Parallel Parking and the bronze freeskate

[dani]

Hey everyone!!

I was reading about the requirements for the (US) Adult Bronze freestyle test. I am most worried about the backspin. In fact most people that I talk to about the Bronze level complain about that spin.

In researching, it looks to me like I only *really* have to do 2 revs because that will simply be a quality error and the rest of the program can easily override that. However, if I don't even make that, I can still have one *serious* error and pass if the remaining program is really strong. Does anyone know, is that really true? I plan on skating with lots of speed, huge jumps, advanced footwork, and a nice scratch spin. The sit will be ok. Of course I will continue working on my backspin, but should it prevent me from testing if the rest is really good?

I was describing this to a friend and it reminded me of my driving test and parallel parking. Most people failed it and if everything else was fien, still got their license. I thought that was a little humorous and that I should share the observation ;-)

Hugs!
Dani

[Designdiva]

Dani,

My bronze test included huge jumps, advanced steps, an advanced spiral sequence, a low sit-spin and two jump combinations, including lutz-loop and it *still* took me three tries to pass the Bronze free test. The first try, my backspin was lousy. The second test, I held it for three revs but the judges wanted it reskated. That was too much pressure for me and I fell twice in the reskate. In both tests, the judges comments read: "Backspin needs work" and "Would pass if not for backspin."

However, I have seen some tests where backspin was great and tester fell on waltz-toe yet still passed. In fact, on my fourth try, I skate horrendously, yet passed.

So I suppose it just depends on your judges. Judges in my corner of the USFSA are extremely picky. I remember my pre-pre moves comments said "skates like a beginner." Even though I passed the test, I thought, Well, duh, I *am* a beginner.

[dcden]

I agree with DesignDiva... though there have been exceptions, the standard with my club is that you must complete _all_ the requirements... don't count on extra difficulty in certain areas making up for a missed required element. One of the skaters in my area failed to pass the Silver test 3 times because of the camel spin requirement, though the rest of the skating was very smooth and definitely Silver caliber. As for me, I was asked to reskate my sit spin on my gold test... I didn't "miss" it in the program, but the judges felt I wasn't low enough. Yes, the judges can sometimes be picky (I made the correction on the reskate).

"However, I have seen some tests where backspin was great and tester fell on waltz-toe yet still passed."
This is exactly what happened on my bronze test from about 3 years ago! :lol:

[1lutz2klutz]

Don't try to out guess the judges! If you know an element is iffy, then wait until you're sure about it. My coach won't let us even put in our test papers until he's 100% certain we have all the elements plus a margin for "neves" errors. A fellow adult skater had to retest his Gold 6 times, simply because the axel was 1/4 cheated. He had the same question you do- the written standards say you can miss one element but still pass. The judge's comment was-"If you don't have the axel for the gold test, you don't pass-period." The backspin may be the"do or die" element of the Bronze test. At the same test session that my friend finally passed his Gold, another adult passed Gold after what looked like a miserable skate. He was choppy and stepped out of most elements, but when he was asked to reskate his lutz and his axel, he hit both and passed. I had just said to another skater standing next to me that he would have had trouble competing against a Bronze program with that Gold program, and she agreed, but the judges passed him because of what they considered the key elements. The September 2 deadline has already passed, so there's really no benefit to tring to skate before you're ready.

[sk8pics]

It's interesting to read these replies and different points of view. I failed my pre-bronze test once and then passed it on my second try, even though I really had only 2 revolutions on my one-foot spin. Some coaches (and the first judge) had the opinion that you have to actually complete all the test elements. One coach told my coach and me that that's especially true on the pass/retry tests which don't have numeric scores for the different elements. She said that on the higher tests, the judges have more leeway. But the second judge that I had felt that the rest of the test was good enough, so she passed me. (And I was extremely happy!) It was ironic that I really did not want to take the test because I figured I had no chance of passing. I only took it because my coach wanted me to, and he really talked me into it. Now I'm glad! And I'm glad I listened to him.

So, maybe the moral of the story is to do what your coach wants you to do. It worked for me. On the other hand, if you'll be very upset at not passing, maybe it's better to wait. Like 1lutzklutz said, the deadline for getting grandfathered into the levels has passed, so there's no need to rush.

