View Full Version : at what point do you say something?
I've mentioned a few times about girls who my daughter competes against frequently being much stronger skaters. The other day when she was skating, one of the girls told my daughter she's landing an axel. She's 8 turning 9 and in the highest level of our LTS program.
In this level the required elements are :
Three Jump
Salchow jump
Backward one foot spin
Forward One Foot Spin
Backward pivot
Backward Spiral
The other day a friend of mine who also skates said she witnessed this kid doing several clean loop-loop combinations.... this is a far cry from an axel, but I do suspect she has another jump under her belt which is higher than a loop jump!
My question is .... at what point should something be mentioned about this skater competing in the wrong level?
Would you say anything or would you stay completely out of it?
jskater49
05-03-2007, 07:14 PM
Never. Do not say anything. They won't appreciate it, they won't change what they are doing and it's not your place and you will only be seen in a negative light.
Honestly, there are some things in this sport you really need to accept that it comes with the game. Sandbagging exists. If you think it's bad now, it's only going to get worse. Also often what looks like sandbagging is more complicated. Skaters need to learn that they cannot control who they are skating against. They can only control their own skating. If that is going to bother you excessively you need to get out of it now.
j
SpaMama
05-03-2007, 07:21 PM
When my daughter landed her first axel, she was far from "having" it and competed at Freestyle 4 a month later - not near axel level. She is a natural jumper but had a lot more to learn on the footwork and spins required for a higher level. She didnt qualify for the higher level yet just because she had started landing an axel.
Spamama
Never. Do not say anything. They won't appreciate it, they won't change what they are doing and it's not your place and you will only be seen in a negative light.
Honestly, there are some things in this sport you really need to accept that it comes with the game. Sandbagging exists. If you think it's bad now, it's only going to get worse. Also often what looks like sandbagging is more complicated. Skaters need to learn that they cannot control who they are skating against. They can only control their own skating. If that is going to bother you excessively you need to get out of it now.
j
j, but is this the case? I mean, given the post with the letter from ISI Asia about sandbagging, is the reason nothing's being done because no-one says anything?
I don't feel a "sweep it under the carpet" attitude is the right one to have, in any sport. It's almost like the skating community trys to enforce bully-boy tactics by saying "like it or find another sport"... it should not be that way :(
When my daughter landed her first axel, she was far from "having" it and competed at Freestyle 4 a month later - not near axel level. She is a natural jumper but had a lot more to learn on the footwork and spins required for a higher level. She didnt qualify for the higher level yet just because she had started landing an axel.
Spamama
Spamama, I agree that just because you can land an axel doesn't mean she should be in the level where the axel is a required element. But clearly she can do well above what's required in the LTS program, and shouldn't that mean she should be encouraged to move up?
SpaMama
05-03-2007, 10:16 PM
She was in Freeskate 4 (private lessons, not LTS) in November, she is Pre Pre now. She first competed at Basic 4 in July, (she has never gotten first place by the way) she just has progressed so fast in some elements she had a natural and surprising talent for, that she could almost not keep up with learning everything else. Single jumps just came very easy for her, but not everything else. She has lost her axel several times, but she is caught up on everything else now. Its been a strange year!
I was just making the point that just because you can land an axel once in awhile doesnt mean you can do the other skills yet. I was always afraid that people would think we were sandbagging too. Considering she first put on skates 18 months ago, I have been told not to worry.
Spamama
Tennisany1
05-03-2007, 10:42 PM
I don't know about the Australian levels, but I would be very careful about believing anyone in LTS who says they can land an axel. I was at the rink the other day and one mother pointed out a child on the ice and told me she was landing an axel. In fact, had landed "a number" of clean ones the day before. Well, I suppose if clean is defined as 1/2 a rotation short and landing on two feet, then it was clean. My point is, some coaches encourage kids to work on axels because it makes the kids and parents happy - not because it is appropriate for their development stage in skating.
I know of a number of kids who don't set up a waltz jump properly, can't do a proper flip or lutz, but are working on an axel. Some of them have "landed" it in a harness - again not nearly fully rotated - so they run around saying they have an axel.
My advice (which I find hard to follow myself :) ) is to ignore it all and say "how nice" when people make these comments. It drives me crazy but every time I have said something I live to regret it. Make sure your child is with a coach who is following an appropriate development plan and let the other parents worry about their kids.
BuggieMom
05-03-2007, 11:19 PM
Never. Do not say anything. They won't appreciate it, they won't change what they are doing and it's not your place and you will only be seen in a negative light.
While this doesn't seem fair, and everything inside you rages against it, I must agree...
I have learned from experience that to tread upon anothers dream of how talented their child is will cost you, and your daughter, a lot. I have learned that the best thing I can do while at the rink is keep my mouth shut, both about my child and her accomplishments, and the abilities of others' kids. I don't feel a "sweep it under the carpet" attitude is the right one to have, in any sport. It's almost like the skating community trys to enforce bully-boy tactics by saying "like it or find another sport"... it should not be that way
ITA! It should not be that way, but trying to change something that others do not see as wrong will only wear you down and put you and your dd on the "outs"...and that is a lonely place to be. For the sake of my daughter, I have quit thinking I could make our rink a more friendly, fair place. Find another sport? It will be there also. No, it is NOT right, my dd's very first competition included someone at our rink that was sandbagging, and I felt terrible knowing that she didn't have a chance. But what made me feel better was that everyone else knew she was sandbagging also. Focus on you dd, and ONLY your dd. Smile and say "how nice", as Tennisany said, and change the subject. Your life at the rink will be much happier.
Someday, when this kid gets into a higher level, and starts getting beaten for the first time, there will be a rude awakening. Feel sorry for that child, that her parents and coach didn't feel confident enough in her abilities to actually let her "compete" for that gold.
twokidsskatemom
05-04-2007, 02:27 AM
I don't know about the Australian levels, but I would be very careful about believing anyone in LTS who says they can land an axel. I was at the rink the other day and one mother pointed out a child on the ice and told me she was landing an axel. In fact, had landed "a number" of clean ones the day before. Well, I suppose if clean is defined as 1/2 a rotation short and landing on two feet, then it was clean. My point is, some coaches encourage kids to work on axels because it makes the kids and parents happy - not because it is appropriate for their development stage in skating.
I know of a number of kids who don't set up a waltz jump properly, can't do a proper flip or lutz, but are working on an axel. Some of them have "landed" it in a harness - again not nearly fully rotated - so they run around saying they have an axel.
My advice (which I find hard to follow myself :) ) is to ignore it all and say "how nice" when people make these comments. It drives me crazy but every time I have said something I live to regret it. Make sure your child is with a coach who is following an appropriate development plan and let the other parents worry about their kids.
yep yep yep yep...
:)
She was in Freeskate 4 (private lessons, not LTS) in November, she is Pre Pre now. She first competed at Basic 4 in July, (she has never gotten first place by the way) she just has progressed so fast in some elements she had a natural and surprising talent for, that she could almost not keep up with learning everything else. Single jumps just came very easy for her, but not everything else. She has lost her axel several times, but she is caught up on everything else now. Its been a strange year!
I was just making the point that just because you can land an axel once in awhile doesnt mean you can do the other skills yet. I was always afraid that people would think we were sandbagging too. Considering she first put on skates 18 months ago, I have been told not to worry.
Spamama
Sorry Spamama, I should have re-read my post before adding the reply - by "she" I was actually talking about the girl I'm referring to in my original post, not your DD.
But in general, that's what I'm getting at is that someone who is clearly at a higher level than the LTS program, should be encouraged to take the next test and move into the 'real world' of skating ....
Hope that makes better sense?
It should not be that way, but trying to change something that others do not see as wrong will only wear you down and put you and your dd on the "outs"...and that is a lonely place to be.
Change has to start somewhere. If no-one starts it then it's destined to be like this forever. People agree it SHOULD NOT be like this in the sport. My daughter also does competitive gymnastics, and I have not seen sandbagging in that sport, so I find it hard to believe it exists everywhere and is the way of the world.
It took the voice of people speaking out before the government made Aboriginal Australians citizens :frus: If people had kept their mouths shut (as people keep advising me to do) then indigenous Australians & women for that matter, would still not be able to vote!
jskater49
05-04-2007, 03:43 AM
j, but is this the case? I mean, given the post with the letter from ISI Asia about sandbagging, is the reason nothing's being done because no-one says anything?
I don't feel a "sweep it under the carpet" attitude is the right one to have, in any sport. It's almost like the skating community trys to enforce bully-boy tactics by saying "like it or find another sport"... it should not be that way :(
Shrug. You asked. If you've already made up your mind, then have at it. Who are you going to talk to? The parents? You honestly think if you tell the parents their child is in the wrong level they are going to listen to you? Are you going to talk to the child's coach? The club? The USFSA? The USFSA is aware of sandbagging, they are not "bullying" anyone...they are trying to address the issue, but it is complicated. A lot of people cry sandbagging, when really, that's just not the case.
If you want to get involved on a policy level on club boards or the organization to try to address the problem, I say go for it. But complaining to and about a particular skater? That is not going to solve anything, and is only going to make you look bad. I have nothing against looking bad, but usually there should be some pay off for looking bad. But there is just no pay off here. "Saying something" will not accomplish your goal.
Just one opinion from someone who's been involved in this sport on many levels for many years. And who as a pastor for 20 years, knows a lot about people, and how to and how not to go about addressing problems in an organization.
j
Mrs Redboots
05-04-2007, 04:09 AM
I think there's a difference between saying to your coach "'Bout time young so-and-so moved up, don't you think?", or, indeed, saying to the other parent, "Isn't your skater doing well - I suppose she'll be moving up next season?" and making a formal complaint. After all, the reply to "I suppose she'll be moving up next season" might easily be, "Well, no, because her coach says she really must work on her basic skating before she moves up" or something of that sort.
My niece is a very talented dressage rider, and with her present horses, she's winning everything she enters. My brother said the other day that everybody else now groans when they see their lorry entering the showground! Dressage is even more expensive than skating, plus you have to qualify the horses, as well as the rider.... so my niece is entering the correct classes for her skill level, despite nearly always winning.
