just a term used commonly in the US as somewhere that's a poor area? But that is him thanks Sylvia. I liked his program, and thought he did really well.

[techskater]

US Figure Skating doesn't stop skaters at lower levels from seeking sponsorship. A skater can attempt to get a sponsor if they're talented but have no money. I had a friend back in the 80s who had a sponsor from the first day he set foot on the ice (he was definitely full of natural talent) and that was when it was much more strict as to who could give you money, how it was distributed, etc.

FWIW, our rink gives ice in exchange to skaters who's parents are ice monitors. Some rinks give skaters ice in exchange for helping with LTS classes (although 9 is a little young for that) or whose parents work at the rink. This would reduce a skater's costs to skates and coaching.

The article is a bit sensationalistic in that it doesn't mention other things these folks could do to reduce their costs at the rink. :frus:

[Skittl1321]

see and I was sure the commentator said he was from the Bronx, but is that just a term used commonly in the US as somewhere that's a poor area? But that is him thanks Sylvia. I liked his program, and thought he did really well.

No, Bronx isn't used as a general saying for "poor area" - and really there are poorer boroughs of NYC- but I did find an interview where he says he grew up in the "ghetto of Minneapolis" so maybe the commentator was comparing the two areas??

[AW1]

No, Bronx isn't used as a general saying for "poor area" - and really there are poorer boroughs of NYC- but I did find an interview where he says he grew up in the "ghetto of Minneapolis" so maybe the commentator was comparing the two areas??

oh okay thanks ;)

[UDsk8coach]

The article mentions that they pay $30 for 20 minutes of lessons.
If he is a prodigy as the article mentions, which I don't doubt, why doesn't he find a lesser known coach, at a lesser known club and start to make it that way. If you have natural talent, I believe you could do this path, make it to the top this way for much less money.

Bc the best coaches are at UD... I'm a little biased ;) but Emmanuel does take from some of the top names in coaching. I look up to those coaches, as do many others. I dont think he would have as much success if he took from someone w a lesser known background. Remember, skating is "political"... half the time its just as important to have a popular coach at the boards, as it is to skate a clean program.

Also, UD pumps out some of the best skaters... how many UD skaters went to senior nationals?? A BUNCH!! I dont know of any other "club" or training center that sends 10+ skaters to nationals. They have an impressive track record, and if you are going to invest time & what money you have into your child's training, wouldn't you want it to be the best?? I would!

I know some coaches that, when they have a talented skater, dont always charge for all the lessons given. I can't say if that is the case w E. or not. But I see it in the coaches best interest to have a successful skater, not to be so worried about the income, esp. bc the majority of coaches at that caliber dont *need* the income - they have plenty saved, as well as many other students to supplement their income.

[Schmeck]

USFSA will not fund a child so young - there have been way too many young prodigies that crash and burn to do this effectively.

We've got a half dozen skaters just at our club that can do all of Sasha Cohen's "signature" moves and have a few triples. They're all 10-13 years old... Which one would you fund to be the next Sasha Cohen?

If he's that good, he'll find a way to get to the money...

[techskater]

http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=38710&type=news

Money is available for those who look for it....

[twokidsskatemom]

http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=38710&type=news

Money is available for those who look for it....
For one of those, you need to be in high school.
For the other, you need to have gone to sectionals as a Novice, junior or senior AND placed 6th or higher.. OR place in the top 6 at JR nats.
So for kids that havent gotten that far yet, that doesnt help them at all.

[techskater]

Supposedly the kid in the article had been to JNs and placed 6th, so his family would qualify.

[kayskate]

USFSA will not fund a child so young - there have been way too many young prodigies that crash and burn to do this effectively.

We've got a half dozen skaters just at our club that can do all of Sasha Cohen's "signature" moves and have a few triples. They're all 10-13 years old... Which one would you fund to be the next Sasha Cohen?



Okay. I'm not a competitive skater. I am an adult skater and LTS coach. I want to comment on the above b/c I have seen similar. I can even do some of the elite sig moves at 40 yrs old. My guess would be that many kids can do some skills but not "well" or consistently. And I doubt they have her footwork (but I don't know them. I am talking in general about "good" local skaters). They may do certain skills at the expense of others such as good all-around skating. A kid who can do a few triples and Cohen's sig moves sounds impressive, but if you have not seen the kid for yourself it is impossible to say how well the moves are done or how well the kid can skate an over-all program.

So which one would I pick if I were a sponsor? The one who does the moves well and consistently and is a strong overall skater. JMO.

Kay