What does your coach have to say, and does he/she have experience with the adult test structure? (Mine didn't, which was part of our dilemma.)

Pat

[dani]

Hi everyone!

I am taking my bronze moves this next Monday. My rush on the freestyle test is that I really want to compete at AN this year! I figure I will have to test in November to meet the deadline. Hopefully in 6 weeks I will have my 3 revs - I have done it once.

Hugs!
Danielle

[MissIndigo]

Good luck with the moves test--do let us know how it goes. I'm hoping to test Bronze moves before Christmas, and freestyle...sometime.:)

[dcden]

Originally posted by 1lutz2klutz
A fellow adult skater had to retest his Gold 6 times, simply because the axel was 1/4 cheated. He had the same question you do- the written standards say you can miss one element but still pass. The judge's comment was-"If you don't have the axel for the gold test, you don't pass-period." The backspin may be the"do or die" element of the Bronze test.

I totally agree that there are certain "do or die" elements on certain tests. The backspin seems to be such an element on Bronze. Based on what I've seen and experienced, the camel and spin combo are the DOD elements in Silver, and the Axel the DOD element in Gold.

[kar5162]

There definitely do seem to be DOD elements on each test and I would agree that the backspin is the Bronze element. You may be able to get by with a short spin if you go into it with confidence and you look balanced and spinning fine and just check out of it a rotation short. The problem with a lot of bronze tests is there's a struggle to hold a wobbly back spin for 2 rotations and that just usually doesn't cut it. Try experimenting with different ways to enter the spin (I beleive it says entrance optional) and placement in your program. When I took Preliminary I did the backspin as my first element - just push backspin. Many people do it at the end, but once I was moving, I just couldn't convince my body it wanted to do that. Remember to skate with confidence - it helps a lot - especially at the bronze level where quite often people look rather terrified, especially when attempting the back spin.

[MissIndigo]

Originally posted by kar5162
Try experimenting with different ways to enter the spin (I beleive it says entrance optional) and placement in your program.

So technically, could you do a backspin as part of a combination? For example, forward spin/backspin, sit spin/backspin, or camel/backspin? How about a backspin in an attitude position?

[flo]

Hi,
If it says backspin, you can not do it in combination. They are very picky about that. I agree that you should have nothing iffy in the program - required moves or additional elements.

[kar5162]

Originally posted by MissIndigo
So technically, could you do a backspin as part of a combination? For example, forward spin/backspin, sit spin/backspin, or camel/backspin? How about a backspin in an attitude position?

I don't know. If you email the USFSA I'm sure you'll get a response. The test paper says "One foot back spin, entry optional (minimum 3 revolutions in position)". I would guess it doesn't have to be in the back scratch position, but I'm not sure the judges would go for the attitude or the spin combinations. I would think you'd be safe going from a FI3, a pivot, and possible a (short) 2 foot to one foot spin though.

[jazzpants]

I'm not sure either! I think it's safer to go with the one foot upright backspin (doesn't have to be scratch but it should be upright...) The attitude spin might be pushing it (though from reading other posts regarding the back layback position I often wonder WHY anyone would want to do that, since I think it's hard to do than a plain upright backspin.) Same w/back sit spin... :P

Cheers,
jazzpants

[AnnM]

It really depends on the mindset of the particular judging panel. Prior to taking my Bronze test I was in the same predicament you are in Dani. Everything else in the program was great, but my backspin was only 70% there. I too had read the fine print regarding 2 revolutions/quality errors, etc. My coach and I decided that I'd go for the test anyways. On test day, the first backspin (w/in the program) was held for three 1/2 revolutions. HOWEVER, the judges had me reskate the backspin three more times, because they wanted to see all the revolutions on a back outside edge. My last and final attempt barely had three revs, but whatever revs I had, they were all on the BO edge. End result was that I passed, but the backspin was definitely the "do or die" element. I had also had an unexpected sit spin disaster that day, but the judges didn't even ask me to reskate that move.

