Moving through levels in basic programs

[Logan3]

Hi everybody!
First of all I want to say that my dd competed recently and she did very well. For those who remember she had a competition earlier this year that was such a disaster I was questioning where to go with her skating. Things now are evening up and we are all a little wiser....

Now I have another question: how long to stay in a level. Do you stay in a level untill you get really good or do you move up when you can do the skills? This always was a mystery to me. In the last competition one of the girls did such a perfect job it made me wonder. I thought my dd was ready to move up in the next level but now I am wondering if she needs to work a little more in the level she is now. And of course sandbanging. Who really determines that? If she stays back and works more that level is that sandbaging? I asked her teacher and she was very casual. She said that she can move up or stay in the same level for the end of the season (June). I am some how confused. There is always "better" to spin or to do a jump. I started rumbling sorry, just needed your advice and experience in setting goals and get one more time straighten up ......Please enlighten me!

[phoenix]

I for one never encourage kids to be rushed through the Basic Skills program. The things they're learning are the building blocks of ALL skating--and the stronger they get those skills, the less likely they will get stuck later on. They will keep working on all those things as they move up, but if something is shakey or "just barely" worthy of passing, you're better served to let them go through that level again & let them really get the hang of it.

[Isk8NYC]

It's absolutely normal for skaters to stay at the same level more than one session for Basic Skills/Basic levels 4-6. Those are the toughest levels with several CRITICAL elements and they take time to master correctly.

If your daughter has mastered every element for a level, she should focus on that level for competitions. Let's say she's weak in two skills; she should stay on the next-lower level for competitions and try to master those two skills to move up in tests. Be aware that some (not all) skating schools will allow her to move up a level if most of the skills are mastered. The danger is that she might not work on the missing skills again until she's trying to learn something new that builds on those skills.

[beegeemom]

I think kids should take their time, but not so much that it's unfair to the ones that are working on their level. If that makes sense.

My dd had a coach (not her private, it was quite a big deal) push her quickly into the next level because she could do the basic skills barely. So when she went to competition she would get creamed because she was so far below. Thankfully she could care less, she just likes to do her solo and elements, so we just let it go. But I see kids on the ice with her, 2 levels below her, landing the same jumps and doing the same elements. She really could have used a whole season to work on the badge work from the one she passed kwim?

I don't think they should rush. Often once they move on, they don't use the element from the last stage as much. They will down the road I'm sure, but how many junior level kids do you see doing walking crosscuts? LOL.

I say if you are comfortable with the coach you picked, let them make the choice.

[Logan3]

I know what you mean. In one of the competitions we went this year there was a girl in FS1 that did every element just perfect. Her scratch spin was so good that it was very hard to beleive that she did not have a decent back spin so she could be in FS2. Also her half flip was so high it was impressive. I do not know what she was really competing for. I have nothing against this girl, I hardly know her but it made me think. If you become that good in one level that means that for sure you can do a decent job in the level up. At least that's how it works for my dd.

I agree with a previous post that those basic skill competitions do not really mean anything. In my understanding even the levels are "arbitrary".

[twokidsskatemom]

I know what you mean. In one of the competitions we went this year there was a girl in FS1 that did every element just perfect. Her scratch spin was so good that it was very hard to beleive that she did not have a decent back spin so she could be in FS2. Also her half flip was so high it was impressive. I do not know what she was really competing for. I have nothing against this girl, I hardly know her but it made me think. If you become that good in one level that means that for sure you can do a decent job in the level up. At least that's how it works for my dd.

I agree with a previous post that those basic skill competitions do not really mean anything. In my understanding even the levels are "arbitrary".
Dont agree. Just beause you have perfect things in one level, doesnt mean you can do everything in the next level.It take some kids a long long time for a decent backspin or sitspin or camel.
Imo every skater is different.

[sk8ermom]

Do not ever hold your child back in basic skills/ canskate or pre-prelim in order to win medals. Competition is for fun at this level. Work on progression of skills not winning medals.

[AW1]

Do not ever hold your child back in basic skills/ canskate or pre-prelim in order to win medals. Competition is for fun at this level. Work on progression of skills not winning medals.

I wish that some of the people at my rink would have this sense :( There are 2 girls that my daughter constantly competes against who SHOULD be doing prelim, but are kept in the highest level of the LTS program... It comes a point where you can't help but think it's to get the medals. :??