Who are you going to talk to? The parents? You honestly think if you tell the parents their child is in the wrong level they are going to listen to you? Are you going to talk to the child's coach? The club? The USFSA? The USFSA is aware of sandbagging, they are not "bullying" anyone...they are trying to address the issue, but it is complicated. A lot of people cry sandbagging, when really, that's just not the case.
j, I'd actually already discussed this with my daughter's coach prior to posting - I was just wondering what other people would do. "at what point" you would say something.
I wouldn't approach the parents - apart from the fact I rarely see them, and I think speaking to their coach would fall on deaf ears.
I think speaking to my daughter's coach was the right thing to do. She is going to check out her skating because she's one of the skate school testers. If something needs to be changed, I'm confident she will do something about it.
Maybe it's a change of the LTS program rules which says that once they have acquired all the skills required in that level they cannot compete at that level for more than a certain period of time or something like that. I know there have been instances where others at the LTS program have been booted out because it was found they'd previoiusly passed a higher level (preliminary for example) - even though they were only back in LTS to update and refresh their skills.
I'm in Australia, so we don't have USFSA - we have ISA and state associations.
But I think it's something that needs to be looked at from a grass roots level. If people (regardless of age) are executing skills way above their current "level" it needs to be looked at. And saying nothing does nothing.
Clarice
05-04-2007, 07:38 AM
It might also help indirectly if your club had some way to honor skaters for tests passed. We list the tests passed for the year in our show program, and buy the test patches for the kids. We also link performance in the show to test level - you can't have a solo unless you've passed at least a certain test, and your test level determines how long your number is allowed to be. These are the regular USFSA tests - kids in the Basic Skills program can only be in Basic Skills group numbers. If they want better parts in the show, they need to join the club and start testing there. I agree with others that for you to say anything is risky. Talking to your child's coach is okay, but have her handle it from this point. As long as your skater is competing against the skater who is sandbagging, there's no way you can say anything without it sounding like sour grapes on your part.
jskater49
05-04-2007, 07:53 AM
We also link performance in the show to test level - you can't have a solo unless you've passed at least a certain test, and your test level determines how long your number is allowed to be. These are the regular USFSA tests - kids in the Basic Skills program can only be in Basic Skills group numbers. If they want better parts in the show, they need to join the club and start testing there.
I'm thinking of suggesting this at our club. Right now, to get a solo you just have to buy so much club ice hours. And do so much volunteer work. Yea so really you can essentially buy your kid a solo. Which I did this year...but at least she's an intermediate skater! The show is a big production and costs a lot of money and loses money and I understand the only way to get the money is to use that as an incentive, but I think in ADDITION to shelling out the bucks, you should pass a minimum test -- so that kids are encouraged to test up, so that they can feel like having a solo means more than your mom was able to scrape up the money to buy you the ice time and so that you don't have this beautiful produced show and pre-pre- kids doing solos. No offense to pre-pre parents, I was one once but I would not have allowed her to do a solo in a show like this back then. The way it is now, shoot, if I bought enough ice time I could do a solo and trust me - nobody wants to see that!
j
Mainemom
05-04-2007, 08:28 AM
We have one skater that our girls compete against who is most definitely a sandbagger and everyone knows it. So now when they see they are in a flight with her, they know the most they can hope for is a silver and if they get it to them its as good as gold! It's so sad and I honestly think she doesn't enjoy competing as much as the rest of the girls do, as she never talks to or interacts with anyone other than her mother and her coach. She carries her medals around with her on her skate bag, for crying out loud! For a competition she comes in, competes, gets her medals and leaves. What fun is that? Medals aren't everything.
Isk8NYC
05-04-2007, 08:43 AM
It might also help indirectly if your club had some way to honor skaters for tests passed. We list the tests passed for the year in our show program, and buy the test patches for the kids.That's a really nice idea - do you include tests passed at other clubs, or just at your own club's test sessions? I'm thinking about the logistics of keeping track accurately. In my area, oversights are not allowed - it's considered a major slight if a name is left out because the volunteer didn't know about a test passed six states away. :roll:
AW1: I would NOT say anything to anyone. It just fuels the bleacher fires. (Even the coaches are part of that network.) They'll start clucking about what a bad sport you are and how you think... you get the picture.
I agree that skaters should have to move up if they're dominating a level because of sandbagging. Keeping track, year-to-year, for each competition is a burden for our comp dir's because there are so many skaters/levels. It would have to be done on the honor policy in our area, and you're dealing with people who'd rather see their kids get gold than be challenged. Just MHO.
Even if there's a sticking point keeping the skater from moving up a test level, let's say the Axel, it forces the skater to learn something about determination. "I WILL get this jump. I need this jump to pass the test. I need to pass the test in order to compete." If that's the only element holding them back, practicing a perfect lower-level routine over and over isn't going to help them master the axel. They're not goal-setting, they're just coasting along at the same level.
She carries her medals around with her on her skate bag, for crying out loud! Guilty! I used to bring a stuffed penguin (who had his own skates and ID badge) that "wore" all my medals at competitions. It was a gift from a friend and everyone used to rub the penguin's belly for good luck before they skated. We were adults, btw. LOL I found him in the attic a few weeks ago, sans medals. (They've been put away.)
Clarice
05-04-2007, 09:11 AM
That's a really nice idea - do you include tests passed at other clubs, or just at your own club's test sessions? I'm thinking about the logistics of keeping track accurately. In my area, oversights are not allowed - it's considered a major slight if a name is left out because the volunteer didn't know about a test passed six states away. :roll:
Yes, we include all tests, whether they were passed at home or not. The Test Chair prepares the list, so it's accurate - all tests get reported to her anyway. Also, certain club officers (I'm one) have access to a club roster listing all tests (both pass and retry) on the Members Only section of the US Figure Skating web site. So I can check the test status of any club member when we're putting the show together, and just double check the most recent tests passed with the Test Chair in case they haven't been listed on the web site yet. We also honor those who have passed the highest test in their discipline by listing their name, the test, and the date passed on a placque that's kept in the trophy case.
jskater49
05-04-2007, 09:11 AM
It might help if the USFSA freestyle tests were a little closer to what is expected at a competition level. I was really naive when I passed adult pre-bronze, I thought that meant I would be competing against other people doing what I could do - a waltz jump, and a half flip and a half lutz....hahaha. When I competed at adult mids - most of the competitors in the no-test event would have beat me!
Nowadays...most coaches will not let kids test pre-pre until they have an axel. When my daughter passed pre-pre-- she couldn't even do a sit spin and she got beat up that first year by girls who had been in pre-pre for years....But she wanted to do a lutz which was not allowed in most beginning events, and she was proud that she could pass the test and wanted to test and her coach asked her - "Do you want to move up and progress in the sport or do you want to collect medals" .
I think sandbagging is really it's own punishment because it keeps you from progressing.
OTOH, you cannot be real quick to judge. I was really annoyed by all the sandbagging at pre-pre and blamed a lot of my daughter's last place finishes on that...but now looking back at the videos, it wasn't all sandbaggers that beat her. She just wasn't that good but I couldn't see it at the time ;)
Now there is a girl she knows who she competes against a lot at intermediate. Lots of girls call this girl a sandbagger. She could easily pass novice and at local competitions her level of skating is so much better than everyone else, once she had the flu and fell on almost every jump and she still won. Sandbagger? Time to move up? Well at regionals she skated her best and just missed going to nationals. Can you blame her for wanting to try to get to Nationals? I don't. And obviously she's not a sandbagger if she didn't make it in the top 4. She's just a lot better than her local competition, but not that great against against a wider, bigger field. In fact without her, the others might have an unrealistic idea of what intermediate skating looks like!
Finally when my daughter was at open juv, she started placing well - she was often the only one with a double lutz (that's not the case anymore). Both her coach and I encouraged her to just stay there for awhile--that she had spent enough time getting beat up and she deserved to enjoy placing well. Was she sandbagging? I don't think so, but probably all the girls who didn't have double lutzes thought so. She ended up getting tired of being open juv and tested up sooner than her coach would have liked anyway.
And if they did make the freestyle tests harder, people who don't compete, but just want to test and move up would complain.
j
cathrl
05-04-2007, 09:55 AM
ITA, jskater49 - I remember when my daughter first competed and it's funny how at the time all the beginner class skaters looked brilliant, but now they're not. Though my daughter's definitely competed against a fair few sandbaggers. They've changed the rules now to limit the jumps you can do at each level still more, but when she went into level 2 (with a toeloop and a salchow, the jumps required for the test) everyone else had all the jumps up to the axel, and most had the axel too.
I think the show thing, and having what people look at be your test level rather than what you say you can do, is a good way to go - that's how our rink used to do it, back when we had a Christmas show with group numbers for different levels. If you didn't have any tests, you were in the group with the LTS kids, and if you were real lucky the number would include a spiral 5 yards long.
Personally, my daughter isn't the world's most natural performer, her coordination is poor at best, and her coach and I decided when she was doing figure that she was better off testing up and feeling good about being in a higher level, than staying down and getting beaten by the kids who were naturals anyway.
Sessy
05-04-2007, 10:37 AM
When I competed in ballroom dancing, whenever a pair of dancers would take like, both in Latin and in Ballroom the first medals in one competition or get first medals in several competitions in a row, everybody would talk behind their back that it was high time they moved up. They rarely did. Some people would rather win a medal on a very low level than nothing on a high level.
peanutskates
05-04-2007, 11:50 AM
But in general, that's what I'm getting at is that someone who is clearly at a higher level than the LTS program, should be encouraged to take the next test and move into the 'real world' of skating ....
hmm I see what you mean. I have just had this transition... boy is it a shock to enter the real world! however, I just had my last LTS lesson yesterday and I realised I'd rather be falling on my bum with my salchow and barely spinning on my spins whilst watching all these amazing skaters than going slowly round the bend doing bunny hops which I can do already.
I wouldn't win any medals for my current level of skating (UK silver) but it gives me more satisfaction than even 10 medals for bunny hops and cross rolls would.