[LoopLoop]

I'm surprised that they had you reskate the spin THREE times, because the rules specify one attempt at a reskate (with a warmup attempt first if the skater desires).

[kar5162]

Originally posted by LoopLoop
I'm surprised that they had you reskate the spin THREE times, because the rules specify one attempt at a reskate (with a warmup attempt first if the skater desires).

They do, but how strictly it's enforced seems to be dependent on your judges. In my area it's incredibly rare to get to reskate anything on moves, but I've seen a one Senior test where the skater did 5 attempts at a double-double before landing one and then the judges clapped and the skater passed. I've also seen tests where the skater did the camel-back camel in the Novice tests several times and then passed.

[KJD]

Wow! That almost never happens in our area. You get one reskate of up to 2 elements if the rest of the skate was pretty good and a passing mark on the elements you missed would put you over to passing. I have never seen an exception.

On a different note regarding the tests, does anyone know what the absolute deadline is for passing to qualify for a level for AN? I have to take my Adult Gold Moves and FS since I didn't get to it before Sept. 2. Thanks.

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by LoopLoop
I'm surprised that they had you reskate the spin THREE times, because the rules specify one attempt at a reskate (with a warmup attempt first if the skater desires).

I was at AnnM's test session for Bronze FS and I can assure you that they did allow her to reskate 3 times on the backspins. (Everything else, though was perfect!!!)

On the Silver FS level though, they only allow TWO retries!!! The DOD element is the spin combo.

AnnM... no, I did not take the Bronze FS test in August. I am just not ready to take it given the backspin is not quite on the BO edge yet. And he refuses to sign the test forms unless he knows that I'm ready for the test.

Cheers,
jazzpants

[Terri C]

Dani,
If I were you, I would not take any chances and make sure that the backspin is 110% clean before testing! I added the extra 10% due to the nerves we all get ( as I call it the "Oh s$%^ feeling ) when we test.

The last time I tested the Bronze free ( round 4) was last January! Even though I was relaxed in front of the judjes, I didn't pass. One of the reasons was that my backscratch was not on a clean outside edge.

I didn't try to play "Beat The Clock" either this summer with a not low enough sit and no 3rd single. And my coaches will not sign test forms until this happens!:roll:

[singerskates]

You adult skaters in the US have it easy. We Canadians have to do the same test as the kids. This means we have to do all the jumps from waltz jump to flip, two foot spin, forward spin, sit spin and back spin. WE also have to do alternating three turns, outside and inside. Forward and backward stroking. And that's not even the program part. In our program we must have a toe loop/toe loop or higher combination.

I have a salchow/loop combo and a flip/toe combo, a loop, toe loop, waltz jump and lutz in my program along with an outside to inside spiral which covers most of the ice, two footwork sections consisting of open mohawks, three turns forword and back outside and inside and toe work, forward inside spiral, back crosscuts left and right, back pivot and other stuff. I want to make sure I pass my Canadian prelim test. That is why I'm aiming to exceed the test standards. We have no adult Canadian tests in Canada.

We have to have 5 jumps and three spins in our programs. And we get only one retry.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by singerskates
You adult skaters in the US have it easy. We Canadians have to do the same test as the kids. So do we in the UK. There is, of course, a case to be made for saying "Of course, we don't need to do dumbed-down tests over here!" :twisted: But perhaps it wouldn't be polite......;)

[flo]

I have taken USFSA standard and adult tests. There's nothing "easy" about the adult skating tests in the US. I just took the adult pairs tests, and they were not significantly different from the standard tests. We may have it "better" in that we have a track which attempts to be designed for who we are - Adults - but this should in no way be taken as "easy". There's also nothing "easy" about the way the adult program has come about. It has taken a lot of hard work, and will continue to do so. Also since you're in Canada, you do have the opportunity to come and compete with us at a couple of the events, like the North American Adult Invitational. Also is you look at you program's testing, there's probably as much variation in judging as there is anywhere. The three and four tries on a re-skate is very much the exception here. I have also tested at clubs where the standard is more difficult. You're going to have that anywhere. If you want an adult program such as what is offered by the USFSA, start, and keep working for it.

