My first competition!

[Sessy]

Teehee! Well first of all, yesterday there wasn't just a competition, there was a test as well. Which I passed! You could get a maximum of 14 points, you needed 12 to pass, I got 13,5 points. I missed a half a point on my salchow, which is my worst jump even though it improved tons since I started practicing the axel, but nonetheless that jump is awful. The other jumps all went very well for the test. My spin wasn't centered, but it doesn't list in the test requirements that it should be centered yet. I skated very typical of the way I generally skate, not better nor worse than I skate in practice. Even though I had cramp in my foot. :x

Now as for my first competition... Mom filmed both the warming up and the competition, so video's will follow once I get the cd from her.

Well the warming up went very good. Except I couldn't land the flip clean in my warming up so I decided I'd try the flip if the loop would work in programme, otherwise just do a really BIG waltz jump. Generally, if the loop doesn't work for me, the flip won't either.

The BIG MOMENT however... Well. I got cramp in my bielman spiral, and because I was too stubborn to let go, I went and did a bellyflop over my toepicks, landing on my ribs and hipbones. Both my ribs and hipbones are now missing bits of skin from. They're also blue. They also hurt terribly yesterday and I couldn't really breathe.
So right after this spiral, I had powerpulls and a lunge and a loop and a scratch spin in a row. And I couldn't breathe. Well I did the powerpulls really well, the lunge didn't go as deep as it should, I couldn't set up properly for the loop because of pain in my ribs so I fell there too, and I did a pretty bad scratch spin, but at least, I didn't fall on that one.

From there I of course dropped the flip and did the waltz jump, which wasn't as good as I'm used to doing them but ok, I'll take it. I had to drop a lot of the footwork because I was running out of time, but I did do a few things very nicely which are difficult for me to do.

Overall, it didn't go too bad. I was worried I'd completely loose it mentally if I fell, but I didn't think about the fall at all anymore once I could just breathe again allright. I was afraid I wouldn't smile, but I smiled a lot actually on inbetween bits because it relaxed me. I was afraid I wouldn't know where to continue if I had a fall like did happen on dancing competitions (ballroom), but it went like it did on my piano performances from when I was 12 or so, where just the melody of the music piece that I know so well in my head was enough to pull me back on track.

And everybody said I had a really hard fall from the looks of it and that I did recover VERY well.

So overall, I'm not unhappy.


Also, after the competition we had about a half an hour of ice to just skate on for the fun of it, and I did. I've got this "karate kick" (kind of a 1-foot T-stop with a kick, in effect you spin around as you kick, kind of like a really bad salchow without a takeoff) and some kids asked if I could do that one jumping up. Answer is, I can. So for the artistique competition in Groningen I plan to attend coming season, I know I'll be doing some kicks and I also know I'll be doing my dagger trick. I didn't do it here, because I was worried small children might try to copy me and hurt themselves. I have some scars from the days that I did role-playing games and renaissance fairs myself, I've had a dagger all through my leg once. In Groningen, it's a competition for adults though (one of the 2 we have) so presumably, adults will be smarter than to try it, so I can do it there.

Oh and I skated on a song, "Der Spion" (the spy) by Schandmaul, a folk-metal band, and I don't think I'll ever loose the nickname "Spion" anymore! Everybody from our club calls me that now. :lol:

Also, the fact that I passed this test also means that as far as our club is concerned, I can do competitions. They'll make me a programme now and stuff (the programme for this was just one I'd thought up myself).

And I'm glad I felt relatively at ease to skate. I was shaking too much to open a water bottle on the bus to the rink, but once I had my skates on and went into the hall, I kind of left that behind me. And though it was reasonably full (I've seen selectional competitions for the nationals that had less audience), I could put it completely out of my head that there were people watching and that there were people grading it and everything, I just skated for myself really. So I'm glad about that.
I did have to go pee like 6 times before though, so I wasn't entirely at ease. LOL!

[Ice Dancer]

CONGRATULATIONS

Look forward to seeing videos.

Sorry to hear you got a little hurt, hope you arent feeling too sore.

[Mrs Redboots]

Congratulations!!!!

[jskater49]

That's great - on your test and for your first competition - too bad about the fall - but now that you've got that over with, you've got nothing to fear for the next time!

j

[Hannah]

Congratulations!

[Isk8NYC]

Congratulations!!!!

[tidesong]

Congratulations!

[dbny]

CONGRATULATIONS!

[Petlover]

CONGRATULATIONS Sessy!!!! Good job!!!!

[southernsk8er]

Congratulations! That is great news on the test and competition!! It sounds like you did very very well for your first time. Looking forward to the videos!

[sk8_4fun]

congratulationsespecially for carrying on after such a nasty fall, well done!

[Team Arthritis]

Way to Go Sessy, your story made me smile, thanks! http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/froehlich/a055.gif
Lyle

[jazzpants]

WTG, Sessy!!!

[Sessy]

Here's two video's of the practice AFTER the competition. Of the competition, mom made one file very strongly compressed so I asked her for a better one.

Anyway how the judges on the test thought my toeloop is better than my sal is beyond me, but here's also some attempts at a sit spin and at a camel spin and stuff.

I must say it greatly helps to see myself skate. I guess I'll have to find some way to get more video's next season! I totally understand now why the more careful I am about the flip the less likely it is to succeed (and also, whaaaaaaaat the freak am I doing with that right shoulder? That needs to change! Why didn't anybody point this out to me before? Oh yeah, group lessons. Figures. No wonder I half "lost" the flip & lutz, DUH!!!)
And I think my sal would be better if I'd swing the leg less around. Right? Also the approach to the spins needs to change completely, no wonder they're uncetentered.


So, check it out, I'm the big girl in all black & pants, doing 2 bad flips, a loop, a bad loop-loop, uncentered scratch with fall, a very bad attempt at a sitspin, a half-centered attempt at a sitspin, a very bad attempt at a camel, and some steps from a jive, in desperate need of MORE FREAKING SPEED:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlxI1B2gsVw

Here's one with bad waltz jumps and my trademark "Shht, I'm a spy, don't tell anyone!" spiral that was my undoing at competition and about which I was very careful in this after-competition practice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiNxqYMgWlQ

[Sessy]

BTW do feel free to give me all the pointers you can!


