ISU Technical Rule changes for 2007-08

[NoVa Sk8r]

Wow--much to read, savor, and discuss!
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

[Debbie S]

I guess Speedy and the Technical Committee must have heard Dick Button - they ditched the "ugly" spiral. I suspect, though, that we will see a lot of Charlotte spirals this season to get the "full split position" feature. What confuses me is the part about the upright spiral position counting if it is part of a change to a skater's core balance - does that mean a fan-type spiral? I would think raising your leg straight up also affects core balance, but if those spirals are gone, I'm happy. :)

Interesting about the 8 revs in the same position being a feature for spins - was that in the rules last year? I really miss seeing beautiful camel and layback positions being held long enough for viewers to actually admire what the skater was doing, as opposed to watching them contort themselves into 5 different positions for 2 revs each.

[BuggieMom]

Interesting about the 8 revs in the same position being a feature for spins - was that in the rules last year? I really miss seeing beautiful camel and layback positions being held long enough for viewers to actually admire what the skater was doing, as opposed to watching them contort themselves into 5 different positions for 2 revs each.

Our coach heard something about this just this past week. She also heard that the new judging system would be used all the way down through Preliminary this next year. Does this mean that even in the lower levels they have to hold a spin that long? And does that mean 8 revs for each position in combination spins also? I promise I read it, but honestly, reading that stuff makes my head spin (I guess thats OK as long as it spins more than 8 times):lol:
My dd has a beautiful flying camel, but it is certainly no where near 8 revs!
What's a Charlotte spiral?

[Debbie S]

Our coach heard something about this just this past week. She also heard that the new judging system would be used all the way down through Preliminary this next year.Really? Was that passed at Governing Council? I would think if it had, it would have been front and center on the USFSA website updates, and there was nothing about that there. Can anyone who went to GC confirm/deny this?


What's a Charlotte spiral?It's the spiral that Sasha Cohen (and Michelle Kwan) used to do - the one where they are skating backward (essentially on a flat, which would mean it wouldn't count as a spiral, so I guess next season's versions will have to be on an edge) and drop their upper body downward so that their nose nearly touches their skating leg, and their free leg is raised up straight behind them in a full split position. It was named after a skater in the early 1900s named Charlotte (I think she was German) who did that move in ice shows.

[coskater64]

The ISU is the overseeing body of all figure skating, it makes the rules that all other ISU skating committees follow(USA, UK, GER, JPN, RUS...etc). So, US figure skating might have had some say as a member of the ISU but it was not a part of US figure skating governing council.

[jenlyon60]

IJS will be used through Juvenile (i.e. all levels of qualifying competition). I don't remember any mention at GC of IJS being used below Juvenile.

[Joan]

What's a Charlotte spiral?
http://home.snafu.de/eberl/knowledge/fsmoves/charlotte-spiral_cohen_sasha_usa_jwm00_qb_d_tino_eberl.jpg

[BuggieMom]

Wow! That's amazing...thanks Joan
I hope that I was way off base about the IJS being used through Prelim. Our coach heard that from other coaches at our rink, and she is kinda freakin' out about it.

[doubletoe]

Whoa! I was hoping they would close the footwork vs. spiral sequence gap by making it easier to get a L3 or L4 footwork sequence, not by making it harder to get a L3 or L4 spiral sequence., but noooo. . .

And what's with THIS: "Only the first 3 attempted positions are to be considered for Level features." 8O

What this means is that it will now be absolutely impossible to get a L3 or L4 spiral sequence without being ridiculously flexible. If only the first 3 spiral positions count, and you need 4 features for a L4, then you'll need to get two features at the same time on two of the spirals, and that can only be done by executing the spiral in either a full split or Biellmann position. For example, you'd need a forward change edge spiral (which counts as 2 positions) in full split position, then a back spiral on the other foot in Biellmann position in order to get a L4. Since I don't have enough flexibility for a full split or Biellmann, I have to do 5 spiral positions to achieve my L4 (one of them being the "ugly" spiral that will no longer be a feature) so I will lose 2 levels as a result of the new rule. :cry:

[Skittl1321]

Really? Was that passed at Governing Council? I would think if it had, it would have been front and center on the USFSA website updates, and there was nothing about that there. Can anyone who went to GC confirm/deny this?