[lizzz]

There is nothing easy about testing in any country. I've tested in both the US and Canada (although not very far yet.....) As an adult learning to skate, just taking a test is an achievement. It can be a nerve wracking experience for some, but feels great when you pass. All tests have their difficult points. Most people by the time they test however, try to be above the minumun standard so their solos reflect a higher level than what is required.
Personally I don't' think we should engage in who has it rougher, etc but just support each other the best we can. Sometimes it is mighty lonely out there as an adult learning to skate. I appreciate the support I get here when I do post from everyone.
Singer, you might want to check the rule book for the prelim test. I don't think there are 3 turns in the test unles something just changed at the last AGM. But good for you for getting them down. I just hate that left inside one. I never seem to practise it since there is no jump associated with it!
Happy skating!:)

[Raine]

I passed my Bronze test this past summer without a true backspin. The backspin I did in my program consisted of three revs on a forward inside edge. I was surprised I wasn't asked to reskate it. It was the first move of the program and spotlighted by dramatic music, so I pretty nervous about it, knowing that I couldn't do it correctly. The judge noted that it was on the wrong edge, but was perhaps generous in passing me?

--Raine

[iceskaterdawn]

The backspin cannot be done from any type of combination spin. Early in the summer before my backspin clicked (all of a sudden one day I found the right spot and was consistently getting 9 to 10 rotations on a back outside edge), I emailed the USFSA to ask them since it said entry optional if I could do it out of a fwd spin. The answer was no. It needed to be done in isolation, but I could enter it how I wanted. Even though it doesn't specifically say this the judges in my area tend to want the foot crossed in front and the entrance and exit to be on one foot. For me the hardest element was the sit spin. The judge said I had a beautiful back spin, but said I needed to have a lower sit spin, and more speed throughout the program. I passed by the deadline, so that was all I cared about.

Dawn

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by dani
Hi everyone!

I am taking my bronze moves this next Monday. My rush on the freestyle test is that I really want to compete at AN this year! I figure I will have to test in November to meet the deadline. Hopefully in 6 weeks I will have my 3 revs - I have done it once.

Hugs!
Danielle

Good luck on your tests! I'm doing the same myself - passed Gold MIF's two weeks ago, and will test Gold Freestyle in two weeks (I'm not allowed to compete at AN unless I pass the AG tests). When I did my bronze free I entered my backspin from a forward to backwards pivot. The judges here didn't seem to have any problems with that, and it helped me get the necessary speed and proper position for the spin.

Also, somebody asked the deadline for AN - it's Jan 15th. So any tests you need to have need to be passed before then. (Taking into consideration any need to retest...)

[dani]

Hi everyone!! These last couple of posts are very timely. I passed my moves and I am taking my bronze freestyle test on November 24th. I can do a 3 rev backspin maybe 10 percent of the time and my skates are so broken down that I have a real tendency to fall to the inside on my sitspin.

However, I feel a little better once I realized that if I can do my spins in isolation I can still pass! Is that a bad way to look at it? I will try them in my program and if they work, great! If not, I do them in isolation because of my 2 retries and life will be good.

Does anyone know what kind of score I would get, for example, a slow backspin on an outside edge in which I lose my balance in the end and put my free leg down? I am really hoping to score well on my jumps - my salchow and loop have lots of height and reasonable speed at this time. My toe loop has good speed, also. My front spin may travel but will have 10 or so revs to it in a scratch position. So, I am just hoping that I get lucky and failing that that I can pull everything else up.

In case I fail, does anyone know of a test center planned in the beginning of January in Florida or an easy to fly to place like Atlanta or Dallas?

Hugs!
Danielle

[KJD]

Dani,
Dallas Figure Skating Club has a test session on January 5th - designed specifically to make sure that any adults trying to qualify before the 15th have a chance to do so.

Kate

[jenlyon60]

Georgia Figure Skating Club has a 5 Jan test session posted on their web site (http://www.gafsc.org/testing.htm)

[dani]

Thanks!! Either one of those may work, should I need it.

Would there be an issue if I bought my own test session? In other words, if I could get the judges to agree to come in and I rented the rink, is that allowed? That has been my other thought.