OH AND HERE'S THE COMPETITION!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XhagP9zKkg



well.

Oh yeah here's the warming up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_NwC2UerBo

[doubletoe]

Wow, Sessy, you have come such a long way! Congratulations! :D

[kateskate]

Ouch nasty fall! Well done for getting up and carrying on so well!

You have good speed and ice coverage

[peanutskates]

well, have my uneducated opinion, but the second jump you did looked really nice!. don't know what it's called. but it looks like my waltz jump feels. which is good.

only thing I thought was on your back xo's, you seem a little slow. anyone else agree?
but otherwise it was very good :) what level are you (or what are you working on now?)

[Sessy]

I'm in the Netherlands, so we have a different testing system all together. Right now, I'm not working on anything because of a 5-month summer break. Which, considering my anckle, is really good for me.
All I'm doing right now are all kinds of crossovers and edges on quad rollers, since this doesn't seem to be straining my anckle. So I'm hoping my speed & flow will be better by the end of the summer.

Our Dutch tests are named like moves in the field and vrijrijden (which means freeriding literally) but they do have different names and vary slightly and we do not have a separate track for adults. So here's the two tests I wanna pass:

Moves in the field - Interbrons

Skating forwards (both ways)
Curves along the long side of the track - forward and backward, both inside and outside edges.
Change-foot spirals along the long side of the rink, changing leg on the red line.
Waltz eight - 3-turns in an 8-shaped pattern.

Vrijrijden - Interbrons:
Waltz
Toeloop
Salchow
Loop
Flip
Lutz
Combination of 2 jumps, of which at least 1 must be a flip, lutz or loop.
Changefoot spin with at least 3 rotations per leg, centered.
Sit spin with at least 4 rotations in sitting position, centered
Camel spin with at least 4 rotations in position, centered.


The test I passed on friday 13th with 13,5 out of 14 points required me to do waltz, toeloop and salchow. Before the anckle problem I could do them with a loop behind them too, and before the anckle problem I also had the flip and lutz and seeing the video's I know exactly what I started doing wrong in the time I couldn't pick without pain in my right leg. So I'm going to take a guess here and say that probably the jumps aren't going to be the problem.
The spins are.
The only spin I actually have centered is the sit spin, but then my sit spin isn't actually sitting... My scratch usually travels for several yards and I do not have a backspin at all (although strangely, on socks or on a spin trainer, my backspin is far better than the scratch is and once, I did loop-loop-loop-loop-loop-loop-loop-loop on the floor while I was drunk and it worked well - so I'm guessing the problem is the entry, not so much my ability to balance or hold position).

[Sessy]

You have good speed and ice coverage


only thing I thought was on your back xo's, you seem a little slow. anyone else agree?

LOL! Uhmmm :) Dissenting opinions! Yummie! :D

Well if you're looking at the video's where I'm inbetween all those kids, the reason I'm slow there is that I don't wanna skate into them and I'm also slowing my crossovers for all my spins and jumps except the waltz jump. I guess the set-up for the waltz jumps at the very beginning in the second video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiNxqYMgWlQ) is about the way I normally do my xo's.

And I know those could be faster too. Which is why I'm practicing them on rollers now! :D

[kateskate]

I thought your speed was ok. Sometimes the crossovers looked a little (only a little) laboured. But excellent ice coverage and speed for only 8mths skating.

[Sessy]

laboured? what is that

[kateskate]

Laboured - like it was a lot of effort for you to move. Which can make you look slower than you are.

But only a little and only if I'm being ultra critical.

Did you choreograph the programme by youself btw?

[Sessy]

Yeah but they'll make one for me now that I passed F-test. :lol:

[tidesong]

Haven't seen you before so can't comment on improvement, but seems pretty decent and you've pointed out all the main things you can improve on, so no need to elaborate on that.

Just a note that I notice that you tend to drop your arms between moves you hold them better when you are entering or finishing an element, then you drop them before the next move. But I think with choreography maybe that will be handled, but just in case you ever choreo for yourself again, you might want to plan what to do for inbetweens.

I would say it would be nicer if you seemed more confident about your elements but it appears the fall did take quite a bit out of you... still a very good job coming back from the fall and also looking forward to a better program next time!

[Sessy]

Here's something from december 1st:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mAVdZUVneg

Thanks about the choreography thing! I hadn't noticed!

[BatikatII]

Wow - impressive hydroblades! You seem to have done fantastically well in such a short time. It took me 3 years to pluck up courage to actually jump!!!

The main thing I noticed was that you need to work on extensions. e.g try and point the toe instead of flexing the foot - sometimes it looks like your foot is coming off the ice with the heel being last to leave the ice and then your free leg is bent at the knee too. You could work on pushing with the side of blade more, turning out the hip, straightening the knee and pointing the toe(well as much as you can in skates!!!) of the free leg. It comes with continued practice and my dance coach is always on at me about turnout and extensions so I am very aware of it now! Also with your arms - try and keep themout and steady when you are stroking between elements. Getting the extensions in your basic stroking and crossovers will turn you from looking like a beginner skater with impressive jumps to looking like a good skater with impressive jumps!

The other thing is that you do a lovely entry edge into the spin but then you turn and step out of the circle. I was taught that you should step more or less back the way you came (into the circle you've just done on your entrance edge) e.g angle between entrance edge and step forward onto outside edge should be more like 30 degrees where yours look like almost 180 degrees (may just be a trick of the camera position though!). This should help with centreing the spins. Also try entering into the spin but hold your arms and free leg out for as long as you can - this is very hard to begin with but once you can do this and hold this position for a rev or two to get your centre and then bring them in it should improve your spins no end. Mine went from 3 revs to 16 after I practised this for a while! You seem to have good kneebend and you can also try staying down in the knee on the spin until you feel centred and then coming up to position.