SynchroSk8r114
05-05-2007, 12:21 PM
I've seen this many times, both as a skater myself and a coach. It's so common anymore to see skaters "sandbagged" nowadays, and I agree with others that holding a skater back is unfair, both to the skater and his/her competitiors.There are several skaters I know of that compete Preliminary, but who I have seen land a double lutz consistently. Really, what can you do anyway? I wouldn't say anything, as frustrating as it may be. Unfortunately, this happens in the "real world" of skating...:(
This is what my daughter said to me in the car on the way home from a competition tonight "no matter what I do mum, it's just not good enough! even when I'm trying my hardest".
This could have been the make or break defining moment for my daughter because she puts in so much hard work and feels like she doesn't get recognised for it.
I know that with her gymnastics, she puts in alot of hard work there too, but she always seems to feel like she's been rewarded for it no matter what happens...
BuggieMom
05-07-2007, 07:24 AM
Are there any competitions you can go to where these other girls will NOT be?
This is a little off topic, but it comes back around at the end, stay with me...We don't have any really bad sandbagging right now at our rink, but the level of unhealthy competitiveness is pretty high. The cattiness skyrockets right before a competition, and it gets really old. My daughter comes home wondering why girls that used to like her before are giving her the meanest looks and being really ugly to her. It makes me dread the weeks before any competition. We recently went to a competition that no one else from our rink went to. There was no stress, no worrying about which rinkmates she was competing against, no dirty looks. It was such a stress free environment, that I can't wait to do it again. Maybe you can find a competition like that, where you can go and your dd can compete against others that she might have a chance against, for a change. That's not to say there won't be some girls sandbagging there, but at least you won't know that ahead of time.
SynchroSk8r114
05-07-2007, 07:33 AM
AW1 - I just watched the video of your daughter skating, and I think she's doing wonderfully for her age. She has a great presence on the ice and seems like she enjoys performing. :)
Perhaps your daughter can work on learning dance or beginning MIF...or even synchro? Is every kid going to land a double axel? Probably not. But he or she can work on passing all their dances or MIF, make a synchro team (if that's ever a possibility), and just be happy.
BuggieMom - I experienced the same feelings that your daughter has prior to competitions. At one competition, my "best" skating friend and her parents were planning to take us all out to dinner after our event...until, that is, I beat her daughter. Suddenly, they left without saying anything to us and our friendship was never the same. It's sad, but it's skating. It's just disheartening to see the cut throat competitiveness at lower levels, especially from parents who think they're child is going to the Olympics.
blue111moon
05-07-2007, 07:36 AM
If your 8-year-old is already at the point where she finds satisfaction in skating through medals, then yes, I think she'd be happier in gymnastics.
That said, the New England Inter Club Council has what's called the "Gold Medal Rule" for its competitions: once you win a Gold Medal in a free skating event that has more than three skaters in it, you cannot enter another NEICC competition at that level - you MUST test up and compete at the next highest level. This is to prevent the same people from winning gold medals at every competition and encourage people to test. It doesn't really have a lot of impact since there are only three or four NEICC compeitions a year and there are many other non-qualifying competitions that skaters can enter, but it might be something for other federations to consider.
Are there any competitions you can go to where these other girls will NOT be?
Unfortunately not really. Being in Australia, and living in a tropical climate, ice skating is not really the most popular sport, and doesn't warrant that many competitions.
AW1 - I just watched the video of your daughter skating, and I think she's doing wonderfully for her age. She has a great presence on the ice and seems like she enjoys performing. :)
Thank you.
It's just disheartening to see the cut throat competitiveness at lower levels, especially from parents who think they're child is going to the Olympics
I agree. The skating community here is so small anyway that I just think it's really sad. I have no grand illusions of greatness for her, but I do want for her to enjoy her skating.
If your 8-year-old is already at the point where she finds satisfaction in skating through medals, then yes, I think she'd be happier in gymnastics.
Actually she's only 5, (almost 6)! And yes she enjoys getting medals BUT she also loves skating. It's hard when even an under 6 feels they are being held back no matter how hard they try.
Skittl1321
05-08-2007, 07:57 AM
That said, the New England Inter Club Council has what's called the "Gold Medal Rule" for its competitions: once you win a Gold Medal in a free skating event that has more than three skaters in it, you cannot enter another NEICC competition at that level - you MUST test up and compete at the next highest level. This is to prevent the same people from winning gold medals at every competition and encourage people to test. It doesn't really have a lot of impact since there are only three or four NEICC compeitions a year and there are many other non-qualifying competitions that skaters can enter, but it might be something for other federations to consider.
WOW. This seems harsh. After ONE gold medal? Are skaters who have mastery of their current level, but unable to pass the next test just forced out of skating?
jskater49
05-08-2007, 08:12 AM
WOW. This seems harsh. After ONE gold medal? Are skaters who have mastery of their current level, but unable to pass the next test just forced out of skating?
I agree. just because you can beat three skaters in one particular comp, in no way doe that mean you are ready to move up. That's the problem with trying to make hard and fast rules to deal with sandbagging...it's just not that easy to define. I don't think that is a smart solution at all.
j
Clarice
05-08-2007, 08:42 AM
If I'm recalling correctly, we used to have the same rule in Iowa when we had the Iowa Championships. (This was not the same as the State Games -the Iowa Council that sponsored it has been inactive for a few years now.) It ONLY applied to that competition. If you won a freeskate event at a level (i.e., you were the state champion at that level), you couldn't compete at that level again. I don't think it applied to adults, and it may have only applied to the lower levels - I can't remember. If a skater couldn't/didn't want to test up, they didn't have to - they just wouldn't be able to enter a freeskating event at the Iowa Championships until they did. I think they could still have done an artistic, though, and certainly could have entered any other competition they wanted. At any rate, I don't remember it ever being a problem.
blue111moon
05-08-2007, 08:48 AM
NEICC competitions are Introductory events - designed to fit into the competition structure as a transition between Basic Skills competitions and the big Opens. There are only four to six NEICC competitions a year, whereas there are Basic Sills comps springing up everywhere and in New England there is at least one Open almost every month of the year. So winning one gold medal in an NEICC competition doesn't shut a skater out of ever competing at that that level again; the skater just can't do another NEICC competition at that level. It's more of a sign that the skater is ready to take on larger fields in the Opens. The rule is there to give as many skaters as possible a chance to win.
Anyway, the Gold Medal Rule has been in effect for decades and nobody here thinks it's unfair. In fact the addition of the "more than three skaters in the field" part was a relativcely recent addition, created specifically to exclude the lower-attended events like boys and adults from being shut out of chances to compete.
As for sandbagging, again given the multitude of competitions we have here, it gets pretty obvious who's being held back - when you see the same skater win six or eight times in Pre-Juv with elements that could beat most of the skaters in Novice, then it's not unheard of for people (including judges) to suggest to the skater's coach that it might be time to test up.
jskater49
05-08-2007, 09:13 AM
As for sandbagging, again given the multitude of competitions we have here, it gets pretty obvious who's being held back - when you see the same skater win six or eight times in Pre-Juv with elements that could beat most of the skaters in Novice, then it's not unheard of for people (including judges) to suggest to the skater's coach that it might be time to test up.
I think a judge is probably the most appropriate person to make that suggestion.
j
I think a judge is probably the most appropriate person to make that suggestion.
j
I heard from another person who was at the award presentations that one of the judges (who was presenting trophies) said to the girl who I was referring to in my original post "I hope you've done your preliminary test" to which she replied she had! Now that's just blatant sandbagging in my opinion! She had the opportunity to move her division as one other young guy who was supposed to be in the same division passed his preliminary only in the past week or so, and they changed him to preliminary division so there would have been no hassle changing her.
Tennisany1
05-08-2007, 11:53 PM
I've thought about this thread a bit, and now that I've seen your daughter's latest video I have a suggestion. First, she did a lovely job of her program. I agree with whoever said she certainly seems to enjoy performing.
Now for the suggestion. The next time she competes, try to video tape the warm up group she is in. I found that it very helpful for my daughter to see herself skating with the other kids in her level in the background. It also allows you to take a second look at what other kids are doing.
At my dd's first competition she skated her program perfectly without one hitch or bobble. She was thrilled. She placed 7th. She was fine at first, and then that night she was upset. When I asked why she said she didn't understand why she came 7th when she skated her program so well. We talked about what she did, and then we looked at the video of the warm up and looked at some of the elements the other kids were warming up. Loop / loop out of crossovers versus her single loop out of a three turn. Faster camel sits with more rotations on the camel. We also looked at the things she did the best or close to the best - her lovely spiral and musicallity. What she learned was that she should be proud of what she did, but that she need to keep working to increase both her difficulty and her basics. The next day on the ice I saw her talking to her coach. Sure enough, they started working on a loop out of crossovers! She now also spends more time on her basic stroking, posture and technique than she did before.
My point is, your daughter obviously enjoys skating and performing. She does a lovely job of her program; however, I suspect there are many other kids who are legitimately in her level who have stronger basic skating and harder elements. They are also probably 2 or 3 years older! So she need to be proud of herself for just going out there and look to improve her performance each time. She will continue to progress and enjoy the sport if she focuses more on improvement and less on placement.
Now for the suggestion. The next time she competes, try to video tape the warm up group she is in. I found that it very helpful for my daughter to see herself skating with the other kids in her level in the background. It also allows you to take a second look at what other kids are doing.
Unfortunately no, you're not allowed to video or photograph someone else's child unless you have permission from their parents. So we wouldn't be able to do that. But it's a good suggestion.
She does a lovely job of her program; however, I suspect there are many other kids who are legitimately in her level who have stronger basic skating and harder elements. They are also probably 2 or 3 years older!
She is tiny, her legs don't carry her as far or as fast in 1:30 as a bigger child - that's just how it is. And yes they are usually 2-3 yrs older.
I suppose for me, what I don't understand about the whole situation is how they are marked in these contests because, like for example, as you would have seen in her program, Lilly's backspin is non-existent.
However, as I mentioned in the original post, there's only 6 elements required in this level.
If these girls are coming and competing with programs that string together harder moves/jumps which are higher than what's required in that level, why are they continued to be allowed to compete at that level. They should be marked on those 6 elements only shouldn't they?
