Training to be a rec. skater, VS. training to become a serious famous one.

[FSWer]

Say, I was wondering what exactully makes the difference in trainning to be a rec. skater,and learning all the moves,etc.,vs. trainning to become a serious famous skater? I'm assuming it's all in how long you train and all. But I'm just wondering how right I really am. Does anyone know? Thanks.

[Sessy]

Apart from those points you mentioned, how good the quality of your private lessons is and how young you start are big factors. Also how much the rest of your life is about skating, cuz when you're trying to be *really* good at something, all of the rest of your life is about skating and I don't mean hanging on skating forums, I mean like, what you eat, when you sleep, even who you're friends with.

[Mrs Redboots]

There's no difference, because you don't know, when you start out, what you're going to be.

After all, only about 1% of those who start a six-week course of Learn-to-skate lessons go on to take their Level 1 or Preliminary test (the lowest level standard test in whichever country you are), and only about 1% of those who do that get up to Level 6 - that's the equivalent, I think, of Novice in the USFSA system.

But in terms of training, there's no difference at all. And there's also no difference in the corrections you get, either! We train alongside the no 2 dance couple in this country, and they do some of the exact same exercises that we do (very disheartening for us, when we see how well they do them!), and I've heard their coach shout the exact same corrections that we get, mostly in terms of (all together now): BEND YOUR KNEES!

[Clarice]

I agree with Mrs. Redboots. Coaches, even famous ones, teach both recreational and competitive skaters, and give the same instruction to both. Coaches can recognize students with talent fairly early on, but can't predict who will succeed in the long run. Sometimes the most talented ones burn out early, or are forced out due to growth or injury, or just develop other interests. Sometimes less talented skaters can become very successful due to plain hard work. And, anyway, technique is technique, whether somebody is going to do their jumps in competition or just for fun. No doubt, serious competitors generally DO put in more time than those who are skating just for recreation, but I know a lot of recreational skaters who take their skating very seriously and work very hard during the time they spend on the ice. We all learn the same things, but some skaters progress further and faster. Sessy's right about the quality of instruction, though - if you're not taught good technique from the start, it's going to be much harder to progress to the top levels, no matter what you do.

[Sessy]

Haha last year when I was just learning my 3-turns, I decided to go to the Summer Ice in Heerenveen anyway. Patch ice, basically, very expensive, and you can't just reserve it either - they put me through to the manager to speak about it (VERY intimidating for me, back then at least) but I was just addicted to skating so I could go onto the ice too, yay! They had Kyra Vancrayelinghe (however you spell that) and Karin Venhuizen training there with a Russian coach from the UK, who'd should at them, "bend your knees" and "look UP, not at the ice!". That was refreshing. Also very intimidating, but refreshing. :lol:

[Amandaskategirl]

Yeah I agree, I often skate on skating sessions with four triple jumpers on the ice and I often overhear them getting similar corrections to what I get. I think the real difference in terms of training is that they skate 3 or 4 times per DAY and I skate 2/3 times per week. (Oh yeah and my obvious lack of talent makes a difference!) They also go to the gym most days and do lots of off ice too. For them a ‘rest day’ is coaching at the weekend and only doing maybe one session on the ice.

People who don’t know skating have asked me why I am not entering the Olympics seeing as I skate ‘all the time’ but they don’t realise how many hours high level skaters actually do put in. Although I do know one skater who skates twice a week and can land a couple of triples….:bow:

[stardust skies]

But in terms of training, there's no difference at all.

Aside for the fact that people training to be elites (or remain there) get an hour of lessons a day instead of an hour of lessons a week, and skate 3 hours a day, instead of 3 hours a week. Of course some recreational skaters skate more than that, but generally speaking, the main difference in training would be the amount of it.

And the fact that if you're a recreational skater, it's not called "training". Just like recreational skaters aren't "athletes", they just do sports. There's a difference. In fact, there are a ton more differences between the two, but these are the main ones that I think are important to discern.

[Mrs Redboots]

Aside for the fact that people training to be elites (or remain there) get an hour of lessons a day instead of an hour of lessons a week, and skate 3 hours a day, instead of 3 hours a week. Of course some recreational skaters skate more than that, but generally speaking, the main difference in training would be the amount of it.