Still I think for the short time and mainly group lessons you are doing great and should be very pleased with your progress. You appear very flexible too (I'll never be able to do a Bielman anything:cry: ) which is a great asset - and completely fearless which is an even greater asset!

Great job on the competition and carrying on after a nasty fall too!:bow:

[Sessy]

OK not to sound like I'm making up excuses, because actually, I would very much like to fix both these problems, because I'm aware of them too. So that's why I'm saying what my problems in fixing these problems are, because maybe somebody knows how to fix those problems. Are you still with me? :lol:

When I try to point my toe through, I get cramp. Not just a bit, but like so much that as soon as I put that foot down I stumble over the toepicks. Actually I get cramp very easily all the time, even at night in bed I regularly wake up from cramp, but for some reason pointing my toes up really seems to trigger cramp every time. Not just on ice, in ballet as well. I tried taking magnesium already, it didn't do a thing. A friend of mine who's studying for professional ballet dancer says it's normal to get cramp pointing your toes but I'm a little sceptical, is it really?

With the spin, I know I'm stepping out of the circle actually. You probably don't know this, but it took me a giant time to learn to spin, I've whined about the spin for ages on messageboard, and the problem turned out to be that my left blade was curving to the inside at the forward part of the blade: I'd bent my blade! I could spin on it for a few revolutions, but of course, you can't ever spin on bent blades.

However, I've taken a lot of bad habits from that time to my new blades. Which is why I wanna work with a private teacher on those spins actually, because those bad habits need to be taken out. I started doing this stepping out of the circle thing because when I tried stepping into the circle on the new blades like I did on the old ones, I'd either fall over to the left (literally fall) on the 3-turn into the spin, or I'd grind to a halt and then do a spin from standstill. Basically I get on such deep an edge that I can't hold it if I step into the circle, and I know it's because of the way the old blades were (I can't really explain it, with the old blades, they were curving in, so you needed to have your centre of gravity left of your left blade if you wanted to be on an outside edge at all)

I just don't know how to take it out again. Because if I bring my right leg out farther to the side, or if I have my centre of gravity more to the right (which technically the leg does too, but anyway), or anything I tried to fix this, then I simply can't do a 3-turn because I'm immediately on a flat and to do a 3-turn from a flat, you go up on the toepicks and it's uncontrolled. If I just step into the circle from crossovers with speed, I fall to the left off my left outside edge. So basically after messing around, I've no idea how to fix it and I'm gonna get private lessons in the upcoming season (right now, there's no ice till september anyway).

As for the hydroblades - thanks! I just don't get why I can't go down in a sit spin. :lol: I'm sure it'll come with practice though.


However, if any of these 2 problems (cramp & falling off the edge) ring a bell with anybody, I'm very eager to hear how to solve them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thin-Ice]

I don't know about the spin problem -- but as far as the cramping goes here are a couple of suggestions:

1) Drink plenty of water all day and eat a banana (for its potassium) before you skate.

2) If you get cramps all the time, it could be the muscles need to be stretched so point and flex your feet several times a day when you are sitting, or standing in line, or whenever you think about it. Hold each position for a count of 3 or 5 or 10, then repeat as much as you can. It's likely to cause cramping at first, but with the continued use of the muscles and the added potassium and water, it should help in a couple of weeks.

Good luck!

[tidesong]

This is wierd about the foot cramping issue... does it happen all the time? I'm glad you are taking ballet although I would have thought this issue could be resolved in ballet class, have you considered checking with your ballet instructor about this?
Personally, I have gotten cramps when I point my toe usually when my foot is not warmed up. It helps when I use my hand to help to point my foot at times. I believe that should ease up with practise, more flexibility in the foot and also proper warmup (of the foot).

Please do work with a private instructor, if you are having trouble doing things, then as much head knowledge as you may have, it is still hard to implement, a private instructor can see what you are doing and help on the spot.

There is no ice anywhere for you until september! I'm so sorry to hear that!

[BatikatII]

Just throwing out an idea since I have no idea what is causing your cramps but could it be that you are either tensing the foot too much when you point it or that you are scrunching up the toes - curling them up. I know I do this when I am trying to point my toes and it isn't comfortable!

Does it happen if you just try to point and flex your foot without skates?

Someone suggested to me that it can be easier to think of extending out through the ball of your foot rather than the toes. Keep toes relaxed. Try without skates and flex your foot up first then point down with your toes as hard as you can and see if you find your foot getting really tensed and toes curling under. Now try and just think about getting the ball of your foot (under the big toe joint) to point down while keeping the foot relaxed and see if that helps. Also work on keeping the free hip and foot turned out.

Another exercise (off-ice) that helps you to get a feel for the difference between turned out and not turned out is to stand straight with both feet facing forward. Then take one leg straight behind you and keep the foot facing forward. That foot will now be on it's toes (think toepick!bad!). Now bend the leg you are standing on a little and try to bring that foot straight forward pushing off from the toe and you will find you have to bend the knee more (this would be toepushing on skates) or you have to flex the foot to get it through - not pretty!

Now try the same thing again but this time take one leg back behind you at a 45 degree angle til you are on the toe. For examples sake try it standing on left leg and take right leg behind you. Keep weight on left leg. Now bend the knee of the left leg and see how with your foot turned out to the side, the whole of the side of your foot can drop to the floor (this is like pushing off with the side of your skating blade).

Now bring that free foot forward keeping the turnout and see how you can keep the position of the foot the same while keeping the free leg straight.

Also try standing with foot behind at the 45 degree angle as above and leg straight, and bend the supporting knee so side of free foot is on floor. Now simply straighten the supporting leg and draw in the free leg til feet are together and then change over so it mimicks the skating action. When you have ice again you can try it on the ice.

For the spins - if your 3 turns are the problem then the exercise that helped stabilize the edge before the 3 turn for me, was to get on to an outside edge and just practice holding it longer and longer trying to get it to curve more and more so you are going on an ever decreasing spiral. Eventually (once you get the balance right) you will get to a point where you really have to turn but try to let the blade do this for you - resist the temptation to force the turn, as hard as you can.