That's what I don't get. I mean, the judges should be disregarding the elements which are not required - they are just there to fluff out the program right?
TreSk8sAZ
05-09-2007, 02:28 AM
However, as I mentioned in the original post, there's only 6 elements required in this level.
If these girls are coming and competing with programs that string together harder moves/jumps which are higher than what's required in that level, why are they continued to be allowed to compete at that level. They should be marked on those 6 elements only shouldn't they?
Actually, no. Not unless the entry specifically says "elements from higher levels will not be marked" or "elements from higher levels are not allowed." If there is no disclaimer such as this (which is seen often in our entries here) then the girls and their coaches have the right to put in anything they wish. Without that disclaimer, no one would know they were restricted to only those 6 elements, especially if coming from another state/province/area.
Our local competitions also have a rule, like someone said, that if you win a freeskate, you MUST move to the next level the next year, regardless of test. Most of the girls who win are ready to move up, so it's not a problem. That might be a suggestion.
I should note, in our area this isn't the same for dance. There is one girl that competed against me in Cha-Cha four years ago. She recently competed against one of my students in the same dance again this year. She will usually skate 3-4 levels of dance, usually bronze - Pre-silver or silver. My youngers have made it a goal to take at least one first place ordinal from her on the lower dances. If they win, even better. But if they get just one first place from the judges, it keeps the fun and competition in it for them (And hey, whatever I can do to get them to work on their dances willingly!)
Actually, no. Not unless the entry specifically says "elements from higher levels will not be marked" or "elements from higher levels are not allowed." If there is no disclaimer such as this (which is seen often in our entries here) then the girls and their coaches have the right to put in anything they wish. Without that disclaimer, no one would know they were restricted to only those 6 elements, especially if coming from another state/province/area.
From the competition announcement and rules "Competitors may not use extra elements, except for elements from Stroking or lower levels.
Only the required elements will be marked."
stardust skies
05-09-2007, 04:30 AM
Coming out of lurking for a few minutes to say this, because I hope you will consider it: you are making WAY too big a deal over this. I watched the video- yes, she is very cute, but she's doing two half jumps and a very incorrect salchow (zero checking whatsoever, will probably cause problems in the future so you might want to mention it to her coach because the more she does it the more it will be engrained in her muscle memory and having done the same thing as a little kid I can tell you it takes YEARS to fix it afterwards). She's 5 so obviously her performance is very good for her age, and I doubt many (if any) of the other little kids put out better performances. But...she's doing half and single jumps! Where she places is NOT a big deal at this level! Competitions for these levels are meant to be for fun, for experience, and for self esteem. Placement doesn't even matter. It isn't like she was unfairly denied a spot at the Olympics so you must now lobby such and such avenue to rectify the injustice. She went to a local competition, put on a pretty dress, skated to a fun number, and at that age and level that should honestly be more than enough. You need to teach her to have fun and not care whether or not a medal is involved at this stage. Otherwise she will come to hate competing.
Honestly, I think it's great that you care about your kid's results that much however if she sits in the car and says "mom, I will never win no matter how hard I work", the type of thinking you are displaying on this board can't possibly be conducive to giving your daughter the answer that would help her build self-esteem and not measure her worth compared to other people. This is a judged sport- always subjective, and very often unfair. She could be the best and never win a single competition. Skating is not about winning, it's about doing your best, and hoping you're rewarded. If you base your enjoyement of the sport on how fairly you are placed, you will come to LOATHE it. This is soooooooo far from the end of situations like these. They happen all the time, and they happen at levels where the outcomes decide entire careers. That is how it goes. Your job as a parent is not to go and judge at what level other skaters should be competing. You are honestly doing the one thing that skaters are taught never to do: you're paying attention to the competition. You can't do that, but more importantly, you cannot teach your daughter to do that. If your daughter ends up reasoning like you are on this thread, she will be miserable, she will come to hate this sport, and she will quit. There is absolutely no way to survive in this sport with the outlook you have. None. This is a judged sport, you cannot spend any amount of time dwelling on how unfair a placement is, and you absolutely can never waste your time dwelling on other skaters. In the end, everybody ends up in Senior anyway, and at that point people are of very different ages and skill levels. Look at Senior Worlds: you've got Mao Asada doing triple axels, Yu Na Kim doing 3/3's as if she could do them in her sleep, and the American girls barely pulling off 3/2's. Of course, the girls who are doing the triple axels and 3/3's are going to win. But do you hear those who can't do them say "well, I don't even know why I'm competing since I can't win without those jumps, they shouldn't be allowed to compete against me, it's so unfair"? No. The other girls just try their best, and hope the girls who are at a clear advantage aren't at THEIR best, and the rest is up to chance. Same thing at lower levels, sandbagging or not. Honestly, you could have a girl who's 3 levels higher than your daughter have a bad night and your daughter will still beat her. Nothing is ever for certain in skating, and it's really not all about skating levels. Plus, if that many of the other girls are doing higher level elements then perhaps *their* parents feel that your daughter should be competing in the level below. Wouldn't be any more offensive than you wanting their daughters to move up just because they happen to keep winning everything. So, you'd rather these girls who are winning against your daughter now, be in your daughter's situation? Perhaps if they moved up, they would be competing against girls who are ALSO sandbagging and who will also win everytime, and then those girls who you forced to move up have no chance of winning either. It's a vicious circle, and I don't think it's fair to wish your problem on someone else as a kind of a solution. Instead of trying to get everyone to stop sandbagging so that your daughter has a chance, keeping her in a level below for an extra year would be a much more successful way to let her "have a chance" against her peers...since, as you say...EVERYONE sandbags. So effectively if you sandbag too then she'll be competing against girls of her own level and you're really not sandbagging at all.
You will not change this sport. You ask why? Because people know how to get through it- don't worry about what other people are doing, mind your OWN business, do YOUR best, and hope you get rewarded for it. Trust me, if you start commenting on who is sandbagging and who should move up...it doesn't even matter who you comment to...your daughter is going to pay. The second you open your mouth with opinions on rival skaters, and your daughter is going to feel it in placement and treatment at the rink.
If you really care about whether or not your daughter enjoys skating, then you will find a way to stop feeling the way you do about the "great injustice" placed upon your 5 year old beginning skater, and you will let her just SKATE. If she is discouraged because she skated better than others and still lost, it is a perfect opportunity for you to teach her about self esteem and that the only thing that matters is doing YOUR best, and that only you can decide whether or not it was good enough. It's a golden opportunity you have to teach her a lesson far more important than a stupid entry-level medal that will not matter in a few years, so I'd count this as a blessing. She has plenty of time to medal, but you aren't going to raise the type of skater capable of doing so if you react the way you are. Make lemonade out of those lemons and teach her a little bit about how unfair the world is and how to navigate through it and how to feel like a winner even if you don't have the gold hanging around your neck. In this sport and in life, she is toast without this perspective.
I hope you will find a way to let this go and look at the bigger picture. Best of luck to you, your daughter, and anyone else going through this situation...which is...basically anyone who's ever competed.
stardust skies
05-09-2007, 04:49 AM
From the competition announcement and rules "Competitors may not use extra elements, except for elements from Stroking or lower levels.
Only the required elements will be marked."
Yes, but in general, someone who is more advanced has better stroking, and is probably performing the elements that ARE being judged, better. That being said, just because this would be the case, does not necessarily mean these people are ready to be competitive at the next level, because in that level there will ALSO be people who can do more advanced elements and are performing the required elements better. The only key to improving your placement is to improve your skating. You're lucky that you're only judged on listed elements, because in the U.S., most competitions are a free-for-all when a kid who's just tested their axel for the first time are actually doing DOUBLE axels in competition at their level.
Instead of expecting the entire skating world to change its ways and come around to your way of thinking, all you can do is come around to theirs, and let your daughter compete in the level below until she also can do harder elements and thus performs the ones being judged well enough to rival the other girls. Plain and simple. If you do not want to do this, that's fine also, but she'll most likely always lose and she will have to come to terms with that. Everyone is capable of doing MUCH harder elements when they compete in a certain level, whether these harder elements are allowed in the competition or not. It's how the sport works.
Ok, I think I'm done rambling on this thread. I just (as you gathered...) feel pretty strongly about all of this. :giveup:
Competitions for these levels are meant to be for fun, for experience, and for self esteem. Placement doesn't even matter.
Placement at these levels does matter to kids actually, if you ask my daughter I'm sure she'd tell you. It's the type of kid she is. I couldn't care if she didn't win a brass razoo, I'm just happy for her to go and have fun (as I stated earlier).
If coming last does not hurt ones self esteem, then what IS it doing for them? It bothers me so much, because it bothers her. And no matter how many times her coach and I have told her it's not about the medals, she just doesn't understand how trying your best can result in always being last.
Instead of trying to get everyone to stop sandbagging so that your daughter has a chance, keeping her in a level below for an extra year would be a much more successful way to let her "have a chance" against her peers...since, as you say...EVERYONE sandbags.
Once you pass a test here you cannot go back a level. BTW, I never said EVERYONE sandbags, if you had read my postings - actually everyone here keeps telling me it's the way of the skating world and effictively I have to like it or lump it!
We have a much smaller skating community here in Australia, so while in the US it might be the way of the world, I don't see why it can't be rectified here. I'm not expecting my daughter to reach the heights of Australian representation, because frankly Australian Skaters are not competitive internationally.
The thing is, they have a hard time getting kids to stay in figure skating AT ALL past learn to skate here, and this is another one of the things putting them off staying with the sport ... surely it couldn't be a bad thing, to stamp it out and therefore encourage other 'inbetween' skaters to make the transition into the sport?
But I would like for her to go out there and have a fair chance against anyone else who she skates against. Is that so wrong?
Anyone would think I'm asking these girls to cut off their arms and legs by some of the responses I'm getting.
Yes stardust skies, I am passionate too, as you can probably tell. :roll:
blue111moon
05-09-2007, 08:12 AM
"No matter how good you are, and how hard you try, there will always be someone better." and "Sometimes even when you do your absolute best, other people may be better."