Yes, but that wasn't what the OP asked. He asked how training to become a recreational skater differed from training to become an elite skater. As everybody starts out as a recreational skater, there is no difference! And at my rink, almost everybody trains at least four days a week, no matter what level they are! They may or may not have lessons every day, but you go into the rink and there they are, working away. The young go back after school, too, which we elder ones tend not to (my husband does, actually, well, after work, but then, he can only train for 45 minutes in the mornings).

And the fact that if you're a recreational skater, it's not called "training". Just like recreational skaters aren't "athletes", they just do sports.
Sorry, but that turns out not to be the case. I expect that where you skate, you don't have the hordes of adults, often in their 50s or over, training very seriously for competition. We may be - we are - recreational skaters, but we still train, and we are still athletes.

[stardust skies]

Yes, but that wasn't what the OP asked. He asked how training to become a recreational skater differed from training to become an elite skater. As everybody starts out as a recreational skater, there is no difference! And at my rink, almost everybody trains at least four days a week, no matter what level they are! They may or may not have lessons every day, but you go into the rink and there they are, working away. The young go back after school, too, which we elder ones tend not to (my husband does, actually, well, after work, but then, he can only train for 45 minutes in the mornings).


Sorry, but that turns out not to be the case. I expect that where you skate, you don't have the hordes of adults, often in their 50s or over, training very seriously for competition. We may be - we are - recreational skaters, but we still train, and we are still athletes.


I think it probably depends on what definition you use of it. By USFS definition, the only skaters considered athletes are the ones put in funding envelopes. I guess I consider people not skating 3-4 hours a day to be "practicing" rather than training, but technically I guess it all means the same thing.

My point in the end though is that the difference between an elite and a recreational skater is, for the most part, amount of lessons, amount of ice time, pace of learning/teaching within the lessons, and such. You can't say there is no difference between someone training to go to the Olympics and someone training to go to a local ISI competition, even if they did have the same coach. If there weren't, they would both be training for the Olympics. You don't push someone to learn 3/3's if they're not going to go to elite internationals, for example. So you can't say it's the same exact lesson. Some kids who are landing clean doubles will get pushed to learn triples, and some won't. Even with the same coach. It all depends on where they're going and what their goals are, and also, of course, their capability to execute harder elements. Some people just can't learn a double axel, regardless of age.

I also disagree that everyone starts out as recreational skaters after LTS. I mean, in LTS you're what...5, 6 years old (if you have the potential to become an elite). Of course it's just for fun. But very soon after come daily private lessons if you're serious, and FS1-FS10 if you're not. By the time you're 8-10, you know which you're going to be, recreational, or serious competitor. And by then it isn't hard to tell. If the OP meant...the first time you step on the ice...how do you know what kind of skater you'll be..okay. But I'm thinking he meant more in the big picture. If not, then my bad.

[Mrs Redboots]

I think it probably depends on what definition you use of it. By USFS definition, the only skaters considered athletes are the ones put in funding envelopes. I guess I consider people not skating 3-4 hours a day to be "practicing" rather than training, but technically I guess it all means the same thing.

"Practising", surely, is what you do on those sessions when you aren't actively having a lesson.

My point in the end though is that the difference between an elite and a recreational skater is, for the most part, amount of lessons, amount of ice time, pace of learning/teaching within the lessons, and such. You can't say there is no difference between someone training to go to the Olympics and someone training to go to a local ISI competition, even if they did have the same coach. If there weren't, they would both be training for the Olympics.

Obviously not, but the mechanics of training are exactly the same, whether you are a rank beginner, a recreational dancer or a serious athlete at whatever level. You warm up, you get on the ice, you warm up, you do your exercises, you work your skills, you run through your programme, etc, etc, etc. And you do this whatever level you are, whether you're just learning your first 3-jump or whether you're working on your 4/3 combination.

You don't push someone to learn 3/3's if they're not going to go to elite internationals, for example. So you can't say it's the same exact lesson. Some kids who are landing clean doubles will get pushed to learn triples, and some won't. Even with the same coach. It all depends on where they're going and what their goals are, and also, of course, their capability to execute harder elements. Some people just can't learn a double axel, regardless of age.But that has nothing to do with how they train. The training is exactly the same, whether they skate one hour a week or three hours a day. The corrections are pretty much the same, too!

I also disagree that everyone starts out as recreational skaters after LTS. I mean, in LTS you're what...5, 6 years old (if you have the potential to become an elite).

Most of the potential elite skaters I've known have been older than that when they started.

Of course it's just for fun. But very soon after come daily private lessons if you're serious,

At that age, you mean if your mother is serious!

and FS1-FS10 if you're not. By the time you're 8-10, you know which you're going to be, recreational, or serious competitor.