I just put my daughter up a level, and while she is not competitive, she's still enjoying herself (more than I thought she would)

[Lenny2]

My daughter is a fourteen-year-old novice level competitor now and we always moved her up a competitive level as soon as she was just ready enough not to look silly at that level. She stayed at that level until she was at least coming in at the middle of the pack or medaling, and then she would move up. We didn't rush her through the basics--her coach has always been very serious about that. But we have seen no point to keeping her at a competitive level simply to win medals. It has been far better for her to be "working up" and competing with girls who are better than she is than to be "working down" and feeling like she is the leader of the pack. And, in all honesty, she performs far better in competition when she doesn't feel that she is the front-runner and expected to medal. When she thinks that she doesn't have a realistic chance to medal, she usually skates great and sometimes suprises herself with a high placement. When she thinks she has a good chance of medaling or winning, she usually stresses out and falls all over the place. We have definitely learned that the most important thing to take away from competition is a feeling that she skated great and accomplished her goals that day. If she happens to medal, that's just icing on the cake. There is nothing worse than feeling like all her hard work going into the competition didn't show in her performance.

[jskater49]

I wish that some of the people at my rink would have this sense :( There are 2 girls that my daughter constantly competes against who SHOULD be doing prelim, but are kept in the highest level of the LTS program... It comes a point where you can't help but think it's to get the medals. :??



Better get used to it. It's only going to get worse. I remember girls hanging around pre-pre forever especially. And then when they want to get out of regionals...you just gotta decide right now not to let it bother you and ask your daughter if she wants to progress and move up in the sport or have a neato medal collection :roll:

j

[sk8ermom]

It is interesting to go back about 4 years and look at the names of those kids winning at the lower levels, how many are still skating or progressing-lots either burn out or stop progressing because they were never challenged. Or worse, they actually start losing and don't know how

[dmmains]

My daughter is a fourteen-year-old novice level competitor now and we always moved her up a competitive level as soon as she was just ready enough not to look silly at that level. She stayed at that level until she was at least coming in at the middle of the pack or medaling, and then she would move up. We didn't rush her through the basics--her coach has always been very serious about that. But we have seen no point to keeping her at a competitive level simply to win medals. It has been far better for her to be "working up" and competing with girls who are better than she is than to be "working down" and feeling like she is the leader of the pack. And, in all honesty, she performs far better in competition when she doesn't feel that she is the front-runner and expected to medal. When she thinks that she doesn't have a realistic chance to medal, she usually skates great and sometimes suprises herself with a high placement. When she thinks she has a good chance of medaling or winning, she usually stresses out and falls all over the place. We have definitely learned that the most important thing to take away from competition is a feeling that she skated great and accomplished her goals that day. If she happens to medal, that's just icing on the cake. There is nothing worse than feeling like all her hard work going into the competition didn't show in her performance.

I think you're approach is very interesting. My son is in ISI FS-5 and I've been talking to his coach about transitioning into USFSA. She wants to wait until he gets his Axel before making the change. We went to a local USFSA competition today to check out the boys pre-preliminary events. They had it broken into 2 parts. Pre-Pre I and Pre-Pre II. The difference being, I - no Axel, II - Axel. After watching I know my son can definitely hold his own at the Pre-Pre I level. I would really like him to get some real competition and this would be the way to do it. In our area there are very few boys that compete ISI and he usually ends up competing against the book. That doesn't make things very exciting.

[twokidsskatemom]

I think you're approach is very interesting. My son is in ISI FS-5 and I've been talking to his coach about transitioning into USFSA. She wants to wait until he gets his Axel before making the change. We went to a local USFSA competition today to check out the boys pre-preliminary events. They had it broken into 2 parts. Pre-Pre I and Pre-Pre II. The difference being, I - no Axel, II - Axel. After watching I know my son can definitely hold his own at the Pre-Pre I level. I would really like him to get some real competition and this would be the way to do it. In our area there are very few boys that compete ISI and he usually ends up competing against the book. That doesn't make things very exciting.
ISI 5 has an axle, do you mean he is in fs4?
You need to get used to skating with the book with a boy. Most comps are like that. You can skate with girls but not in the FS programs.

[Lenny2]

My son is in ISI FS-5 and I've been talking to his coach about transitioning into USFSA. She wants to wait until he gets his Axel before making the change.

We know many coaches who approach USFSA skating this way, but we don't agree with this approach. We put our daughter in USFSA and had her test prepreliminary long before she had an axel. As you mention, some competitions have a no-axel level but, even if they don't, so what? If your son's other single jumps are decent and he is working on an axel, I would think he is ready to jump in and start competing with the big boys. It's motivating. And, the judging in USFSA skating rewards good spins, presentation, and nice basic skating, especially at the low levels, where everyone is doing the same jumps anyway.

I think that coaches fear that their students and more importantly, their parents, will be unhappy if the coaches encourages the student to move into a level where the student will not necessarily be competitive immediately. If this doesn't bother you, you should make this clear to your coach and discuss setting some goals for your son.

We didn't want our daughter to be afraid of USFSA skating and think of it as a big scary thing. She has been going to regionals since she was prepreliminary, and we have seen many of the same kids there since then. My advice--don't hold your son back. Forge ahead.