That's my response to the kids I skate with who gripe about not winning. And as someone who consistently comes in last or nearly last, I know that not winning isn't The Worst Thing in The World. I don't skate for the medals, I skate for fun. It's way too expensive to do otherwise. :)
Since your daughter's only five, then it's up to you as her parent to decide where winning ranks on the scale of "Why Skate?" reasons. I haven't watched the videos, but it's entirely possible that as much as she enjoys skating and performing, your daughter just isn't good at it. Maybe she will be if she sticks with it, maybe she won't. Not every kid who starts skating has the body type and the temperment and the cordination to be great no matter how hard they work. If she - and you - can skate because it's fun and a challenge and is good exercize, then fine, keep going. But it the emphasis is going to be on competiting and collecting medals and being The Best, then I'm thinking that skating - and competing - isn't the right fit for either of you.
jskater49
05-09-2007, 08:29 AM
You will not change this sport. You ask why? Because people know how to get through it- don't worry about what other people are doing, mind your OWN business, do YOUR best, and hope you get rewarded for it. Trust me, if you start commenting on who is sandbagging and who should move up...it doesn't even matter who you comment to...your daughter is going to pay. The second you open your mouth with opinions on rival skaters, and your daughter is going to feel it in placement and treatment at the rink.
If you really care about whether or not your daughter enjoys skating, then you will find a way to stop feeling the way you do about the "great injustice" placed upon your 5 year old beginning skater, and you will let her just SKATE. If she is discouraged because she skated better than others and still lost, it is a perfect opportunity for you to teach her about self esteem and that the only thing that matters is doing YOUR best, and that only you can decide whether or not it was good enough. It's a golden opportunity you have to teach her a lesson far more important than a stupid entry-level medal that will not matter in a few years, so I'd count this as a blessing. She has plenty of time to medal, but you aren't going to raise the type of skater capable of doing so if you react the way you are. Make lemonade out of those lemons and teach her a little bit about how unfair the world is and how to navigate through it and how to feel like a winner even if you don't have the gold hanging around your neck. In this sport and in life, she is toast without this perspective.
I hope you will find a way to let this go and look at the bigger picture. Best of luck to you, your daughter, and anyone else going through this situation...which is...basically anyone who's ever competed.
Amen amen amen. This is what I've been trying to say. These is what other people who have been in this sport longer than you are trying to tell you. I understand that's not what you want to hear or accept but I can promise that if you do not come to terms with this aspect of skating, even if you could kick up or kick out every single sandbagger, you will not enjoy this sport. And that's the last thing I have to say on this subject, because you'll either believe some of this or you won't.
j
Mrs Redboots
05-09-2007, 08:53 AM
Placement at these levels does matter to kids actually, if you ask my daughter I'm sure she'd tell you. It's the type of kid she is. I couldn't care if she didn't win a brass razoo, I'm just happy for her to go and have fun (as I stated earlier).
In which case, I'm afraid it sounds as though she is not yet mature enough to be competing. She probably is still too young to grasp the concept that she can't control what the judges do, and she can't control what the other skaters do; all she can do is to go out there, skate her best, and have enormous fun, whether she places first, last, or somewhere in between.
If she can't cope with that idea, maybe she shouldn't compete for a year or so, until she develops the maturity to do so and to realise that, no matter where she places, as long as she has tried her hardest, you couldn't be more proud of her, and nor could her coach!
BuggieMom
05-09-2007, 09:27 AM
Speaking gently here...
I understand AW1's frustration. I have felt it also. I have thought the exact same things at one point or another, and been given the same advice. I agree that, to these kids, placement DOES matter, no matter how much we tell them it doesn't. Deep down inside, every child goes into a competition wanting to medal. My dd goes to competitions because she wants to compete, hopes to place, and maybe even win, and I believe that is healthy, as long as it does not cross over into "she NEEDS to win". She can skate for the gold, as long as she can accept last place. To most of us adults, medals and placement matter to some extent, but they aren't ALL that matters. To us, there is more reward in competeing than that. We are adults. We know how to feel like that. Kids have to learn how to feel like that. And teaching them a healthy balance between "the thrill of victory, and the agony of defeat" begins at the first competition, and probably doesn't end until they quit. Kids, especially the young ones, WANT to do well, and it hurts to have a piece of paper tell you you didn't, whether you deserved it or not. As a parent, it hurts me also, especially if I feel something wasn't fair. It hurts to watch my dd learn to accept the defeats with the victories, but learn she is. I don't think AW1's dd, at 5 years old, is any different in her desires for a medal than other children. If she can push past that and continue competeing despite placing lower, then you know that she has found that balance. If it is really something she can't get past, then it may indeed serve her better to stop competeing for a while until she is older.
It is not wrong to want her to have a fair chance. But you need to remember that there are people out there that have a "win at all costs" mentality. And really, honestly, there is nothing you can do about that. No amount of talking to them will change their mind, it will only frustrate you and make you the least popular person at the rink
Trust me, if you start commenting on who is sandbagging and who should move up...it doesn't even matter who you comment to...your daughter is going to pay. The second you open your mouth with opinions on rival skaters, and your daughter is going to feel it in placement and treatment at the rink.
Sad as it is, I must agree with this. Grumble here, grumble at home, but do NOT grumble at the rink. Yes, you want it changed, no, it is not right, but it WILL happen, and I don't know how to make you feel better about that.
But it the emphasis is going to be on competiting and collecting medals and being The Best, then I'm thinking that skating - and competing - isn't the right fit for either of you.
Hang on...give her a chance! We ask these kids to get all dolled up like little adults, skate above their years, and forget that they are children with feelings. It is NORMAL for a 5yo to want to be The Best. They have to learn how to accept NOT being The Best. Give her the time to learn. Over time, with your help, she will learn that winning is not the only reward from skating. This IS a golden opportunity, as stardust said, for you to be able to help her. Try to look beyond your own feelings and focus on what you can do as her mom to help her learn.
I understand what you are feeling, it is the unfairness that makes you want to tear your hair out, not the fact that she is not winning. In time, you will be past these feelings, and will be able to accept that there are times when it is "not fair", you will chalk it up, and go on to the next competiton. And, I suspect, so will you daughter.
Take a deep breath...it will all be OK...
My best to you and your dd
twokidsskatemom
05-09-2007, 11:47 AM
QUOTE]Speaking gently here...
I understand AW1's frustration. I have felt it also. I have thought the exact same things at one point or another, and been given the same advice. I agree that, to these kids, placement DOES matter, no matter how much we tell them it doesn't. Deep down inside, every child goes into a competition wanting to medal. My dd goes to competitions [QUOTE]
I hate hate hate when people make general comments. No, not to EVERY child placements matter.To ME, when we first started I was upset.Not my kids.ME.
Fast foward 4 years, I long ago stoped being upset about placements.My skaters have NEVER been upset.NEVER.Disappointed yes, upset no.They have placed first , last and in the middle.They have been taught since age 4 its not about placement, its about the experience.My daughter has even skated up a level just so she would be with another skater, knowing she wouldnt place as well..... and she placed first!!
I know as a parent, we all want our kids to do well and be happy. I know you want that for your daughter. But this is her journey and HER experience.You need to let go and just let her skate her best. Someday, some one will be watching her, saying maybe she should move up too:)
litigator
05-09-2007, 02:19 PM
we were at a Doug Leigh seminar recently where he gave parents the best talk in the world about what he says to athletes he trains....[very rough, intense off the cuff guy--I can see why he is so successful at what he does btw]
among other things one of the things he said was that if his athlete was standing and watching what someone else was doing, it took away valuable training time and mental ability of their own. He said if athletes spend five seconds every time they hit the ice thinking or looking at what someone else is doing....they lose at least one training day each month not to mention what it does to their subconscious. over a year, thats two weeks....etc etc....athletes need mental strength...more than the three d's even-determination, drive and dedication-b/c mental toughness is what is the glue that keeps the 3 d's together....[and something about the time it wastes for parents comparing]
he also said if you don't move them up they never learn. they don't learn what its like to push yourself...to lose, to win, to be in the middle. they don't build character or hunger. which is why certain athletes not just in skating are winners, and others arent.
on a more personal note, our child at age 6 after just starting skating got fast-tracked through into private lessons straight out of canskate. won everything in sight till age 10. the people complained-yes, even to the judges, she was sandbagging-she wasn't-she was really in her category then some people-ie wellmeaning club parents were really worried when at age 12 she didn't have every double like suzy age 10 at the rink who had them....[suzy was bigger and stronger than ours]
but then Suzy started growing at at age 12 gained about 15 pds and three inches has not one double in two years despite all the work-just can't get it rotated anymore....and my daughter has them all despite her 4 ft 10 frame working on double axel-and is hoping to pass her pntest this summer. will mine win? nope probably place in the last two maybe three if lucky. some will say shes too old now....no matter how small she is....but she's going b/c according to her "she wants in the game, even if it means last-because its about the progress not the medal"....thats what we taught her to learn early on in the game-yes, some care about placement...some care about the journey....and maybe thats what makes some skaters different than others??? [I sure wouldn't want to do this sport-what other sport gives you four minutes to make your sometimes only impression????...on two blades that can either be your best friends or your worst [and most expensive]:lol: weapons....]
take care, and do keep in touch with her journey....
BuggieMom
05-09-2007, 02:20 PM
By "these kids" I was speaking more about the younger ones, the ones who haven't learned what else there is great about competitions.
And yes, that was a generalization, sorry. I go through these post about 50 times looking for anything that might be taken wrong, a better way to say something, and well, I can't catch them all!:giveup:
So, I amend my statement to:
I agree that, to the younger kids, placement CAN matter, no matter how much we tell them it doesn't. Deep down inside, many children go into a competition wanting to medal.
I think AW1 is disappointed about WHY she believes her dd placed poorly, not that she placed poorly at all. But AW1, you need to be careful that you do not give your dd the idea that any time she doesn't do well it is because someone is sandbagging. The way we, as parents, act about placement goes a long way to teaching them that placement, in the end, doesn't matter, whether someone is sandbagging or not.