It's the spiral that Sasha Cohen (and Michelle Kwan) used to do - the one where they are skating backward (essentially on a flat, which would mean it wouldn't count as a spiral, so I guess next season's versions will have to be on an edge) and drop their upper body downward so that their nose nearly touches their skating leg, and their free leg is raised up straight behind them in a full split position. It was named after a skater in the early 1900s named Charlotte (I think she was German) who did that move in ice shows.

I've seen someone do a Charlotte traveling forward too (not in competition)! But that's a heck of a scary spiral to catch a toe-pick on, so I assume that's why most travel backward.

[slusher]

ho ho, the triple twist is coming back. Well it never left, but now it's worth more.

[Terri C]

Interesting.
NoVa, I'll bet you had a field day with all the pair's stuff.
I paid particular attention to the sitspin ruling that stated that the skating knee cannot be above the buttocks! Something to think about for next week. ;)

[saras]

Whoa! I was hoping they would close the footwork vs. spiral sequence gap by making it easier to get a L3 or L4 footwork sequence, not by making it harder to get a L3 or L4 spiral sequence., but noooo. . .

And what's with THIS: "Only the first 3 attempted positions are to be considered for Level features."


Since using all four edges (Forward/Backwards; Inside/Outside) gets you a level - but they only count the first three spirals for level purposes - there's no way to get a level by using all four edges, right???? Or is there some creative math that I don't know about ?!

[doubletoe]

Since using all four edges (Forward/Backwards; Inside/Outside) gets you a level - but they only count the first three spirals for level purposes - there's no way to get a level by using all four edges, right???? Or is there some creative math that I don't know about ?!

No, this is just a typical case of inaccurate wording in ISU communications. This level-raising feature actually just means you need: both inside edge and outside edge, both forward and backward, and at least one spiral on each foot. So if you have a RFI spiral, a RFO spiral and a LBI spiral, you've got it.

[doubletoe]

Interesting.
NoVa, I'll bet you had a field day with all the pair's stuff.
I paid particular attention to the sitspin ruling that stated that the skating knee cannot be above the buttocks! Something to think about for next week. ;)

Does it really say the skating knee cannot be above the buttocks? That sounds @ss-backwards to me! :lol:

[mikawendy]

Does it really say the skating knee cannot be above the buttocks? That sounds @ss-backwards to me! :lol:

I know, really! I liked the 90 degree bend in the knee better as a guideline. (Still tough to get that deep for back sit, but honestly--there are eligible senior-level skaters who don't get their buttocks in line with their knee for their back sit....)

[Debbie S]

Does it really say the skating knee cannot be above the buttocks?No, it's the reverse - the buttocks cannot be above the skating knee. I guess if they are, the spin will be called an upright? I heard that happened at O'dorf (ISU adult comp) last year with quite a few sit spins.

My sit position has gotten lower, but my butt is definitely higher than my skating knee. But since Bronze is not being judged under IJS (at least for the time being) and since I'll likely be Bronze For Life ;) , I guess I'm OK - lol.

[tidesong]

Interesting, I just realized something, does a spiral in a sidesplit count for both the split point and the difficult position point at the same time? 8O
I'm wondering if a spiral with change of edge, is that counted two positions? (I'm glad they removed the must incl backward inside edge spiral position, makes it easier to plan a layout)
aka would a RFI split with hand hold change edge to RFO (no hands) then LBO beilmann be a level 4 spiral seq?

edit: uh sorry I realized double toe gave that as an example for a l4 spiral seq...