Hugs!
Danielle

[skaternum]

Originally posted by dani
Thanks!!
Would there be an issue if I bought my own test session? In other words, if I could get the judges to agree to come in and I rented the rink, is that allowed? That has been my other thought.

Only if you can get your club to agree to this situation. All test sessions are run a USFSA club, so the test chair of your club would have to agree. I don't think ours would because of the additional time and effort she would have to put into it (test chairs do a lot of paperwork!), the loss of control over who comes to judge, as well as the whole "fairness" thing. I don't think she'd want to set that precedent.

But why are you making Plan B? Plan A is for you to pass! :)

[dani]

I was thinking of some of those issues. And I would personally worry about the appearance of part of it. I mean would they really want to fail me if I paid for everything? I would probably worry about that.

I so hope I pass! My back and sit spins are maybe 10 percent elements right now. Of course I do have 2 weeks ;-)

Hugs!
Danielle

[Elsy2]

Dani,

It might be worth it to talk to your test chair about your situation. An adult Bronze test requires only one Silver or higher judge. If you have a local judge that would agree to come in, and your rink agreed to give you the 15 minutes or so you would need to warm up and test.....this might work for you.

You have to remember that judges do get reimbursed for travel expenses, but often local judges come in and don't ask for reimbursement. So the expense involves the ice time, the judges travel expense, and hospitality (lunch)......

We once had a session with one Gold judge, and two adults testing their Bronze......

We sometimes schedule low level sessions with one judge. If there is enough testers, your club may agree to do this. The kids can test up through Preliminary moves and FS with one Silver or Gold judge.

I agree that you shouldn't be worried about Plan B as yet.....;)

[roogu]

Originally posted by singerskates
I want to make sure I pass my Canadian prelim test. That is why I'm aiming to exceed the test standards.
We have to have 5 jumps and three spins in our programs. And we get only one retry.

Umm, the requirements for the prelim freeskate program is a minimum of 3 diff. jumps and 2 diff spins. You don't "have to have" 5 and 3.

Even at the junior bronze level, it's still only 4 single jumps, not 5. 2 spins again. But those are just the minimum requirements ..... it's always an advantage to have more.

[singerskates]

Is it posible to pass two tests at once; prelim & junior bronze? I don't think I can do that but I'm just curious?

[Lee]

You *could* possibly register to take them both in the same test session, but the Jr. Bronze would be *conditional* on passing the Prelim. If you had one part of the Prelim test, you could take the 2nd part and have one or both parts of the Jr. Bronze as conditional tests, but you must have the lower test completely passed before attempting the higher. And yes, you'd have to skate the program twice.

[sk8er1964]

I took three USFSA adult freestyle tests in one day. The club had no problem with that. Of course, I was exhausted at the end of the day!

[skaternum]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
I took three USFSA adult freestyle tests in one day. The club had no problem with that. Of course, I was exhausted at the end of the day!

My club may or may not allow "contingency testing," which is defined as taking multiple tests that are dependent on passing an earlier test taken at that same session. It depends entirely on how much ice time we have available. Ice is very expensive and just plain hard to get around here. Contingency testing is sometimes allowed under unusual circumstances, though. For example, we had a skater move here from overseas. Her freeskting tests from the other country aren't recognized here, so she had to take a lot of tests to qualify for regionals in time. I think she was allowed to take 3 per test session.

[flo]

I took my adult pair tests this way. It's pretty common around here.

[sk8er1964]

When I took my multiple tests, there were several MIF's/Freestyle testers. This was at the last test for regionals (and the last test before the Adult MIF's became mandatory). At that time, I checked with another club that had a test session, and they would have allowed it too. So maybe it is more common here too.

[kar5162]

It's pretty common here too. In fact I'm taking Pre-Bronze, Bronze, and Silver moves soon, all in one day. You pay for them anyway, but I do feel rather sorry for the judges if the skater isn't ready...seems just rude to waste their time since they're volunteering.

[jenlyon60]

My club, it's iffy...depends alot on how much time we have available and how many test candidates there are. It tends to be much more on the FS side of things than the dance side of things.