My skaters have NEVER been upset.NEVER.Disappointed yes, upset no.They have placed first , last and in the middle.They have been taught since age 4 its not about placement, its about the experience.
Exactly! You have taught them! Just as I have taught my dd, and will continue to teach her. She still would like to win or medal when she competes, but she is not expecting to, and it is not the end of the world if she doesn't. She gets disappointed, but not upset. I feel that is normal. She has been first, middle and last, and has dealt with all of them with flying colors! She loves to compete, regardless of placement. But that was not something she was born with, it is something she has learned.
OK, I have read this about 50 times now, I think it's ok to post...:D...maybe...
stardust skies
05-09-2007, 03:49 PM
Placement at these levels does matter to kids actually, if you ask my daughter I'm sure she'd tell you. It's the type of kid she is. I couldn't care if she didn't win a brass razoo, I'm just happy for her to go and have fun (as I stated earlier).
If coming last does not hurt ones self esteem, then what IS it doing for them?
I completely understand where you're coming from and I think it's easy to tell from your posts that you are the type of mom who CARES about her daughter's feelings- I don't get the impression that *you* care whether or not she medals, you just don't want her to be unhappy. Which is so great. The point I was trying to make though is that at large, skating can be a very emotionally difficult sport to be a part of. If, as a 5 year old, she already cares and is already discouraged about her placements, I'm just saying it might not be the best idea for her to be competing, at least right now. Because, exactly...if all it's going to do is crush her self-esteem...then what's the point? At this level, building self-confidence and having fun is the point. If neither are happening, I think the best idea might be to focus more on testing and try to make testing into an event, and forego competition until she is better able to realize that sadly, the judges will not always reward hard work, that there is bribing, that there are judges who play favorites, or who reward people who show up with a certain coach, and so on and so on. Many skaters, of all ages, get so frustrated by all the politics that they do quit. Or they do show skating. But..you really have to be mentally cut out for this type of competition in order to survive in it. I don't know your daughter, but from the sounds of it, you might want to consider just entering her in club shows (if there are any) and making her focus on her tests, for now. She could even have a program she works on for stamina and fun, that she doesn't compete with.
That's just my suggestion for you at this point. I just think it would be a real shame for her to come to dislike the sport because she doesn't yet understand how it all works. And yes, I understand that Australian figure skating is much different than USA figure skating..but....it's still figure skating, and personally I think it will be impossible for you to change anything without ruining your daughter's reputation amongst the judges, thus accomplishing one thing only: giving them another reason to place her last. It's sad, it shouldn't be that way, but the fact that it shouldn't be that way doesn't mean that it isn't. Good luck. :(
twokidsskatemom
05-09-2007, 07:14 PM
I think AW1 is disappointed about WHY she believes her dd placed poorly, not that she placed poorly at all. But
I understand that. But she cant ever control who she skates with or what skills they have.It will never be a level playing field.it just is what is is...
I am so embrassed but if you do a search on me, you will find out upset I was 4 years ago.I said the same thing, she is with older kids ect. I got over that a long time ago.
Good luck !
Isk8NYC
05-09-2007, 08:10 PM
I couldn't care if she didn't win a brass razoo...I think this is a great discussion, with good give-and-take. I just wanted to ask: "What's a brass razoo?"
I appreciate those who have shared that they have felt the same way - I'm glad I'm not completely neurotic as I was being led to believe I am.
You're all right, I will get over it, but for now it's really frustrating the hell out of me!! By the way, the only people who know my frustrations are my mum, my husband and my daughters' coach (and you guys)... this has never EVER once been mentioned to my daughter.
I'm not a wise woman, I'm new to this motherhood thing - she's only 5 and I'm still learning how to be a mum at 30! This job evolves every day and changes my outlook on things.
I apologise stardust skies I did take in what you'd posted, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of it, I can see where you're coming from in parts of it. I'm not ignoring the advice I've been given, but I also don't have to agree with it
(well not right now anyhow :P)
I still don't understand the whole figure skating mentality. I mean, if she were being bullied at school, it would be WRONG of me not to speak out about it and say something to the teachers and headmaster. Well that is the case here in Australia, not sure about other countries, but they have very strong anti-bullying laws here, even in the workplace.
But basically everyone keeps saying 'you're making too much of a big deal over it' 'get over it' 'learn to live with it' ... it's like you're saying "your parenting sucks because you worry about little things".
And yes I know no-one has said that, but that's what it feels like. A bit like saying your troubles are nothing, so shut up ... but why are my troubles any less valid than yours? Get what I mean?
I've already decided not to put her into the next 2 competitions, however I don't think her coach will be very happy somehow. Even though we're good friends, I dont think this will go over very well.
I think this is a great discussion, with good give-and-take. I just wanted to ask: "What's a brass razoo?"
Haha sorry I didn't even think of that. It's a colloquilism (is that the right word?, basically slang) - when you say he hasn't got a brass razoo, it means he hasn't got anything, he's poor that sort of thing...
I should have just said I don't care if she doesn't win anything, but the Aussie in me just won't let me do it! LOL
Isk8NYC
05-09-2007, 09:19 PM
Haha sorry I didn't even think of that. It's a colloquilism (is that the right word?, basically slang) - when you say he hasn't got a brass razoo, it means he hasn't got anything, he's poor that sort of thing... Ahhh. I was hoping it was something interesting like that! I think our equivalent is "You ain't got jack s**t!" Not for use around kids, though. The aussie expression is much nicer, I think.
Ahhh. I was hoping it was something interesting like that! I think our equivalent is "You ain't got jack s**t!" Not for use around kids, though. The aussie expression is much nicer, I think.
Yeah we use that one too :oops: just I try to avoid it because of said daughter :) LOL
stardust skies
05-10-2007, 12:24 AM
I still don't understand the whole figure skating mentality. I mean, if she were being bullied at school, it would be WRONG of me not to speak out about it and say something to the teachers and headmaster. Well that is the case here in Australia, not sure about other countries, but they have very strong anti-bullying laws here, even in the workplace.
Hi, you don't have to apologize about anything - I'm sorry if I was a little harsh with the way I worded things, I tend to do that without meaning to. Thanks for reading my post though, I appreciate it. I'm sure it will all work out, I was just trying to give you another perspective.
As to what you said that I just quoted above...yeah, if she were being bullied then you'd need to report it. But..she's not getting bullied, here. I mean, what is happening with the skating competitions, if anything, is akin to her being consistently showed up at school by a student who has private tutoring every day after school while your daughter doesn't, and your daughter is frustrated because she feels she studies longer and tries harder than the tutored kid and yet he keeps getting better grades than her. This is merely about performances and the fact that not everyone is at a level playing field. There is no way to level out a playing field in skating (or in life, for that matter). But I don't think you could really liken girls that may be a bit more advanced than your daughter choosing to stay behind and compete against her anyway to getting bullied, made fun of, or beat up at school. They're two totally different things.
But you know, interestingly, while bullies NEED to be reported and taken care of, it isn't unusal for a kid who gets bullied to get bullied even worse after a parent (or the kid themselves) reports it, and the bully gets in trouble. Either through retribution by the bully himself, or by the group of friends he's inevitably made, the kid often pays a big price for reporting it. And if it's a popular kid who gets reported, it's even worse, sometimes the bullied kid gets ostracized by an entire school. In most cases, the only successful way to solve a bully problem is to switch schools, unless it's a very mild case. So even if you were to somehow liken getting bullied to these skating competitions, it still would mean that the girls your daughter has to skate with, their parents, their coaches, and any judges who are friendly with those people, would most likely ostracize her and find a way to keep her down in the placements, as well. But again, I wouldn't compare 7-8 year olds who are *maybe* competing one LTS level below where they belong in local skating competitions to bullies for that fact alone.
But again, I wouldn't compare 7-8 year olds who are *maybe* competing one LTS level below where they belong in local skating competitions to bullies for that fact alone.
Okay so that probably wasn't the best analogy - and no I don't think these girls are bullies.
What I meant by that was - standing by and watching and saying nothing while a situation which shouldn't happen takes place. That's what I meant. Just because it happens, doesn't mean it needs to be accepted as normal.
They have acquired all the skills at our highest level of learn to skate - move on. That's what I'm saying.
See in what I can tell from websites I've seen - you guys do USFSA basic, then move onto Freestyle etc. For us, these girls have reached the highest possible level at our learn to skate, and SHOULD be testing their preliminary (the next step after you finish LTS here).... So it would be like saying that my daughter who would probably be Freestyle 2 in USFSA standard, is competing against girls who are like the equivalent in skills to Freestyle 5! In your skating terminology that's 3 levels difference.
I don't know if that helps clarify why I'm so frustrated with it, but our LTS program here is basic to say the least, and while I agree we're talking "small frys" here, I can't help but get annoyed. Like I said, in this country they have a hard time keeping anyone past the LTS program, and I can't help but feel this is partly responsible for it.
Ellyn
05-10-2007, 11:15 AM
I don't know if that helps clarify why I'm so frustrated with it, but our LTS program here is basic to say the least, and while I agree we're talking "small frys" here, I can't help but get annoyed. Like I said, in this country they have a hard time keeping anyone past the LTS program, and I can't help but feel this is partly responsible for it.
So skaters at all levels of the learn to skate program compete against each other? Is this because there are too few learn-to-skate skaters to break up the fields into smaller competitions subdivided by levels and/or age?
If there are at least seven competitors in an event (you said your daughter placed seventh?), maybe it would make sense to split it into two small events. Especially for the youngest kids here the learn-to-skate competitions often keep the events to a maximum of six competitors, often only three or four, and some competitions give ribbons down to sixth place instead of just medals down to third. Can you suggest an approach like that to the competition organizers to keep the beginning competitions more rewarding for the little ones?
If a relatively wide range of ages or skill levels need to compete against each other because of lack of numbers, that probably means that any given skater may stay in the same competition category for more than a year. So a kid could look at the first year in the category as a learning experience and expect to place better the next time she enters the same event at the same level just because she'll be one of the older, more experienced ones in the group the next time.
stardust skies
05-10-2007, 01:43 PM
So skaters at all levels of the learn to skate program compete against each other? Is this because there are too few learn-to-skate skaters to break up the fields into smaller competitions subdivided by levels and/or age?