[NoVa Sk8r]

No, this is just a typical case of inaccurate wording in ISU communications. This level-raising feature actually just means you need: both inside edge and outside edge, both forward and backward, and at least one spiral on each foot. So if you have a RFI spiral, a RFO spiral and a LBI spiral, you've got it."Inaccurate" is accurate. There are quite a few ambiguities in the ISU (mis)Communication.

I am glad that there was mention of the "basic" spin positions, in addition to the "intermediate" positions. But the wording in some of the clarification here is confusing.

I am awaiting the USFSA's take on this. They often release an interpretation/heads-up document, spelling out how the new rules are to be interpreted and what skaters need to look out for.
So perhaps the change of edge in the spiral sequence will be clarified.
And I just *love* the actual wording--ick:
"Change of position in Spirals: A change of free leg position or direction of skating and a change of edge must be done not at the same time in order to be counted as features for a Level."
[OK, enough grousing on this front.]

There are some welcome changes in my book:
-The same spin (i.e., having the same code) cannot be performed. At least this will partly encourage different spins.

-Flutz and lip jumps, in theory, must now get reduced GOEs. (I'll believe this when I see it; of course, a judge can still give a +1 instead of +2, so that will be a reduction in theory.)

-A "long preparation" (telegraphing) has been added to the GOE error sheet; this should result in a -1 GOE.

-The double axel has been increased from 3.3 to 3.5 points. (I guess this will hlep those pair teams who elect to do 2axel/2axel sequences instead of the 3toe/2toe combo.) And only 3 double axels will be allowed per program. (Sorry, Kevin van der Perren! :P )

-Doing 8 revs without any changes in variation or position is now a spin feature. So maybe we will see some more good, fast, classical spin positions?

-In a change foot spin combo (CCoSp), doing the change of edge counts twice if done on both feet and in different positions. (So no more back sit-change of edge-forward sit-change of edge spins--hurray!)

-In step sequences, loops (the figures, not the jumps) are considered a type of turn

-A spin variation that my coach used to make me do is now a spin feature: a clear jump with a spin landed on the same foot is a difficult variation (my coach made me do camel/back sit-jump up (like a loop jump)-back sit)

-The man's position in the death spiral has been elucidated:
"For at least one full revolution the man should stay in a low pivot position (this is when his buttocks are not higher than the knee of the pivot foot). A Level of a Death spiral without one full revolution in the described man’s position can not be more than 1."
I think a lot of the senior teams (not to mention nearly all the adult teams) are going to be adversely affected by this.

-I am glad the triple and quad twist lifts (ah, I liked it when they were simply called split twists) have increased values, which surmount any of the double twists. In the past, teams could do higher level 2 twists, and they would have similar values to the lower value 3 twists.

[vesperholly]

I am glad that there was mention of the "basic" spin positions, in addition to the "intermediate" positions. But the wording in some of the clarification here is confusing.
Oh good, did they actually call sit, camel and layback "basic" spins? Maybe now that troll on Wikipedia will stop editing the Figure Skating Spins entry to include illusion and attitude spins as "basic" positions. :frus:

[chowskates]

-Flutz and lip jumps, in theory, must now get reduced GOEs. (I'll believe this when I see it; of course, a judge can still give a +1 instead of +2, so that will be a reduction in theory.)


A judge told me recently, there are certain "errors" which *must* be given a negative GOE, no matter how good the rest of the jump is or how difficult the entry is, etc. The wrong-edge take-off is one of them.

[kateskate]

Does it really say the skating knee cannot be above the buttocks? That sounds @ss-backwards to me! :lol:

Me too! Does that mean this spin of mine would be a bad upright? (only worried about positions not revolutions for the moment!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybWPciJghVo

[flo]

The man's death spiral position is pretty difficult. I've only skated with a couple of men able to attain that for 1 full revolution. I also looked at the ladies position description, figuring out the "lower hip". That's not unreasonable.