Also don't worry about the speed for a bit. More important to get the technique right and then build up the speed (says she who has a horrible habit of rushing everything and is only now realising after 7 years that good things come to those who wait and this is so true in skating.)

When you get back on ice try doing your back crossovers and then simply hold the back inside edge position for as long as you can. Just practising that and getting really stable and controlled will help with the next bit. If you are falling off when you step forward to the outside edge then you are possibly rushing it. So after practising holding the back inside edge (making sure arms (and left leg) are checked back to right side of body) , add in the step forward to outside edge. Simply step straight back the way you have just come onto a shallow outside edge (do not turn your upper body at all!)and hold this edge, and hold and hold and hold and hold - let the edge do the work. At this point the practice on holding the outside edge above kicks in and eventually you will find your circle decreasing to the point where you have to turn.

Anything that isn't working in skating can almost always be traced back to the entry so getting the entry right on any spin or jump is crucial.

NB I'm not a coach but those exercises above helped me, so maybe they can help you!

Good luck!

[Sessy]

My feet basically cramp any time I try to do this with my feet:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:BHAkGpRPuR4OOM:http://www.mannequingallery.com/images/Custom_ballet_feet_pic_2.jpg

Haven't talked to my ballet instructor no... Well then we don't have ballet till september either (I was SO upset at our club, I mean really, if you don't have ice you can still do ballet! Not that it'd matter for me with my anckle in current state, but still - for everybody else it matters!) I guess I should after the summer!

It also happens if I curl my toes down too.

I eat a lot of bananas and other fruit, and I mean a LOT. Nobody I know eats as much as I do. I also take vitamin and mineral supplements because I'm allergic to certain foods.

And it's always been like that. I remember as a child my mom would take me to the doctor who'd make me pick up things with my toes, but still that didn't really work. I dunno WHAT it is. But I sure wish it'd go away.
What happens with this cramp is that suddenly, the foot becomes hollow. So it automatically does the thing you're trying to do, like ballet-feet, except in the extreme. And then it doesn't go away. It's really a nightmare to get it to go away, it can totally stay on for like 15 minutes. With skates it's usually less bad because the lacing keeps the foot from doing it in extremes.
Now, I do have very flat feet or what it's really called? You know when your feet don't really have a crease. I'm really supposed to wear those inlay soles for it, but I can't because we tried several types and I couldn't walk in them even after months of getting used to. So I've never had any since I was like 10. Maybe that's somehow got to do with it. Or the nerve damage at birth (it's worst in my right leg, and I was partially paralysed over the right side of my body at birth - it went away as I grew up, except I still step on glass and nails without noticing and then run around with it for a while, until somebody asks me why my sock is bloody.) It might have to do with my problems with my veins too. I don't know. Whatever it is, it sucks.


I'm gonna add this thread to favourites to read it back in september. :)

If it doesn't work I'm just gonna have to do spirals on my right leg I guess. My spirals on my right leg are BAD, but at least I don't have a problem pointing the toes of my left leg.

[Sessy]

(making sure arms (and left leg) are checked back to right side of body) ,

I don't understand this. Can you explain what you mean? I don't get the English words. :oops:
I thought checking meant to push the right shoulder back? So how does one check the left arm and leg?

[BatikatII]

I don't understand this. Can you explain what you mean? I don't get the English words. :oops:
I thought checking meant to push the right shoulder back? So how does one check the left arm and leg?


Sorry I should explain that the left arm is across the body towards the right and the right arm and shoulder is held a little back (i.e. the upper body is turned slightly counter to the curve you are on with the back inside edge)

The left leg is also checked back across the path of the tracing (behind the skating foot - with leg straight and toes pointed!;) ) (or since you are going backwards I guess it is across where the tracing will be when the blade gets there). Don't release the check til well after you've stepped forward onto the outside edge. This helps to stop any falling off the outside edge. And then you can release it as you do the actual 3 turn which gives you the snap into the spin. I'm trying to go through the motions on the floor as I write this to see if this is really what I do - it would be easier to do on ice! Husband is giving me very funny looks:lol: Unfortunately I won't be on the ice again for a week as our rink has it's 'open competition' all next week.

A couple of private lessons with a good coach would probably sort out your problems and then it's just practice.

I take 'checking' to mean basically any counter rotational position especially of the upper body and arms, since the idea of checking is to stop rotation or to prevent rotation until you want it. Therefore depending on what direction you are travelling in and what direction of rotation you need to stop, it can be arms to any side e.g for alternating outside 3's you are stopping the rotation in opposite directions each time and therefore checking to left and right sides alternately. To check the left arm and leg prior to the spin you hold them across the midline of the body to the right side.

As for the cramping - it sounds like you need the advice of a foot specialist doctor. Maybe it would be worth trying proper medically fitted insoles in your skates, though I imagine they could be expensive.

[BatikatII]

Hey there Sessy!
do tell me to get lost if you want ;) but just another thought. Have you looked at your spins in slow motion? I just had a look at your you tube practice video and if you press 'go' then 'pause' repeatedly you get slow motion!
:lol:
It really shows up where the problem is! To be honest I am amazed you can spin at all because after your lovely entry edge position which is checked just fine (just needs free leg a bit straighter!:D ), you then straighten up, completely release the upper body check, turn to face the opposite way and it then looks exactly like you are about to do a 3 jump (waltz jump) and not a spin at all. Your right back inside edge almost becomes a right back outside edge before you step forward with a big step on to a very steep outside edge by which time you have completely lost any advantage to doing the crossovers windup entry. There is then no possibility of holding the outside edge because the free leg is coming through already with some force so you are forced to go into the spin even if you are offcentre which means you can't hold it or control it or you fall off it. You can go into a spin very slowly and gently and produce the speed by pulling in tightly rather than going into it with a great deal of force.