No, from what I understand, AW1 was just giving an example...that the last level of LTS might be equivalent to Freestyle two, and that since some of the girls are beyond that yet staying in the level, they're equivalent to Freestyle 5. But from what I understand they are all officially in the same level, and that is the issue AW1 has with that.
And I still hear what you're saying, AW1. And, it's true some of the people do FS1 and up after LTS, and some go straight to Pre-preliminary. You don't even have to test Basic Skills if you don't want to before taking Pre-Preliminary, so it's all choice. Basic Skills and USFS testing structures that start at Pre-Pre and goes through Senior are considered to be two separate structures, in fact there are two separate memberships depending on which one you're doing.
But the point is, there are girls competing in Juvenile who have been landing double axels for 2+ years, and there are girls competing in Juvenile who can barely land clean doubles. They all are at the same level for a variety of reasons. Perhaps the girl who is only doing doubles is in a hurry to test up, or perhaps her coach and parents are. Perhaps she has better spins ans spirals that help hold her scores up. Perhaps the girl who is landing clean double axels can't pass Intermediate moves in the field. Perhaps her presentation isn't good enough for Intermediate. But for whatever reason, there are still huge gaps in technical ability competing at the same levels. I mean, some girls in Juv have their Senior moves, some barely squeaked by on their Juvenile moves to make it to competition. This is sort of a normal situation for this sport. Even within a single level, you will find a shockingly wide range of ability. The only thing you can do is try to be the best for your level. You can't stop a Juvenile girl from taking her Senior moves. But yes, if she passes them, she'll be light years ahead of someone who hasn't even started on their Novice moves. But...it's not against the rules. The whole of figure skating competition is based on this. That's what I'm saying. In basically every level, there are 3-4 top contenders that you know are most likely to win. The other kids, in general, don't go into the mindset of "well, they're better than me, so I can't win", but more of the mindset of, "top 10 would be a good achievement for this year". You want to win, yes, but realistically speaking if there are people who are much better than you, then you don't focus on winning, you focus on improving.
Like I said, you can't decide when another skater will be ready to compete at a higher level. You see those other girls doing stuff from Freestyle 5 in practice...well, maybe they're not ready to land those jumps in competition, then. And if they're not, then they're competing where they should be. It isn't like anything is stopping your daughter from learning the higher level jumps and bettering her skating to match that of those girls who you feel should move up. And if you give her the right perspective, she hopefully will, and then she will see that hard work *is* rewarded in the end.
No, from what I understand, AW1 was just giving an example...that the last level of LTS might be equivalent to Freestyle two, and that since some of the girls are beyond that yet staying in the level, they're equivalent to Freestyle 5. But from what I understand they are all officially in the same level, and that is the issue AW1 has with that.
And I still hear what you're saying, AW1. And, it's true some of the people do FS1 and up after LTS, and some go straight to Pre-preliminary. You don't even have to test Basic Skills if you don't want to before taking Pre-Preliminary, so it's all choice.
Yes stardust skies, that's what I mean - there is such a varied level in that group because it's the last level of our skate school, they just hang around there and don't move on... yet they continue to take private lessons, and learn the higher skills and use them in their programs.
And for us, the move from Level 2 at skate school is taking your preliminary test (we don't have pre-pre), which means, there seems to be this huge gaping hole in the sport because there's kids who just don't move on when they should, because they don't want to move up to preliminary.
Clarice
05-10-2007, 09:05 PM
WHY don't they want to move on to Preliminary? What skills are done in competition at that level? Is it a lot more that what is required to pass the test? Is there too big a gap between what's allowed at the highest level of your LTS, and what's necessary to be successful at Preliminary?
WHY don't they want to move on to Preliminary? What skills are done in competition at that level? Is it a lot more that what is required to pass the test? Is there too big a gap between what's allowed at the highest level of your LTS, and what's necessary to be successful at Preliminary?
Clarice, the preliminary test is just a series of circles on the ice - basically testing the skater's edge control. (FI, FO, BI, BO)
In this last competition my daughter was in, this is what they had as required for preliminary skaters...
Jumps
Maximum (5) jump elements, including at least: (1) jump combination or sequence but not more than (3) in total. One jump combination could consist of up to (3) jumps, the other two up to (2) jumps.
Single and/or double jumps may be included and will be counted in the results of a participant. Jumps of less than one revolution (eg Three Jumps) may also be included but will not have a value. They will not be counted as one of the jump elements and will be considered in the Component “Transitions”
Spins
3 spins of a different nature (with a minimum of (4) revolutions in each spin).
Steps
Ladies: One sequence of spirals and/or free skating movements such as turns, arabesques and spread eagles, fully utilising the ice surface.
So, I think there is a gap, how big - can't say! However I do know that these girls I'm speaking of are well capable of doing this level. The highest jump they learn in our LTS program is a Salchow, and as I mentioned one of can do a loop-loop combo.
This is a list fyi of what the Australian Learn to Skate Program looks like (in comparison to other countries I think it differs quite a bit) they just changed it a while back it used to be much more extensive but has been made more basic ...
Level BASIC 1.
Two foot glide
T-position and push (both feet)
One foot glides (R & L)
Forward swizzles
Snowplough stop
Dip (moving)
Level NOVICE
T-stops (R & L)
Forward crossovers (R & L)
Forward stroking
Backward swizzles
Backward two foot glides
Forward slalom skating
Level INTERMEDIATE
Backward one foot glides (R & L)
Backward stroking
Backward crossovers (R & L)
Forward two foot turns to backwards
Backward slalom skating
Backward Two Foot Turn to Forwards
Level ADVANCED
Outside circle stroking (one circle)
Inside circle stroking (one circle)
Rink stroking (one direction and one lap)
Side Stop
Inside open Mohawk
Forward Inside Three Turn
Forward Outside Three Turn
Level 1 FREESKATING
Tap Toe Jump (R & L)
Bunny Hop (R & L)
Two Foot Spin
Forward pivot
Forward Edge Spiral
Lunge (one direction)
Level 2 FREESKATING
Three Jump
Salchow jump
Backward one foot spin
Forward One Foot Spin
Backward pivot
Backward Spiral
Clarice
05-13-2007, 07:55 AM
So your LTS tops out with single Salchows, but they're allowed to do double jumps at Preliminary? That does seem like a pretty big gap to me. I would guess that skaters would stall at LTS until they had axels and doubles before testing to Preliminary. If that's the case, then I think the most effective thing would be to get people to petition your federation to add a Pre-Preliminary level to your structure. We have that level, and at competitions it is usually subdivided into axel and no-axel groups. Your Preliminary sounds fairly comparable to ours - my daughter was not allowed to take her Preliminary test until she had 2 consistent double jumps, so if we were working in your structure, she would have been stalled out in LTS, too. I've seen kids with all kinds of single jump combinations at Pre-Preliminary, but they don't have axels, so they're not ready for Preliminary yet. Sounds like that's where the skaters you're describing belong.
It also sounds like you're caught in the usual problem of what's required on tests being far below what's allowed in competition. The difference between your system and ours is that for the LTS levels we only allow them to use the test elements and it sounds like your system allows them to do much more. Starting at Pre-Prelim, we typically see skills in competition far more advanced than what is asked for on the test. US Figure Skating is introducing new competition events, though, called Competitive Test events, which will be restricted to the test elements for all levels.
Tennisany1
05-13-2007, 03:30 PM
I agree there sure seems to be a big gap between LTS and preliminary. The problem is, no matter how many levels you add, there will always be a gap. Here in Canada you start in Elementary. The program is 1 minute 30 seconds (+or- 10seconds) The highest jump you can have is a loop. Your are limited to 12 months at this level but I believe the clock doesn't start ticking until you are 7 or 8 - ie, if you start competing at 5 or 6 you can stay longer than a year if you like.
The next level is pre-preliminary. The program is the same length and there is no restriction on the level of jumps. Interesting, what happens is that you get kids who don't start competing in Elementary until they are close to landing (if not landing) their axel. This gives them a year to get it competition ready. It makes it very difficult for those kids whose best jump is actually a loop to place well. As I said in my first post, all you can do is stress the personal best model of competition, praise your child's strengths, constructively talk about he or she need to work on, and not worry too much about the placement.
After my dd's first competition she informed me that she had been watching the judges while the kids ahead of her were skating. She then proceeded to tell me that some judges often didn't watch most of the program. In fact, there was one judge whose head was down for all except the openning and closing each program. I don't know whether or not she was right about this, but it certainly gave her perspective about how figure skating works. She also realized that the most important parts of her program are the opening jump and the closing spin. She know she needs to nail both of those!
We have saying in our house when someone starts taking it all too seriously: "Relax, we're not going to the Olympics this week!" :lol:
Sessy
05-13-2007, 04:03 PM
I noticed something like that at a selectional competition for the nationals, but the judges actually had computer screens down there with realtime video on it as it turned out. you sure something like this wasn't the case?
Tennisany1
05-13-2007, 10:15 PM
This was a local competition at the Elementary level. No computer screens anywhere. The reality is that all the kids do the same jumps (up to loop) so it is not too difficult to separate the top three from the rest. In fact it is usually pretty obvious. A few kids will have vastly superior skating skills and spins and they will be the top three, the next three will have slightly better skating skills and good spins and so on.
I'm not complaining. It didn't really even bother my dd as she has her eye on the long term (anything short of a world or olympic gold is not worth worrying about :roll: :lol: ) I just thought it was amusing that she actually watched and noticed.
Mrs Redboots
05-14-2007, 04:52 AM
I think that as the IJS very gradually extends down to the lowest levels of competition, this will stop being quite such an issue. The sandbagging will be, of course, but that's inevitable in this and any sport. But the judges will be looking at the entire programme (how can they grade a loop jump if they didn't see it?) and, what's more, each skater will see exactly what happened - her toe-loop didn't count, for instance, because it was under-rotated or she did a toe 3-jump by mistake. And so on. Plus you can rate yourself against how you scored in a previous competition - higher, lower, what? Where did you lose marks.....