Sorry, but that is nonsense. I know lots of people who started as adults and who are serious competitors.

Of course, if by "serious" you mean the Olympic Games - well, how many skaters is that in any one Olympic cycle. An absolute maximum of three per country - and normally only one, if that. That is something completely different - most of the kids who reach their national championships know quite well they won't make the Olympics, even though they'd love to.

But I know an awful lot of skaters, adults and kids, who take those competitions they do very seriously indeed. You don't think that someone of 87 flies all the way across the Atlantic to compete in France without being serious about it, do you?

[Skittl1321]

I think it probably depends on what definition you use of it. By USFS definition, the only skaters considered athletes are the ones put in funding envelopes.


It seems their website disagrees with you:they certainly have more people in their athlete bio section than they have in their funding envelopes.

[Rusty Blades]

Ok, lets throw away the "serious famous one" and call it "serious competitor" - I don't think there is anybody here who expects to be "famous" - LOL!

I started skating in January of 2006 and by the spring of 2006 I had set my sights on a national competition - I wanted to enter and not make a fool of myself so my focus was 100% on learning enough moves and putting them together into a reasonable first-time program.

I went from skating evening sessions with multiple recreational and "kiddie clubs" to early morning sessions at a "competitive training centre" (with a corresponding change in coaches) and YES, I did notice a number of differences.

First of all, the skaters have a different attitude and mind-set. The competitive skaters are VERY focused and dedicated. They arrive at the rink, get changed, and start working on their moves - it doesn't matter if their coach is there or not. There is very little chit-chat (aside from "Good morning") and the only time you see anyone at the boards is when they are taking a rest. When their time is up, they're gone! There is almost zero socializing - everybody is busy.

The other difference I noticed with the skaters is the "mutual recognition and respect". Anybody who is out there, on the ice, at 7 a.m. day after day is pretty serious about their skating and everybody recognizes that. (Even I am afforded that recognition.) If you are skating your program, you don't have to worry about anybody cutting you off - everybody else is watching out for you. You are also likely to get a round of applause when you finish :)

The session sizes are also quite different. The early morning competitive sessions range from "deserted" (this morning I was the only one there!) to maybe 6 or 8 skaters at most. At the "recreational" sessions, 10 to 18 was not unusual.

I also noticed a significant difference when I changed to "a competitive coach". With a competitive coach, the focus is VERY strongly on scoring well in competition. You may learn to skate an element but then immediately go on to enhance the presentation and add "embellishments". It isn't just about "doing the move" but about dressing it up and selling it to the judges.

It may be coincidence but I noticed the competitive coaches also handle their students differently - much more gingerly than many recreational coaches. It may be largely due to the fact that most competitive skaters are very driven and will push themselves HARD, maybe too hard, so the coach needs to keep their drive tempered. I also found competitive coaches are very good ego boosters! It doesn't matter if a skater's element STINKS, you'll never hear the coach say so - a big part of competition is CONFIDENCE and the competitive coaches seem good at building confidence and protecting it.

Your mileage may vary and I am sure there are many different flavours of competitive clubs out there but I wouldn't trade mine for most any other club!

(P.S. I did go to my competition in Mach and although I didn't skate my best, I am pleased with having done it and we are now working toward next year's adult championships.)

[doubletoe]

Some skaters actually do start out in private lessons. For example, there are two little kids (6 years old, but they started at 5) at my rink who are skating several hours a week and taking several lessons a week from coaches who also coach very high level skaters. These kids are mastering skills much faster than other kids their age whose parents have not put them on the "fast track".

If they don't care too much about mastering higher level skills and putting in the work to become competitive skaters, then they will fizzle out in a few years in one way or another. However, if they do have the drive to become nationally competitive, then they will increase their practices to about 20 hours a week and also increase their private lesson time, both of which seem to be the norm for the nationally ranked Intermediate through Senior level skaters.

[Mel On Ice]

I was at a spring exhibition/high school senior send-off party last night and of course my attention was trained on the senior girls who are in the later stages of their high school years or in college. We have only a handful of girls at the elite levels, and of those at that level, even fewer are competitive, and of those who are competitive, two went to sectionals, 1 went to nationals.

It made me sad, the rest of the girls work just as hard as the national-level competitor, but that little something extra is missing. I'm glad there are collegiate, synchro and even adult competitions available for them to fulfill the goal of reaching the upper levels of this sport if not exclusively via the Olympic/standard track.