Try thinking instead of a very small step onto the outside edge (logically the bigger the step you take, the harder it is to control your balance because it is a bigger change in your centre of gravity). If, from the checked position, you just take a very small step forward without changing the direction you are facing (almost just bringing free foot forward till feet are together and simply changing onto that foot (on a gentle outside edge) rather than thinking about a step at all. Then push off with the right foot and keep this new free foot (right foot) a little behind you as you go onto the edge and aim to keep shoulders over hips but keeping the check till you do the 3 turn.

You also want to turn your head a little towards the left shoulder as you go into the spin. I noticed on the sit spin that your head was looking at your free leg (right) which again takes you off your centre of balance.

Apologies if you don't want so much detail - I have discovered I quite enjoy dissecting skating movements:lol: Thanks for letting me!!!!!!

If you can find a good skater who will let you video her (or him!) sometime you can compare the positions at each stage of the entry and the spin.

What a shame you have no ice til September - you'll have to take a trip to the UK! or at least somewhere there is ice.

You can do the same with the jumps - try looking at your loop in slow mo and see if you can find someone with an excellent technique to compare it to. I'll resist the temptation to dissect it here but I will tell you that it took me ages to get this jump. I must have spent the best part of a year just sitting on that back outside edge wondering how it was possible to even move from that position let alone jump!

BTW it took me years to get a decent spin so I still think you are doing fantastically well with your skating!!!!!

[Sessy]

Hmmm actually with my anckle, I can right now barely walk, let alone skate, so it's a good thing there is no ice. There was ice for the past 2-3 months that I skated with this very same anckle and it obviously wasn't getting better from it. So this way I'm forced to rest it and I'm glad about it. I might even see a doctor about it (spare me the preach, please).


I'm very glad you ARE dissecting the spin! I'm actually hoping to get avi's of my skating sometime soon and then be able to upload slomo video's of it all entirely like I did with my off-ice axel attempts (thank you everybody who commented on those!)

To be honest, I do understand what you're saying about almost doing a waltz jump and wondering how I spin at all. I can do inverted/hanging situps and have an 8-pack going, without having done any belly muscle exercises in the past half year, except spinning! LOL!

The part I don't understand is what you want me to do... Especially this part:
If, from the checked position, you just take a very small step forward without changing the direction you are facing (almost just bringing free foot forward till feet are together and simply changing onto that foot (on a gentle outside edge) rather than thinking about a step at all. Then push off with the right foot and keep this new free foot (right foot) a little behind you as you go onto the edge and aim to keep shoulders over hips but keeping the check till you do the 3 turn.

So I'm facing left with my hips, forward with my face, and I'm stepping forward? But doesn't that include completely going against ALL the speed you've built in the back crossovers? Won't you need to grind stop before you can do that?

[Sessy]

LOL! Please, don't say the doctor word again, foot or otherwise. :lol: I've spent about half my childhood in hospitals, and then a year of my teenage years too, and I'm still spending every summer holiday in one. I'd like to avoid seeing doctors if not absolutely vitally necessary. :lol:


The left leg is also checked back across the path of the tracing (behind the skating foot - with leg straight and toes pointed!;) ) (or since you are going backwards I guess it is across where the tracing will be when the blade gets there). Don't release the check til well after you've stepped forward onto the outside edge. This helps to stop any falling off the outside edge. And then you can release it as you do the actual 3 turn which gives you the snap into the spin. I'm trying to go through the motions on the floor as I write this to see if this is really what I do - it would be easier to do on ice! Husband is giving me very funny looks:lol: Unfortunately I won't be on the ice again for a week as our rink has it's 'open competition' all next week.

I'm trying to picture this in my head including letting my mind predict what the gravity and stuff would be like and I do see where checking might be keeping me from falling off the edge. In fact I'm pretty sure it will.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Sessy]

Wait I think I get it now. Except the just putting the left foot down part.

[BatikatII]

The part I don't understand is what you want me to do... Especially this part:


So I'm facing left with my hips, forward with my face, and I'm stepping forward? But doesn't that include completely going against ALL the speed you've built in the back crossovers? Won't you need to grind stop before you can do that?


I know it seems like that and indeed when people start they often do grind to a halt before turning the spin but again when you look at the logic and the physics involved you will see why it's not necessary to stop and why it all works to help the spin.

Remember that you have gone in on a RBI edge with arms and left leg checked across the body to the right. All the momentum is now held in check and we need to keep it there until we need it to initiate the spin (i.e at the point of the LFO3 turn) therefore we need to keep the body position and the check until then or we lose all that momentum.

Now we are travelling backwards on that RBI edge but there is no reason why we can't step back the way we've come. Try it off ice - walk backwards a few steps, now hold the position on one leg and then step forward onto the other leg - you've changed direction of travel (backwards to forwards) but you are still facing the same way!)

Ok not quite so simple on the ice but if we keep everything back across the right side of the body we are preventing the momentum from pulling us off balance when we step forward. The small step to forward keeps the centre of gravity from moving too far and therfore we dont' need to move anything else to compensate.

As long as you step directly from the RBI to the LFO edge without any two footing in between you simply take all that momentum with you to use in the spin. (Don't worry it took me years as I said to get this and you can already spin without the windup so it should be awesome once you can use the wind up but it will take practice and you may feel it gets worse before it gets better as you will have to unlearn what you do at the moment).

You do need to practice staying on a clean RBI edge without going on to the toepicks which will slow you down, but if you do end up scraping on the toepicks at first don't worry since just about everybody does to start with.

You only release the check and therefore all the momentum when you want to initiate the spin with the 3 turn. You can hold the LFO edge for ages before you release the check and go into the spin if you want and it is good to practice holding it to start with to get comfortable with it and the step into it.


Hope this helps to explain it!:D

[Sessy]

Sounds like it makes sense. I'll definately give it a try! :lol: :bow:

I watched the vids in slomo myself yesterday (set the media player to play in slomo) and you're right, my scratch spin seems to do a backward 3-turn AFTER the forward 3-turn and then only start spinning. I'm beginning to wonder myself how come I spin. I've no idea why I'm doing it but it sure is counterproductive. Explains why my "camel" was better than my scratch for a long time though. You can do a camel on a left outside edge more easily than a scratch. I wonder if that's also why it's far easyer for me to spin holding my free leg behind me than before me?