The IJS has its failings, but at least you know what the judges were thinking, and do have a yardstick against which to measure yourself.
I've already decided not to put her into the next 2 competitions, however I don't think her coach will be very happy somehow. Even though we're good friends, I dont think this will go over very well.
I think this is a very wise decision, even though you may have to spend some time getting it across to the coach that it's best. In third grade my younger DD had a teacher who gave rewards only if all the kids in each "cluster" (table) had done their homework. From this, my daughter learned that it was not worth doing her homework, since there was always someone else at her table who hadn't done theirs. It has taken her a long time to learn that there is reward in the work itself and in learning via work. In pulling your daughter out of the next few comps, I think you are heading off this kind of thinking, which could easily lead her to quit skating. While waiting for the possible next competition, maybe you could try to refocus her thinking about competing. She gets to wear a beautiful new dress, she gets to skate in front of everyone as the only skater on the ice, she gets to beat her own previous best performance, she gets to show off how much she has learned. There are lots of inexpensive but interesting skating pins and bits of jewelry that you could buy to commemorate each of her performances. In this way, you can keep an element of external reward in it for her, as she seems to really crave that.
to add further fuel to my anger over this, I found out today that in the higher levels, there are no rules about competing at the level you have tested at.
Which means, you could compete in primary, even though you've passed your novice test - how unfair is that!
Is this the case in other countries?
Clarice
05-15-2007, 09:01 AM
No, in the US we can never compete below our tested level. At nonqualifying competitions, you can "skate up" to the next higher level without having passed that test yet, but you can never "skate down". There might be a loophole in some local competitions, where a skater was one level at the time of the entry date, but passes a test before the competition actually takes place, but certainly for qualifying competitions that would disqualify you from competing.
TreSk8sAZ
05-15-2007, 09:21 AM
No, in the US we can never compete below our tested level. At nonqualifying competitions, you can "skate up" to the next higher level without having passed that test yet, but you can never "skate down". There might be a loophole in some local competitions, where a skater was one level at the time of the entry date, but passes a test before the competition actually takes place, but certainly for qualifying competitions that would disqualify you from competing.
As a clarification, in the US this is only true for freeskate tests. You may not compete below your freeskate test level. However, there are many out there who are competing say, novice who have actually passed their senior moves. In fact, I would hazard a guess and say most skaters are above their freeskate test level in moves in the field. Competition entries are solely by freeskate test level, only Moves if there is a special moves event.
Clarice
05-15-2007, 10:11 AM
True, and this may be part of the problem for AW1 as well. Earlier, she said their Preliminary test was a test of edges - sounds more like our Moves tests. Do they not have free skating tests in Australia?
Mainemom
05-15-2007, 01:01 PM
"Your Preliminary sounds fairly comparable to ours - my daughter was not allowed to take her Preliminary test until she had 2 consistent double jumps, so if we were working in your structure, she would have been stalled out in LTS, too. I've seen kids with all kinds of single jump combinations at Pre-Preliminary, but they don't have axels, so they're not ready for Preliminary yet. Sounds like that's where the skaters you're describing belong."
My DD's coach is very big on testing as soon as they are ready, particularly on Moves, as it gives them something very concrete to focus on. If they had to wait until they had double jumps, none of them would have tested anything as there is only one girl in our entire club doing doubles (not a lot of ice time available in Maine...). Maybe it's different in other states where there is more ice and coaching time. We compete for a very small amount of coaching hours as we have very few coaches in the area and they are all booked solid. We have a lot of girls who have moved up the MIF track but haven't passed anything higher than Pre-Juv or Juvenile on FS because of the jumping requirements.
Clarice
05-15-2007, 01:55 PM
I think it really depends on how you want to play the game. My daughter always tested Moves as soon as she was ready, and passed Seniors when she was 13 and competing Intermediate. She waited on her free tests, at least at the lower levels, until she had the jumps necessary to be competitive. When it became obvious she wasn't progressing as fast with the jumps as girls who were doing well at Regionals, she shifted into more of a test-track mode. She's preparing her Senior free test now (she's 17 now), but won't be a competitive Senior skater at all. If the goal is to pass the tests, there's no problem taking them as soon as the skater is ready. But if the goal is to do well at competitions, especially the qualifying ones, you really have to wait to take the test until you have the skills necessary to be competitive. When the Competitive Test Track events become more available in the US, skaters will be able to choose which track they want to compete on - the Competitive Test Track limits you to the elements on that test level, while the Standard track remains the same as it is now. Skaters can switch back and forth between the tracks from competition to competition, but can't compete in both tracks at the same competition. The qualifying competitions will be Standard track only.
True, and this may be part of the problem for AW1 as well. Earlier, she said their Preliminary test was a test of edges - sounds more like our Moves tests. Do they not have free skating tests in Australia?
I will dig around and see what info I can find, but I believe there is only 1 test per level here. You have to do a program at the higher levels, but only a pattern at some of the lower ones I *think* (well I know for prelim anyway) but I'll look around and dig up some info to share.
I think it's interesting getting the comparison between countries, because everything is sometimes VERY different.
aussieskater
05-15-2007, 11:41 PM
I can help out a little here. Apologies for the longish post.
AFAIK, the ISA testing structure is as follows (I got this from the ISA rule book and the link is below for those who want to read it for themselves):
http://www.isa.org.au/Documents/Rulebook/ISA_Rulebook%20_V-7-1_May_2006_Section_4.pdf
Prelim = pattern only (half circles FO, FI, BO, BI). Everyone who wants to test further (singles, pairs or dance) has to do this test.
Elementary 1 changes the system. The test comprises a pattern, two compulsory dances (Dutch Waltz and Canasta Tango, both partnered), and 1min30s (?) freeskate. Lutz must be included.
If you test dance, you do not need to do the pattern (but you can if you want to). If you test freeskate, you do. (The difference is probably because the dancers have 2 compulsories to do, so "pattern + FS" = "2 dances"). You do not need to do the pattern first, but you can't move out of the level until you have it.
Elementary 2 is the same system as Elementary 1, but the pattern becomes more difficult, the dancers have the Fiesta Tango and the Swing Dance, and the FS is 2 min and must include an axel and loop-loop. Elementary 2 is the last pattern to be tested. From then on it's either dance or FS.
Primary is our last level before Novice. The dancers have 4 dances to do (European, Silver Samba, Foxtrot and 14Step).
Also AFAIK, yes, you can test higher than you compete. I'm guessing that this is because the test from Primary up only requires a FS and there is no "moves"-like test you can do. The catch is that once you've competed at a level you can't then compete down. I don't know whether you are limited in how many levels below your tested level you can go. (eg: whether you can test senior and compete primary or novice, not having previously *competed* above that level).
I don't know whether you are limited in how many levels below your tested level you can go. (eg: whether you can test senior and compete primary or novice, not having previously *competed* above that level).
Thanks aussieskater for the input. My understanding is that there are no rules except for those who are in novice and who are 14 yrs or older - apparently they have to go straight to intermediate.
However I'm aware of at least 2 skaters at our rink who have got at least novice tests under their belt, and are still skating in primary.
This is the pattern they do for their preliminary test. This is my daughter doing her FO pattern. They basically do the same pattern but FO, FI, BO, BI I think.
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-7456299981723233714
Skittl1321
05-17-2007, 08:03 AM
This is the pattern they do for their preliminary test. This is my daughter doing her FO pattern. They basically do the same pattern but FO, FI, BO, BI I think.
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-7456299981723233714
Is that the entire test, or just one pattern? No wonder kids sandbag- if that's all they have to do to get to the level, it would be fairly easy for a student to pass the test, and then impossible to compete in the level!
That's one of the five patterns required for the pre-bronze adult track USFSA test it's called basic consecutive edges- we also have to do FO, FI, BO, BI. Then we have to do perimeter stroking, forward and backward crossovers, waltz eight, and a forward 3-turn pattern. Videos of the adult tests are here- http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=316
Pre-Bronze is similiar to pre-preliminary for the standard track, except pre-preliminary requires only the forward perimeter stroking, the consecutive edges, the waltz eight, and they have to do left and right spirals (on flat is acceptable).
This lists all the elements of the tests, but the other link with videos is more descriptive. http://www.usfigureskating.org/About.asp?id=17
(BTW: Your daughter is adorable as usual, and she has good edge control for her age!)
Is that the entire test, or just one pattern? No wonder kids sandbag- if that's all they have to do to get to the level, it would be fairly easy for a student to pass the test, and then impossible to compete in the level!
From what I know, they only do that exact pattern 4 times for their Preliminary Test - one on each of the FO, FI, BO and BI edges. That's all.
Yes now that I've looked into it - there seems to be a HUGE void between the end of our Learn to Skate, and the next level up!
Ellyn
05-18-2007, 01:17 PM
Yes now that I've looked into it - there seems to be a HUGE void between the end of our Learn to Skate, and the next level up!
That does seem to be the case. However, if there are many skaters at skill levels between still learning the Learn-to-Skate skills and being ready to compete at the next level who are entering competitions, it would probably be possible to divide the competitions appropriately.
For example, for a competition level that's open to all skaters who have completed Learn to Skate and have not yet competed at the preliminary level, offer separate events for ages 7 and under and for 8 and over. (Or draw the line at a different age or make three age groups if the entries warrant doing so.)
OR, offer both restricted and non-restricted events for this level: In the restricted event, they can only get credit for elements covered in Learn to Skate and get deductions for including more advanced jumps and spins. In the unrestricted event, they can do anything that's allowed at the next higher level.
AW1, does your rink or club host a skating competition? Can you volunteer to be one of the organizers planning the event? You could be the one to make a difference locally, and if it's a successful change it could catch on at other rinks/clubs as well.
AW1, does your rink or club host a skating competition? Can you volunteer to be one of the organizers planning the event? You could be the one to make a difference locally, and if it's a successful change it could catch on at other rinks/clubs as well.
Yes they do - they have a big artistic comp once per year (open), plus club championships (only open to club members), and usually one other comp during the year I think. However, I'm not on the committee for the club.
The Aussie Skate ones are arranged by the ISA at our rink I think.
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