[stardust skies]

"Practising", surely, is what you do on those sessions when you aren't actively having a lesson.
Obviously not, but the mechanics of training are exactly the same, whether you are a rank beginner, a recreational dancer or a serious athlete at whatever level. You warm up, you get on the ice, you warm up, you do your exercises, you work your skills, you run through your programme, etc, etc, etc. And you do this whatever level you are, whether you're just learning your first 3-jump or whether you're working on your 4/3 combination.

But that has nothing to do with how they train. The training is exactly the same, whether they skate one hour a week or three hours a day. The corrections are pretty much the same, too!

Most of the potential elite skaters I've known have been older than that when they started.

At that age, you mean if your mother is serious!

Sorry, but that is nonsense. I know lots of people who started as adults and who are serious competitors.

Of course, if by "serious" you mean the Olympic Games - well, how many skaters is that in any one Olympic cycle. An absolute maximum of three per country - and normally only one, if that. That is something completely different - most of the kids who reach their national championships know quite well they won't make the Olympics, even though they'd love to.

But I know an awful lot of skaters, adults and kids, who take those competitions they do very seriously indeed. You don't think that someone of 87 flies all the way across the Atlantic to compete in France without being serious about it, do you?

We will just have to agree to disagree, as is often the case with me vs the rest of the board. :) I don't agree with a single thing you said, but that's fine with me, because most everyone else will.

Will keep from making further replies in this thread so as to not cause argument.

[stardust skies]

It seems their website disagrees with you:they certainly have more people in their athlete bio section than they have in their funding envelopes.

Quick reply before I step out:

You're right, it isn't just envelopes, I was trying to keep it simple. Here's the definition of athlete per USFS standard if it helps:

http://www.unseenskaters.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5427

[sk8er1964]

Quick reply before I step out:

You're right, it isn't just envelopes, I was trying to keep it simple. Here's the definition of athlete per USFS standard if it helps:

http://www.unseenskaters.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5427


That's not really a definition of an "athlete", per se, it's a definition of who is eligible to vote for the athlete's delegates. Of course they have to limit participation in that, or the voting process would be too chaotic.

Using your logic, I am not an athlete because I finished .23 out of a medal this year at the US Adult championships, but the lady who barely finished ahead of me is. Now, if I get that L3 spiral sequence next year and finish .23 ahead of her, then I'm an athlete and she stops being one, right? That just does not make any sense.

[Sonic]

To me, this is a common sense issue.

I guess the difference is between a 'serious' skater and a 'recreational' skater is that the former has the aim in mind to skate as their profession - be it in the olympics, or perhaps to make a living out of skating - e.g. in ice shows/as a coach. Whereas a 'recreational' skater skates as a hobby.

That's not to say that if you skate a hobby, you're not a serious skater. If you skate as a hobby and do well there's no reason why you couldn't become a coach, or skate in an ice show - if you reach the required level.

Of course, elite skaters are going to have much more coaching, and train many hours a day.

I class myself as a recreational skater, and for me, part of the fun of skating is the amount of time I spend chin-wagging with my friends at the rink:oops:. On the other hand, I do also work hard - there's no other sport that would make me get up at 545am on a freezing January morning, and no other sport that would take up most of my disposable income - not to mention headspace.....

S xxx

[Skate@Delaware]

Ok, lets throw away the "serious famous one" and call it "serious competitor" - I don't think there is anybody here who expects to be "famous" - LOL!

Thanks for dashing my dreams....there goes my quest for the infamous SNOWFLAKE role!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

All kidding aside, skating will be what you make it. I'm 45 years old and a late-bloomer to the game. I skate recreationally, competitively, as an instructor, for fun, and in shows. Once again, I defy all definitions and description but I don't care-no one else pays my bills OR ice time fees!!!!

I SKATE FOR ME!!!!

[Rusty Blades]

Well the difference, SD, is between "famous" and "infamous" ;) 8O

[Skate@Delaware]

Well the difference, SD, is between "famous" and "infamous" ;) 8O
Well said! :bow:

[blackmanskating]

Thanks for dashing my dreams....there goes my quest for the infamous SNOWFLAKE role!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

All kidding aside, skating will be what you make it. I'm 45 years old and a late-bloomer to the game. I skate recreationally, competitively, as an instructor, for fun, and in shows. Once again, I defy all definitions and description but I don't care-no one else pays my bills OR ice time fees!!!!