Thanks Batikat! (btw, where IS that name from?)

[BatikatII]

Sounds like it makes sense. I'll definately give it a try! :lol: :bow:

I watched the vids in slomo myself yesterday (set the media player to play in slomo) and you're right, my scratch spin seems to do a backward 3-turn AFTER the forward 3-turn and then only start spinning. I'm beginning to wonder myself how come I spin. I've no idea why I'm doing it but it sure is counterproductive. Explains why my "camel" was better than my scratch for a long time though. You can do a camel on a left outside edge more easily than a scratch. I wonder if that's also why it's far easyer for me to spin holding my free leg behind me than before me?

Thanks Batikat! (btw, where IS that name from?)


Well in fact for a scratch spin you are spinning on a slight back inside edge which is why it looks a bit like a back 3 turn after the forward one. It is the bit between your wind up on the back crossovers to the point where you do the LFO3 that needs work! For a back spin you spin on a back outside edge.

I wonder if your camel was better because for that you keep the free leg up and so it doesn't come round with such force and destabilise you. Havent' seen it so can't really tell.

The position of your free leg may be dependant on where the rest of your weight is - if it directly over the skate where it should be, then it should be possible to spin with free leg almost anywhere but if your upper body is not perpendicular over the skate then you may find the free leg position having to compensate.

Batikat is a joining of the two words batik and ikat and was my trading name when I was importing and selling textiles from Indonesia. I still do talks on Indonesian textiles to interested groups and have a huge personal collection of Indonesian textiles.

[Sessy]

perpenwhat? :lol:

[BatikatII]

perpenwhat? :lol:

straight up!:lol:

[Sessy]

But but but if your body is straight over your leg. And say the other leg is sticking out. How come you don't fall over to where the leg is sticking out? Cuz then the center of gravity isn't going to be over the skate?

[sunjoy]

1) Can I quote the passage from your original post where you talk about the biellmann->fall->lunge,jump,spin; to use in my blog? I think it really illustrates well how tough figure skating (and skaters) are.

2) Don't even *think* of using a live (sharp) dagger out on the ice. You can get practice ones made for theatre. If they are made of shiny plastic, even better, because then you can set it down on the ice without it freezing and getting stuck. If the trick that you do needs you to have a realistic weight-and-feel to the knife, you can buy practice blades from martial arts supply stores. Here's one I use in the US: http://edges2.com/ (top of the line, meant for practice, not show). If you email them (the store's staff, not the blades, lol), they might be able to tell you of a store in .NL

[BatikatII]

But but but if your body is straight over your leg. And say the other leg is sticking out. How come you don't fall over to where the leg is sticking out? Cuz then the center of gravity isn't going to be over the skate?

OK OK I guess I was being a bit simplisitic. Obviously there are positions where your upper body is not straight up, like in a layback but the curved spine ensures the centre of gravity remains over the skate.

My physics is not quite up to the task here :lol: but from experience it is much easier to spin, in a scratch spin, if you are standing up with your weight over the skate. To gain speed you just pull in tighter - the smaller you make yourself and the more upright the faster you will spin. If you aren't upright then the spin will travel and or you will fall off the edge. Any bending at the waist will pull you off centre because your head and upper body are heavy.

When you first go into the spin you keep your skating knee bent and I would guess it is the centrifugal (centripetal?) force that keeps you there even while the other leg is held out. As long as your centre of balance is over the skate I think your own bodyweight allows you to spin even with free leg not yet pulled in. Your leg is light compared to the whole of the rest of your body. Also to start with your arms are out too and this counterbalances. Plus because you are on a slight outside edge then your weight is slightly over your left hip rather than straight down the midline of the body.

Think of it like a cantilever effect. There's enough bodyweight over the skate, that the leg's effect is negligible as far as pulling you over. Maybe a bettter physysicist could explain it....my son has aready told me my bit about momentum is not quite right. The reason you can step from backwards to forwards without slowing down is simply to do with conservation of momentum - as long as you step directly from one foot to the other, the momentum you've acquired stays with you as it has nowhere to go. People tend to lose it because they drag backwards on their toepicks or have both feet on the ice together. The movement of the arms does allow the momentum to be translated into a spin though, so I still think my reasoning was valid!!!!
:lol:

[Isk8NYC]

Batikat is a joining of the two words batik and ikat and was my trading name when I was importing and selling textiles from Indonesia. I still do talks on Indonesian textiles to interested groups and have a huge personal collection of Indonesian textiles.Totally OT: I have a small paper mache' statue of a cat sitting on a stump, holding a fishing pole. The entire piece is a royal blue with batik decorations all over. I'll have to take a picture for you to see.

[Sessy]

It should be her avatar ;)

Back when I was making costumes for medieval fair I was a total fan of batik. It's easyer than dyeing material just like that and it's easyer than finding material with the design you need/want.

[BatikatII]

Totally OT: I have a small paper mache' statue of a cat sitting on a stump, holding a fishing pole. The entire piece is a royal blue with batik decorations all over. I'll have to take a picture for you to see.


I'd love to see it. I was intending to use a batiked cat as a logo but never got round to it.

Sessy - do you mean 'tye-dye' rather than batik? Batik is where you use a wax resist to make a design and then dye it. I have pieces in my collection that took the maker years to produce as they are so intricate! Though of course there are simpler versions too.

For lovely mottled effects on fabric that is extremely easy I use the jam jar dyeing method i.e just shove the piece of material in a jam jar, scrunched up tight and pour the dye over. Can then overdye in a different colour too. Or space dyeing in a cat litter tray (big deep square plastic tray). Lay fabric in and then pour different colour dyes over different parts of the fabric. Such fun!!!!:lol:

[Sessy]

What we did was just stamp the wax on with a pattern cut out of an old car tire. It was not supposed to look tye-died or anything like that. It was supposed to look medieval, and they really loved repetitive patterns in the middle ages. For a peasant or simple folk costume, you actually want it to look rough and even amateuristically hand-made to some degree. So you get really, really coarse and thick-threaded materials and those are usually either very expensive (we didn't want to spend so much money), or they're cheap on a market in town, but then they're meant for couches and curtains and the like. So they don't come in the patterns you want.