[dmmains]

My son is in FS 5 and he's just learning the Axel. All his other jumps are pretty decent. The lutz gives him a bit of trouble but it's getting there.

I was so happy to hear your thoughts on USFSA. I feel the same way. I talked to my son's coach this morning and let her know our thoughts from watching the competition yesterday. I told her we wanted to go for it. She actually said OK. I was expecting some push back. She said he'll have a lot of hard work ahead of him this summer, but I think he's ready. We're going to shoot for the DuPage Open at the end of summer.

Thanks again for the support.

[twokidsskatemom]

My son is in FS 5 and he's just learning the Axel. All his other jumps are pretty decent. The lutz gives him a bit of trouble but it's getting there.

I was so happy to hear your thoughts on USFSA. I feel the same way. I talked to my son's coach this morning and let her know our thoughts from watching the competition yesterday. I told her we wanted to go for it. She actually said OK. I was expecting some push back. She said he'll have a lot of hard work ahead of him this summer, but I think he's ready. We're going to shoot for the DuPage Open at the end of summer.

Thanks again for the support.
Where we live, you are not In fs 5 until you can pass the level.Maybe its different where you live.The kids are in fs 4 until the have an axle and all the fs 5 elements.
I have a daugter in 5 and a son in 4 :}

[dmmains]

I think it's just a terminology thing. My son has passed his FS 4 level and competes at that level. He's currently working on FS 5. In our program that's where they learn the axel.

[twokidsskatemom]

I think it's just a terminology thing. My son has passed his FS 4 level and competes at that level. He's currently working on FS 5. In our program that's where they learn the axel.
I think in all ISI they learn axle in 5.We dont have group classes but here we dont say we are in a level tll we pass it.:)
My daughter tested and competed in pre pre before she landed her axle. But to be competive, girls need it. Boys, move up faster anyway it seems.

[Lenny2]

My son is in FS 5 and he's just learning the Axel. All his other jumps are pretty decent. The lutz gives him a bit of trouble but it's getting there.

I was so happy to hear your thoughts on USFSA. I feel the same way. I talked to my son's coach this morning and let her know our thoughts from watching the competition yesterday. I told her we wanted to go for it. She actually said OK. I was expecting some push back. She said he'll have a lot of hard work ahead of him this summer, but I think he's ready. We're going to shoot for the DuPage Open at the end of summer.

Thanks again for the support.

You'll have a ball at DuPage. It will be so exciting. Watch the higher level groups, especially the boys. You'll see some really good skating--much more competitive than you'll see at ISI competitions. Good luck--I hope it all works out for you and your son.

[Isk8NYC]

I think in all ISI they learn axle in 5.We dont have group classes but here we dont say we are in a level tll we pass it.You are correct in that the Axel is an ISI Freestyle 5 requirement and it must be fulfilled in order to test and compete as an ISI Freestyle 5 skater.

Dmmains' statement is common in ISI as skaters prepare for the next level. "Working on (or skating at) a FS5 level" doesn't mean that the skater's passed that level; it means s/he's preparing for that test and doing those elements. It comes from being put into group lessons classes at the "Freestyle 5" level. If a skater's already passed FS4, they wouldn't be put into that level of group - they'd be put in FS5. It's just terminology - dmmains did not intend to imply that her son was "skating up." While it may be uncommon in your area, I've come across it many times.

In areas where the ISI LTS program is more popular than the USFSA Basic Skills program, many skaters test and compete ISI until they reach the ISI FS4/FS5 level. The axel is often critical if local USFSA competitions fail to offer "No Axel" as a limit in the No Test categories.

In studying upcoming competitions' forms, I've found that some of the "No Test" categories allow the Pre-Prel MITF tests, others require the skater to compete Pre-Prel. (Which usually allows an axel.) Coaches/parents have to be careful when signing up for competitions, to make sure the skater is challenged, but not overwhelmed, by the competition.

[twokidsskatemom]

You are correct in that the Axel is an ISI Freestyle 5 requirement and it must be fulfilled in order to test and compete as an ISI Freestyle 5 skater.

Dmmains' statement is common in ISI as skaters prepare for the next level. "Working on (or skating at) a FS5 level" doesn't mean that the skater's passed that level; it means s/he's preparing for that test and doing those elements. It comes from being put into group lessons classes at the "Freestyle 5" level. If a skater's already passed FS4, they wouldn't be put into that level of group - they'd be put in FS5. It's just terminology - dmmains did not intend to imply that her son was "skating up." While it may be uncommon in your area, I've come across it many times.