[NoVa Sk8r]

A judge told me recently, there are certain "errors" which *must* be given a negative GOE, no matter how good the rest of the jump is or how difficult the entry is, etc. The wrong-edge take-off is one of them.I was being somewhat facetious.
The "must" has been in the rules for some time, but judges have not been giving negative GOEs when the situation requires it.

For example, in many combo jumps, a skater will mess up one part but still get positive GOEs. Huh? The "oh, well, the first part was *so* nice" does not validate any positive GOE when the rules state that, for most elements (jumps here), negative GOEs must be given when any phase is poorly executed.

[Mrs Redboots]

No, this is just a typical case of inaccurate wording in ISU communications. This level-raising feature actually just means you need: both inside edge and outside edge, both forward and backward, and at least one spiral on each foot. So if you have a RFI spiral, a RFO spiral and a LBI spiral, you've got it.What about a change-edge spiral? Done properly, they are a very fine thing indeed.

[saras]

What about a change-edge spiral? Done properly, they are a very fine thing indeed.

those are fine and count - just as two spirals not one ;)

[doubletoe]

those are fine and count - just as two spirals not one ;)

Exactly. You can do the RFI and RFO spirals separately, or as part of a single change-edge spiral, but either way it counts as two spiral positions, since a spiral position is considered different once there is a change of edge, change of free leg position, change of foot or change of direction.

[Joan]

Me too! Does that mean this spin of mine would be a bad upright? (only worried about positions not revolutions for the moment!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybWPciJghVo

I think your spin combo in the video is really nice!

[liz_on_ice]

[QUOTE=It's the spiral that Sasha Cohen (and Michelle Kwan) used to do - the one where they are skating backward (essentially on a flat, which would mean it wouldn't count as a spiral, so I guess next season's versions will have to be on an edge) and drop their upper body downward so that their nose nearly touches their skating leg, and their free leg is raised up straight behind them in a full split position. It was named after a skater in the early 1900s named Charlotte (I think she was German) who did that move in ice shows.[/QUOTE]

Is that the one that is also called a candlestick?

[doubletoe]

Me too! Does that mean this spin of mine would be a bad upright? (only worried about positions not revolutions for the moment!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybWPciJghVo

I was actually just making fun of their mistake. If the skating knee can't be ABOVE the buttocks, that means the sitspin is not allowed to be 90 degrees or lower! I'm sure they meant to say the skating knee can't be BELOW the buttocks (thus my reference to getting it @ss-backwards! ;)

I actually find it annoying that they define a 90-degree angle on a sitspin as "parallel" because that is not the case. Kate, your leg on both of your sitspins is at a 90-degree angle, but your thigh is not parallel to the ice because the shin of your skating leg is not perpindicular to the ice, it's like this: \ That is true of everyone's sitspin. I had an issue with the lack of clarity last year when they came up with this rule, knowing that most people (including technical specialists and judges) don't think about the fact that the thigh is not parallel to the ice until the leg bend is at about a 70-degree angle (much deeper than a 90-degree angle). For being "technical" rules, the lack of specificity is always surprisingly un-technical.

[kateskate]

I was actually just making fun of their mistake. If the skating knee can't be ABOVE the buttocks, that means the sitspin is not allowed to be 90 degrees or lower! I'm sure they meant to say the skating knee can't be BELOW the buttocks (thus my reference to getting it @ss-backwards! ;)

I actually find it annoying that they define a 90-degree angle on a sitspin as "parallel" because that is not the case. Kate, your leg on both of your sitspins is at a 90-degree angle, but your thigh is not parallel to the ice because the shin of your skating leg is not perpindicular to the ice, it's like this: \ That is true of everyone's sitspin. I had an issue with the lack of clarity last year when they came up with this rule, knowing that most people (including technical specialists and judges) don't think about the fact that the thigh is not parallel to the ice until the leg bend is at about a 70-degree angle (much deeper than a 90-degree angle). For being "technical" rules, the lack of specificity is always surprisingly un-technical.

Lol! I should read things more carefully! I didn't see their mistake! So do you think you need 70-degrees before they call it a sit spin? Would a 90-degree with thigh not parallel be ok?