Also, considering you usually wore it to a role playing game in some muddy field where you'd be "battling" eachother, or to an equally muddy fair, it just needed to look good from a distance. Most the costumes weren't even hemmed, but just stitched with zigzag. The advantage of that was that from the outside, it looks hand-made because of the large space between the stitches.

[BatikatII]

Sounds like great fun Sessy. I'd never really thought of batik as being a particularly quick process before but I love the idea of stamping on the wax with old car tyres. :D

Where on earth did you find car tyres to cut up and what did you cut them up with? I am curious because I recently completed a 4 year part time college course in creative textiles but never did anything quite like that! That was a brilliant idea.

[Sessy]

Eh, we call them stanleymessen, stanley knives or something? They're the sort of knives that you usually use to cut cardboard and thin wood with precision, the kind you cut on zink plates with, the kind you never EVER put your fingers in the cutting path of just in case you slip because they're so razor sharp. They're like the extremely sturdy, heavy-metal, undestroyable twin brothers of hobby knives.

I'm not even sure they were car tires actually but they did look like big versions of the inside of bike tires so I think they were car tires. Our crafts teacher at middle school had them in huge amounts, I just "borrowed" some, I don't know where he got it. It's as big a mistery as where he got human sculls and 900 empty glass bottles of coca cola. I think he just collected whatever the students would bring him. Cuz I brought him a fazant without a tail once and he took that too. But I think you can make stamps out of clay just as easily, we did that in basic school and I'm guessing that would work too.

BTW, in school we did something like that as well. We used wax crayons, with those you'd write on paper, then you'd dye the paper with watercolors. I don't know if that would work on material though.

[Sessy]

Here's the promised slomo's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MJ2CGxxPhQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-Ed0i5rJNo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuBqeLb0-84

[BatikatII]

OK I can't resist but do bear in mind that I am not claiming I can do any of these jumps! (at least not well) and also that almost everyone does them like this to start with. I am just telling you what I see and things to work on.

Firstly you have great attack and speed!:bow: For the toeloop (I haven't looked at the salchow) if you slow it down even further to stop motion effect (i.e press pause and then play/pause alternately and stop at the point just after you have picked in, you will notice that just after picking in, both feet (and body) are pointing to the left. This means that you are turning on your toepick before you jump. Also the right foot should actually be pointing to the right and drawn in towards the picking foot on a back outside edge (took me years to get this down and still can't always do it right) (like a back pivot). If you continue on you will see that you are turned almost completely around 180 degrees, before the picking foot leaves the ice which essentially means the jump itself is more of a 3 jump. This is often called a toe-waltz.

If you look at other people's video's you will see this is very common, (but not correct!)

You have great speed and power and attitude so once you are back on ice I think you will get a really good toe-loop pretty fast. Practising back pivots really helps to get the feel of what the right foot should be doing on the entry. :D

[doubletoe]

Unfortunately, Batikat is right about the toeloops. I didn't realize my toeloop takeoff was cheated until I was landing doubles, and boy was it painful to be told that they weren't going to count! As a matter of fact, at Adult Nationals two weeks ago, all 3 of my *single* toeloops were downgraded due to pre-rotation and given zero credit! This happened even though I knew it was an issue and I was focusing very hard on not letting my foot turn on the pick. So yeah, better to fix the technique now, before it gets too deeply ingrained in muscle memory. :frus:

[Sessy]

I've never done a pivot
how do you do a pivot? we don't get them in class


doubletoe, but how can it be that you can do a 2toe (although cheated) and not a 1toe?


I didn't realize HOW ugly they were. It actually seems they got worse since december, which is probably true, cuz at some point I actually lost the toeloop. BTW our group teacher picks, then rotates on her toepick a half, then steps over on her right foot when she demonstrates a toe-loop. I've actually argued with a girl from my class a few weeks ago whether or not the toeloop was a half-rotation jump or a whole rotation one.
Anyway at least now I know why I lost the toeloop back then and what to do to fix it. Draw it on on an outside edge, yiiikes that's gonna feel very off.

And I've been trying to find a video of a good, uncheated double toeloop or single toeloop but they're NOWHERE! So PLEASE IF ANYBODY CAN HELP ME GET ONE!!!! Even Joubert cheats a half off his toeloops in combination...
I've got the full collection of jumps in avi from different sources, but only a triple toeloop. And the timing of that is just very off compared to a single. Not on youtube please, I'd like to be able to see it frame by frame, so downloadable...

[jskater49]

I've never done a pivot
And I've been trying to find a video of a good, uncheated double toeloop or single toeloop but they're NOWHERE! So PLEASE IF ANYBODY CAN HELP ME GET ONE!!!! Even Joubert cheats a half off his toeloops in combination...
...

This is a common controversy in skatefan discussions....many will argue that EVERYONE turns some on the ice, it's just a matter of not being egregious. And the same two people will look at the same slow mo and argue whether or not it is cheated.

I think it is safe to say if someone can notice the turn on the ice in real life - that's a bad cheat ;-)

j

[Sessy]

Ok, I'll take a cheated one too. Just a double or single one, not a triple.

:lol:

(BAD Sessy! Get back to work!)

[BatikatII]

I've never done a pivot
how do you do a pivot? we don't get them in class
...
not sure it's possible to explain - you need to ask a coach to demo one. However you can just practice the toeloop entry. Do it as a walkthrough first.
Do the RFI 3 real slow then pick in but not too far behind or too agressively and DONT JUMP. Instead keep facing the same way and ease your weight back onto the picking foot. Now look at your right foot (still in front of you) and turn the foot so your toes are to your right and you are on the outside edge of the blade. Now try and draw this foot to the left, (heel leading), keeping on the outside edge, til the whole foot has passed the midline of your body. This is about the point at which you would want to kick through (heel leading) if you were actually jumping!