I SKATE FOR ME!!!!

I couldn't have said it better myself S@D. The truth is, being considered an athlete is circumstantial. If you train with a goal of competing in a major competition, I'd consider you an athlete. Webster's defines an athlete as a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill. the difference is in the title: a recreational skater skates for recreation while a competitive skater skates to compete. Both can train very seriously and vigorously but their goals are different. Let's just leave it at that. It really doesn't matter what your goal is. . .just skate for yourself.

BlackManSkating

[doubletoe]

Now the real question is where did FSWer go, after starting this animated debate? And did you get the answer you wanted? ;)

[cecealias]

the difference is in the title: a recreational skater skates for recreation while a competitive skater skates to compete. Both can train very seriously and vigorously but their goals are different. Let's just leave it at that. It really doesn't matter what your goal is. . .just skate for yourself.
BlackManSkating

:bow: :bow: Thank you for saying that. I am SO sick of people telling me that i'm not considered serious despite training for so many hours every week and working double jumps successfully, because I don't compete.

[Rusty Blades]

... i'm not considered serious ... because I don't compete.

... of course you're not serious! 8O

(Dianne ducks for cover!)




;)

[cecealias]

LOL, Diane:lol:

[jazzpants]

Now the real question is where did FSWer go, after starting this animated debate? And did you get the answer you wanted? ;)He's probably busy starting another new threads on skatingforums... :P

(Jazzpants ducks for cover along with Rusty Blades...) :lol: ;)

[Isk8NYC]

Now the real question is where did FSWer go, after starting this animated debate? And did you get the answer you wanted? ;)Maybe the other boards "came back online" or his WebTV has locked him out of this board as well.
(I think it's the latter, he's been quiet on the other boards also.)
He'll be back, I'm sure. Rest assured that he WILL read and comment on all your posts; FSWer's very good that way.

[sceptique]

Say, I was wondering what exactully makes the difference in trainning to be a rec. skater,and learning all the moves,etc.,vs. trainning to become a serious famous skater? I'm assuming it's all in how long you train and all. But I'm just wondering how right I really am. Does anyone know? Thanks.

Here is a loose translation from a book written by a famous Russian sports shrink who councelled Yagudin etc. :

"I once askes Lena Vodorezova, who's had her share of drama in her skating life: "Would you be ready to die to win?" She snapped: "Yes!"
And then I asked this question to another skater, who seemed to have everything sorted out in her life; she gave me a guilty smile: "Not quite..."
She never realised herself in the sport [...] wasn't ready to give herself all..."

The irony is that I happen to know "the second skater" personally. To start with, she is an ex- World Junior silver medallist, and one of the top coaches in UK. To me, she more than "realised herself in the sport" (not mentioning a wonderful family, loads of friends and devoted students (including myself). But for someone like Yagudin's shrink, the only path worth pursuing is the one to the world/Olympic gold and one must be ready to put down his/her life for it. Perhaps, that's the difference....

[sceptique]

Haha last year when I was just learning my 3-turns, I decided to go to the Summer Ice in Heerenveen anyway. Patch ice, basically, very expensive, and you can't just reserve it either - they put me through to the manager to speak about it (VERY intimidating for me, back then at least) but I was just addicted to skating so I could go onto the ice too, yay! They had Kyra Vancrayelinghe (however you spell that) and Karin Venhuizen training there with a Russian coach from the UK, who'd should at them, "bend your knees" and "look UP, not at the ice!". That was refreshing. Also very intimidating, but refreshing. :lol:

I think I know the coach you were talking about.... :lol:

http://www.photoboxgallery.com/1641098/5615908

Is that him?

[flikkitty11]

I dont think there is much difference beween the 'recreational' and 'serious' skaters.
One thing i noticed though is the difference between the training in the lower level skaters and the higher level skaters. When i got to intermediate level (skipped primary (juvenile in usa i think) cos u gotta be 14 or under to compete it in australia adn im 15) i was allowed to skate special sessions for primary level and up. In the normal sessions there is lots of talking and playing around but in the higher sessions there is almost no talking and alot more focus. I also noticed that when i started skating the 'special' sessions i improved very quickly even though i skated the same hours/week. i think this is cos there is much more mental involvement in the 'special' sessions and there is more pressure on all the skaters to do their best in training.
sorry i kinda went off from the topic there...
im also ducking for cover cos i might of offended ppl who have complete focus when they train and arn't in higher levels (yet) ... sorry

Flik