Help with "Shoulderless" 3-turns

[SkatingOnClouds]

Well, this came up in a previous thread recently, and at the time I commented that it was just another thing I didn't know that I didn't know.:roll:

I learned 3 turns 20+ years ago, back when figures were king. I learned to tuck my free foot nicely behind the skating heel, and the turn was always done as "head, arms & shoulders rotate while holding back the hips, then the down up down while releasing the hips to execute the turn, and the arms ended up back where one started.

Now coach has realised what I am doing. She said that for free skating I need to learn to do 3 turns without moving my arms and shoulders, that I should be turning from the waist. Only I can't feel it. I figure she means from the hips as the waist doesn't really do anything. She also said to squeeze the tops of my (very ample) thighs together.

I can't feel what my body needs to do to execute this turn without using my arms/shoulders at all, or without making the edge really swingy so that the turn happens anyway.

Any tips on this one?

[SkatingOnClouds]

Anybody???

[Team Arthritis]

welcome to the club! Those graceful IceDancers do this the best - you may want a lesson from a dance coach, especially one that specializes in low to intermediate levels as the high level coaches don't generally have to deal with our basic stuff.

The best lesson that I ever got on this was to try to lead with the skating arm like you are making a big showy turn. Now this isn't the final product, merely a way to get to the goal. To be more specific : Do this at a pretty good clip -> On a LFO3, pull your shoulders back and chin up leading with your left shoulder pull your arms in like ballet arms holding a big ball (2nd position??) and gazing not along line of travel but outside circle a little to the right with free leg back. Now staying straight up and down with NO waist bend start the twist to the left but feel lots of tension in the ankle and don't let it turn. Now sweep your arms out, R just back but left arm makes a big arc leading with the elbow until extended as you lift your left side of the chest (but dropping the left shoulder) {all the time pretending that I'm Barishnakov:halo: } let your gaze follow your L hand and just as the L arm straightens, release the ankle torque as you pull in the free leg. Now as the turn completes you have to catch and renew that tension in the ankle to serve as the check because you want your upper body square, NOT doing the check.

Hope my mental image helps http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/engel/k025.gif
Lyle

[Thin-Ice]

I learned 3 turns 20+ years ago, back when figures were king. I learned to tuck my free foot nicely behind the skating heel, and the turn was always done as "head, arms & shoulders rotate while holding back the hips, then the down up down while releasing the hips to execute the turn, and the arms ended up back where one started.

Now coach has realised what I am doing. She said that for free skating I need to learn to do 3 turns without moving my arms and shoulders, that I should be turning from the waist. Only I can't feel it. I figure she means from the hips as the waist doesn't really do anything. She also said to squeeze the tops of my (very ample) thighs together.

I can't feel what my body needs to do to execute this turn without using my arms/shoulders at all, or without making the edge really swingy so that the turn happens anyway.

I also learned figures, but am a stronger (though not strong) freestyler. My coach had me learn 3-turns both ways 1) with arms for stronger figures, and 2) without using my arms, which means you can use your upper body to do things during programs or as a way to set up for jumps. If you think of it as pressing your shoulders and hips in opposition, obviously that twist is AT/IN your waist.. so don't think the waist does nothing, it provides the twist. My coach has me do 3-turns holding onto a hockey stick so my arms work together and she can see they are not moving.

My coach tells me my hips don't really turn, all the other body parts turn and then the hips HAVE to turn, so they do, and that makes for a smoother turn without having body parts flying all over the place when you're/I'm ripping down the ice setting up for a jump. Of course, if you can do the turns without arms/shoulders it also makes for a more controlled pattern when doing moves, too. Fewer body parts in motion = fewer things to not be in place!

I'm not sure if this helps answer your request but I hope it helps.

[slusher]

What popped into my head when I read the original post was "European Waltz". There's no arms to help you, because the Man has a hold of them
:lol: so the knee has to do all the work. They're very sharp and neat turns which you could say about figures but they're not figure turns.

If you think of figure turns as "pre-rotate and snap" and dance/freeskate turns as "weight-unweight" they both do the same function, ie turning, but the motion makes the difference in the style. That's my experience anyway.

[SkatingOnClouds]

Thanks everyone who has replied. There is no dance coach here, and I sure am not a dancer !

I still don't get it though. I am familiar with the feeling of the hips and shoulders being in opposition, creating the torque that is released when the knee bend is in the up phase. What I am not getting is how to get the torque to create rotation if I am not to use my arms and shoulders to create it.

My coach was talking about freeskating 3 turns in general, but specifically about the flip entry from a LFO3, on a fairly flat edge. So I just can't figure out what will make me turn if I can't use either arms or shoulders.

[phoenix]

If you're comfortable/daring enough, practice them w/ your arms behind your back. Do this slowly, from a standstill. If you aren't ready to try that, alternatively, do them w/ your arms held overhead, as in 5th ballet position. In this instance, after the turn you'll be looking through the "O" that your arms make, rather than over your shoulder. If that makes sense....

Both of these exercises help teach you to do the turn using your core strength to initiate the rotation, rather than using your upper body as a rotation device. :P

[SkatingOnClouds]

If you're comfortable/daring enough, practice them w/ your arms behind your back. Do this slowly, from a standstill.

Now that sounds like a good idea! I'll try that when I next skate on Wednesday night.

Today I noticed that sometimes I feel like I do 3 turns without any shoulder/arm initiation, as part of my natural free skating. It only seems to happen occasionally, from certain moves I do, never from jump entries, of course.:roll:

[Mrs Redboots]

I was playing with this this morning, and am not at all sure what I do, I just know I turn! It is partly to do with the down-up-down (I wish I could get properly down again when doing back 3-turns!), but not all of it.

I think you do involve your shoulders & hips, but it's very subtle.