It will feel very odd at first!



I didn't realize HOW ugly they were. It actually seems they got worse since december, which is probably true, cuz at some point I actually lost the toeloop. BTW our group teacher picks, then rotates on her toepick a half, then steps over on her right foot when she demonstrates a toe-loop. I've actually argued with a girl from my class a few weeks ago whether or not the toeloop was a half-rotation jump or a whole rotation one.
Anyway at least now I know why I lost the toeloop back then and what to do to fix it. Draw it on on an outside edge, yiiikes that's gonna feel very off.

...

As for the half or full rev jump. I think many people would say it's not a half rev like 3 jump, nor a whole rev like loop but something a little in between. The point being that while most people probably do turn a little on their toepick and the front foot may be a little to the left (heel leading!) before leaving the ground, you should ensure your body is not prerotated.

If your whole body is facing your direction of travel before you take off then it is a half rev jump and it is not a toeloop.

Having said that I think some coaches do teach it a bit like that just to get students jumping and then work on the finer points later.

[doubletoe]

As for the half or full rev jump. I think many people would say it's not a half rev like 3 jump, nor a whole rev like loop but something a little in between. The point being that while most people probably do turn a little on their toepick and the front foot may be a little to the left (heel leading!) before leaving the ground, you should ensure your body is not prerotated.

If your whole body is facing your direction of travel before you take off then it is a half rev jump and it is not a toeloop.

That used to be enough, and it's what my coach always told me, so I got good at keeping my torso facing backwards for takeoff. But now they look at your foot to make sure it doesn't pivot to face forward before takeoff, so I don't get away with that anymore! Interestingly, Amber Corwin (U.S. competitive skater who retired last year) turns her head to face forward on her triple toeloop takeoffs, but her picking foot does not turn forward so she did not have them downgraded. Weird, huh?!

[BatikatII]

That used to be enough, and it's what my coach always told me, so I got good at keeping my torso facing backwards for takeoff. But now they look at your foot to make sure it doesn't pivot to face forward before takeoff, so I don't get away with that anymore! Interestingly, Amber Corwin (U.S. competitive skater who retired last year) turns her head to face forward on her triple toeloop takeoffs, but her picking foot does not turn forward so she did not have them downgraded. Weird, huh?!

Ah-ha! Thanks for that info. I will take extra care over my foot now. I'm still not sure if I manage to keep it turned the right way before take off. I guess I need someone to video me!:D

[Sessy]

not sure it's possible to explain - you need to ask a coach to demo one.

Uh, sure, if you tell me what it is called in Dutch... :lol:
I'll just ask on a dutch forum. :lol:


What's a midline?

[Sessy]

I just asked on a dutch skating forum yesterday and people have no idea what a pivot is so far...
could you maybe post a video? pretty please?

[BatikatII]

The only video I had of me doing a pivot was in my camcorder when it was nicked during a competition (I trust not by a skater but more probably from the public session afterwards).

It's basically where you stick the toepick of one skate in the ice and the other skate circles around.

So back outside pivot - stick left toepick in the ice. Place right skate on an outside edge and move it anticlockwise around you. (like the entry to a toeloop;) :lol: ):!: Yes, the right foot really does have to be turned out that much!

If you have ever watched pairs skaters doing a 'death spiral' the guy is (usually) doing a back outside pivot as the girl goes into it.

[Sessy]

Ahhhh I get what you mean now. Gee I'm not sure I can get that much of a turnout. I've not got any turnout at all to be honest...

[Sessy]

I tried the pivot on rollers. Completely impossible for me to turn out my foot that way. Maybe it'll be better on ice skates, I don't know, sometimes things like that are.

Oh yeah I filmed myself roller skating today. My mohawks on rollers have all the errors my mohawks on ice used to have when I just started doing them (like staring at the ice). Funny how bad habits come back to bite you in the rear even when you thought you killed 'em. But other than that, I thought I rollerskated worse than I do.

As you'll notice, I got rid of most of the "bouncy" thing I had in my crossovers at the competition!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v35Glf3HV20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls_l9MLy6lM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzMeciUwj2Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbXW3oHsVKU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyWrYuj_E-w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O7QTmUV6v4
(that 3-turn is jumped cuz the wheels don't do the pivoting or whatever thing cuz the skates are cheap)

[doubletoe]

Ahhhh I get what you mean now. Gee I'm not sure I can get that much of a turnout. I've not got any turnout at all to be honest...

Since you have your knees bent, you don't really need open hips for the pivot. The deeper you can bend the right knee, and the more you can open out your left shoulder and look over your left shoulder, the easier it will be. It's a fun move! :)

[BatikatII]

I've got no turnout either - not a hope of ever doing a spreadeagle - but as double toe says, for a pivot it is only the foot that needs to turn out and the knee bend makes it possible. In fact knee bend makes almost everything possible. If you ever find you can't do something in skating - try a deeper kneebend!

To restate the old adage about trying again, just for skating:- 'if at first you don't succeed - try a deeper kneebend!':lol:

[Sessy]

It's just not working on rollers. I imagine the big rubber stop at the front is generating much more friction than a toepick though.

Anyway it's a good description nonetheless, I think I got what you mean. I did three toeloops on rollers this way and I landed 2 clean. On rollers! I mean really. 8O I could probably over-rotate them even if I wanted. They were SOOO much easyer to do this way. Thanks! I'm thinking this will be a piece of cake on ice with the much lighter figure skates on.
Still picking to the side is weird. I'm doing the toeloop from a mohawk now, it's kind of okay that way, but from a 3-turn I just know I won't be able to pick to the side - I can do some semblance of a 3-turn on rollers (non-pivoting), jumping the turn a bit, but I just can't imagine how to pick to the side after a 3-turn.
But then there's no rule that says I've gotta do the toeloop from a 3-turn right?