In areas where the ISI LTS program is more popular than the USFSA Basic Skills program, many skaters test and compete ISI until they reach the ISI FS4/FS5 level. The axel is often critical if local USFSA competitions fail to offer "No Axel" as a limit in the No Test categories.

In studying upcoming competitions' forms, I've found that some of the "No Test" categories allow the Pre-Prel MITF tests, others require the skater to compete Pre-Prel. (Which usually allows an axel.) Coaches/parents have to be careful when signing up for competitions, to make sure the skater is challenged, but not overwhelmed, by the competition.

We never have all the pre pre A pre pre B that I hear everyone talking about.. we go from non test to pre pre.There are kids with axles and kids without.
Here, pre pre moves is ok for non test.
I didnt mean to inply that she thought her skater was skating up. I just hear that alot.. about being in the next level when they really dont compete in that level.:) I guess we just talk about competing, not group classes.

[Lenny2]

In our area, competitions frequently have a pre-pre A group (no axel) and a pre-pre B group (axel) (sometimes the A and B designations are reversed). Moves tests never are considered in determining whether a skater may compete in a level. Indeed, many skaters test way "up" in their moves. Some kids may test up to juvenile moves or even higher while never testing beyond prepreliminary freeskate. I don't support this practice, but it happens all the time. The competition announcements around here almost always allow a skater to compete at his or her freeskate test level or one level higher. So, if a skater hasn't taken any USFSA test yet, he or she can compete in "no-test" or pre-preliminary (which is one freeskate test level higher than no test). The skater still must be a member of the USFSA, though.

[Isk8NYC]

Moves tests never are considered in determining whether a skater may compete in a level. So, if a skater hasn't taken any USFSA test yet, he or she can compete in "no-test" or pre-preliminary (which is one freeskate test level higher than no test). The skater still must be a member of the USFSA, though.
In the past, most competitions in this area designated "No Test" to exclude anyone who'd taken a USFSA FREESTYLE test, with no comment about MITF testing. I have a few students who are ready to test Pre-Prel MITF and want to compete this year in freestyle without an axel or lutz.

I pulled about six competition packets yesterday and found that some of the competitions had updated their "No Test" rules this year to exclude skaters who've taken ANY USFSA test, including MITF. Those comps are instead offering split "Pre-Prel" categories to include/exclude axels and doubles. It's probably to prevent sandbagging.

[Lenny2]

That's interesting, but we don't see many kids testing any moves tests before they test prepreliminary freeskate. Now, once they test prepreliminary freeskate, many test way "up" in their moves, but we don't see many (or even any) taking just moves tests without any prepreliminary freeskate test. The prepreliminary moves and freeskate tests usually (or even always) go hand-in-hand around here.

[jskater49]

That's interesting, but we don't see many kids testing any moves tests before they test prepreliminary freeskate. Now, once they test prepreliminary freeskate, many test way "up" in their moves, but we don't see many (or even any) taking just moves tests without any prepreliminary freeskate test. The prepreliminary moves and freeskate tests usually (or even always) go hand-in-hand around here.

That's probably because the pre-pre fs is pretty easy. I wouldn't be too quick to judge about sandbagging just because kids are testing way up in moves either, when you get to doubles, many kids just can't do the jumps, but they want to accomplish as much as they can in moves or dance. I know a girl who can often win at pre-juv even without reliable doubles because she is so accomplished in moves and dance and her basic skating and spins are so good. But she can't land a double to save her life, barely her axel even. I don't call her a sandbagger. I say to girls who can do doubles and lose to her - well work on your basic skills!

j

[Isk8NYC]

Now, once they test prepreliminary freeskate, many test way "up" in their moves, but we don't see many (or even any) taking just moves tests without any prepreliminary freeskate test. Interesting - very different from this area. What is also common is to have the skater stay one level ahead in MITF.

Since each level's MITF test has to be passed before the skater can attempt to take the freestyle, the safest bet is to have the skater stay at least one level higher on the MITF tests than on the Freestyles. That way you never lose a freestyle test fee because the same-level MITF wasn't passed at that test session. When I tested same-level MITF and FS last month, the freestyle was "conditional" on my passing the MITF portion.

[Lenny2]

This is the approach my skater has followed also--one moves test ahead of her freestyle. She now has junior moves and novice freestyle. We'll probably let her take her senior moves soon, so that she will have her gold medal in moves. But we have seen prejuvenile skaters pass senior moves. Frankly, I think the standards for passing have come way down, because the senior moves that I have seen pass by these young kids were nowhere near the quality that they should have been. The attitude of these kids has been to "get the moves out of the way." They don't understand that the moves are the fundamentals of skating, necessary basics and foundations for the jumps and other technical elements.

[dmmains]

Thanks everyone for your input. I learn so much from all of you. Still being pretty new to the whole skating world I find all the rules and nuances fascinating and confusing at the same time.