[doubletoe]

Lol! I should read things more carefully! I didn't see their mistake! So do you think you need 70-degrees before they call it a sit spin? Would a 90-degree with thigh not parallel be ok?

I honestly think it's going to depend on which technical specialist you get. To be safe, just make sure that even if your sitspin is called as an upright spin, it won't put that spin in the same classification as any other spin you have in your program. For example, if you have a scratch spin in your program, don't do a plain sitspin or a sit-upright because if they count the sit position as an upright, you'll have two solo upright spins and the second one won't count. Similarly, if you have a forward sit-back upright ("combination spin with change of position") and you also have a change foot sitspin, they could both be counted as a change foot upright spin and the second one won't count.

[Hydroblade]

Odd that there seems to be no changes to dance at all since I was almost sure the would change what is required as a difficult position on twizzles but mabey that is soon to conme since this only cover freeskating and dance is so different in so many ways.

[jazzpants]

So I guess MY sit spin is not a sit spin according to the wording of the ISU requirements then??? :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw7ZQ3uEO8k

[chowskates]

So I guess MY sit spin is not a sit spin according to the wording of the ISU requirements then??? :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw7ZQ3uEO8k

*sigh* I've been trying to get my backsin to 90deg...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC5_L3yyCDs

but I suppose it still won't be a sit under the new definition! So impossible! :giveup:

[Isk8NYC]

Nice sit, although I didn't see the transition to the broken-leg sit spin. I must have blinked and tada! there it was. Very nice - I never did broken-leg sits well, so I'm envious.

A suggestion: Don't come up so high before the change foot. It's hard going from a broken-leg sit into a back sit, but think about pidgeon-toeing and c-pushing into the back sit side. (Keep your knees bent, too) You have to cross-check the arms on the foot change with a snap to the opposite side to keep up the momentum.

Can you do a regular sit-change-sit? Try it with the arms contra the free leg on both sides - it flows better during the changeover. You'll get it - just keep trying.

Jazz - While I'm being a busy-body, "present" the free foot in your sit spin more, meaning point and turn out the toe/turn in the heel of the free foot. Those heel-down positions always look like skaters are going to spike the ice and get hurt. An added bonus is that the turnout uses different muscles that allow you to st-r-e-t-ch the free leg further out and get the skating hip down lower.

[chowskates]

Nice sit, although I didn't see the transition to the broken-leg sit spin. I must have blinked and tada! there it was. Very nice - I never did broken-leg sits well, so I'm envious.

A suggestion: Don't come up so high before the change foot. It's hard going from a broken-leg sit into a back sit, but think about pidgeon-toeing and c-pushing into the back sit side. (Keep your knees bent, too) You have to cross-check the arms on the foot change with a snap to the opposite side to keep up the momentum.

Can you do a regular sit-change-sit? Try it with the arms contra the free leg on both sides - it flows better during the changeover. You'll get it - just keep trying.


Thanks. I never thought about the arms - they just go wherever they like to.

My transition to the backsit has always been high, whether or not I do the broken leg. My previous coach used to remark, every time I do a sit-change-sit, that my back sit looks so obviously higher than the forward sit. I threatened to make the foward sit higher so that they'd look the same! :lol:

But I think you're right, I need more snap into the backsit - a little more difficult to do coming from a broken-leg.

[jazzpants]

Jazz - While I'm being a busy-body, "present" the free foot in your sit spin more, meaning point and turn out the toe/turn in the heel of the free foot. Those heel-down positions always look like skaters are going to spike the ice and get hurt. An added bonus is that the turnout uses different muscles that allow you to st-r-e-t-ch the free leg further out and get the skating hip down lower.Yeah, my primary coach has been forever trying to get me to present the foot too! :roll:

Hmmm??? I didn't know about THAT bonus! I'll have to try it and see if that makes a difference... ;) (Thank you for the tip!!!) :mrgreen: