setting kids up for a defeat? [Archive]

AW1

03-26-2007, 07:48 AM

Life Lessons 101

I'm just wondering whether other parents let their kids learn the hard way and let them be annialated at a competition, or do they give them fair warning that it might (or in this case, definitely will) happen?

My daughter is in a competition this coming Saturday and she's skating against 2 older girls who are at a much higher standard than she is, even though they are technically in the same level... I don't want to set her up to fail, but last time she didn't place at a competition against these 2 girls, she got so upset and cried for hours! She's 5, and well .... she still acts like a 5 year old!!

You can't win them all, and I certainly can't expect her to win against these 2 girls given their age and experience difference, but I don't know whether to give her fair warning that there's a big possibility she won't place against them, or let her learn the lesson on her own. She is, after all, only 5!!

Suggestions/Advice? What do you do?

Isk8NYC

03-26-2007, 08:07 AM

If you advise her in advance that these kids are "better," you run the risk of psyching her out. Don't focus on winning at all; focus on her achievement of a perfect program and demonstrating good sportsmanship. Tell her it's a "tough competition" with strong skaters and she needs to be tough, too. Age really doesn't matter that much - it's skills and execution.

I go over my competition rules the night before and on the way to the rink with my own DD's. Since they've competed since they were four years old, they know the drill by now, which includes a few extra rules related to skating against your own twin sister. (LOL) I am very proud to say that all three of my DD's have gotten nothing but compliments on their behavior and sportsmanship at competitions. They win some, they lose some, but we NEVER have extended crying jags. My rules don't allow that behavior. If a kid gets that upset, competitions aren't for them yet.

Just a suggestion: I usually check my skating students' scores before awards are given out, at least for their first competition. Not all competitions post in advance; some like the *Surprise!* on the podium. I don't like surprises like that since I don't always know how a skater will react. If a kid gets third, I'll go to them all excited and exclaim "You earned the Bronze! In your first competition! That's great!" (For gold medals, I don't spoil the surprise.)

I *love* to give out the awards at in-house competitions; I always ask the third-place kid if it's his/her first competition, then I announce it to the audience and get them to applaud this achievement. It really is an achievement, and a much nicer way to find out that you didn't get the gold. I usually relate the story that my first medal I ever earned was a bronze. It was as good as gold to me; in fact, I thought it was gold for many, many years. :wink: Think about how you'll break the news to your skater, knowing she doesn't take disappointment well. YOU need to set the stage so she shines win or lose.

BatikatII

03-26-2007, 08:14 AM

Don't tell her she's likely to lose as that does set it up in her mind. Maybe focus instead on different goals for her programme like landing all jumps clean so that if she does that then no matter how she places she has 'won' her goals - maybe some small reward like choosing what food to eat afterwards or something if she achieves her goals.

If you can avoid making rewards dependant on placement, then you take away some of the problem without discouraging them from trying their best.

twokidsskatemom

03-26-2007, 12:07 PM

Here is a different point of view. YMMV

Both my kids started early.We live in a small state and they always have competed with older kids.Sometimes 6/7 years older.My son with girls.
We didnt want it to be about the placement.We just want them to do their best.
We ALWAYS have said things like.. remember you are 4,5,6 ect. older kids have bigger muscles, longer legs. Its not about the placement, just do YOUR best.
I will tell you they have never cried or even been upset about placement. WE were the first time, almost 4 years ago. Since then, I have let go of expectations.Just go and do your best.
We do both ISI and USFSA.We compete at least 4/5 times a year.
They know that like ANY sport, there 1st place and last place.They have both come in first and come in last. Its part of competing.They need to get used to it.We have seen many kids fall apart when they dont place well.
Good luck !!

jskater49

03-26-2007, 12:35 PM

The sooner the kids learn that they have no control over how well everyone else skates or even what the judges think, no matter how well they skate, the more they will enjoy competition. I am so thankful my daughter started in the club she did - the coach really encouraged everyone to compete, but she put very little importance on how you placed (first or last), just how well you skated. In fact, if you were a poor spinner, like my daughter, she insisted she enter all the spins events, to make her work on her spins. And when one of the girls got to be such a good spinner, she won all the time, she told her to stop doing the spins because she wasn't learning anything. If you were winning, it was time to test up to the next level.

So don't tell her the other girls are better, just emphasize all the other fun aspects of competing, getting the ice to herself, skating in front of a cheering crowd, getting animals thrown, the dress, cheering on her friends...trying to skate better than she did last time....goody bags, ...

j

j

beegeemom

03-26-2007, 12:44 PM

My dd is 5 also, and more often than not competes against 8 and 9 year olds. She got upset about it once, and I just told her that medals are tricky to get. Sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't, but you always say congrats to the people who do, and that we are always proud of her no matter what number she ends up.

She hasn't gotten upset since. In fact, when she bumped up a level she was coming in last for so long that when she got a 4th the last 2 times she was more excited than she was when she got medals. Gotta love the way they think.

But yeah, I wouldn't say the other kids were better or anything. I think it's me that notices the other kids are bigger, not her.

cathrl

03-26-2007, 12:49 PM

I bend the "skating to standard" rule just a little bit. I don't know if you have this in the US, but over here it's a rule which says that if you're the only entrant in a competition then you skate against the book and the judges decide whether or not you win.

Anyway, I'm reasonably sure it doesn't apply to lower places, but what the heck...my little one sees the results thinking that there's no such thing as coming last, because if the judges didn't think he was good enough they wouldn't have given him a place at all.

I second the bit about family competition rules. Doesn't matter where you finish, you congratulate the kid that won, and if you have to howl you do it in the car on the way home. My youngest has been known to slip up on the howling bit, though, especially if it's way past bedtime, and even the oldest has been known to be a bit teary if she gets marks she considers awful. Fingers are crossed for the club competition on Sunday, since I looked at the entry list for youngest's spin spiral jump competition and thought "oh dear, fourth out of four".

jskater49

03-26-2007, 12:59 PM

Oh and always look at the marks because more often than not, they'll be at least one judge that may place her higher than the rest. Make a big deal of that. :)

j

dbny

03-26-2007, 03:40 PM

I agree with what others have said. Does your daughter like attention and enjoy having people watch her on the ice? If so, you can introduce the idea that competitions and tests are an opportunity for her to be the center of attention and to own the ice during her skate. This was my DD's approach and it worked well for her because she did value the time during which no one ever got in her way, and all eyes were on her, however small that bit of time was.

MermaidSkater

03-26-2007, 05:06 PM

My daughter is close in age to your daughter (just turned 6 recently) and competes against older children, as well. It doesn't seem to matter to her, but like someone said, I notice it! LOL She has gotten medals higher and lower than older ones in her group. One thing we do is encourage her to accomplish two things at competition. Do her best and have fun. After she skates and before results we make a big deal of how proud we are and how well she did. One thing I was once told about competition and young children is to mention from time to time something about taking turns. I don't know how to put it exactly, but the idea is that young children can relate it to sharing a toy or waiting in line for a swing at the park, etc. Each person at some time will have the whatever (gold, silver, bronze) medal, each person at some time will come in first, middle, last. How do you feel when you win gold, for example...they probably feel very happy. How do you think another child would feel if they never won the top spot, or a medal at all. They would probably say that child would feel sad. Just another way of helping them be aware of the feelings of themselves and the other children, and that as long as they did their best and had fun, all is good. That is not to say they may not be disappointed if they don't score as high as they want, but they can show that safely in private in the car or away from the competition, and if they are considering the way others feel, then that may take off some of the focus of how they themselves feel.

Same thing if they do take the top spot...how may another child feel who didn't? They may feel sad, so that may help them to make extra sure to tell the other child how much they liked watching their program, liked their music, whatever.

I think this is something we all think about and consider, and the good thing is, think of the great sportsmanship we are encouraging in them that will last them forever.

Good luck at the competition! :)

twokidsskatemom

03-26-2007, 05:37 PM

You can also talk about how.... her favorite skater... Doesnt ALWAYS place first ,second ect.They all fall. make mistakes, and dont place well at every comp.

Virtualsk8r

03-26-2007, 08:51 PM

Competiton at that young an age is all about getting out there and performing, not about medals and placings. I never let young skaters see their results - and they know that going into the competition, as do their parents. They have goals for each performace (like landing a jump or just breathing in certain sections). If you are worried about placing - you're not ready to skate for the love of it.

Let's face it - unless a skater learns to perform their best under pressure, they will never make it when it counts at the national level. And that only comes from the sheer experience of competing.

By the time a 5 or 6 year old skater is a 16 year old Junior - the wins or losses at those early competitions will not even be a memory, but the joy and thrill of competing will still be with them.

Virtualsk8r

03-26-2007, 08:53 PM

jskater49

03-27-2007, 07:02 AM

PS How many skaters do you we all know that medalled every time at their earlier competitions - only to quit skating once they finally met their match at a competition and had to actually compete for the medal?

I've mentioned this before, but even though I felt so bad for my daughter at the time, I'm really grateful she came in last for the first year of her competition - she started out in pre-pre as soon as she could pass the test and she was up against girls who had been skating for years. She learned right away to focus on other things in competition. In the mean time, some of her younger club mates who started out winning everything, when they began to grow, or struggle with doubles, it was a shock for them to go home without a medal, and yeah, a lot of them quit.

j

BuggieMom

03-27-2007, 09:00 AM

I wouldn't call it "setting them up for failure", I call it preparing them for the possibilities. Like many, I have "the talk" with my 9yo dd before every competition, telling her what might happen, good and bad, and reminding her of how a good competitor, first and formost, always shows good sportsmanship on and off the podium. Up until recently, she has always gotten 1st or 2nd, and that was a source of concern for me. Everytime she placed well, while I was happy for her, I knew it would make it harder for her when things didn't go so well. She has been schooled from the beginning to not rub it in if she does well, and to not howl and cry if she doesn't. You accept the firsts and the lasts with the same grace and dignity, while allowing others their grace and dignity. She recently placed fourth for the first time last month, and I am proud to say, she accepted that medal with the same dignity and pride as she did all her higher medals. That fouth place medal served us better than another gold would have. I was actually relieved! She got a little teary-eyed in the locker room, but it was not a drawn out drama event (she didn't even mess up her makeup!), and I consider a few tears acceptable. Also, the reason for the tears matters. My dd was upset with herself, that she didn't skate as well as she could. Of course, she was upset with her placement, but she knew it was a correct placement. We have a girl at our rink that throws an all-out screaming FIT if she does not get first, it doesn't matter what the reason is. We have to compete against her this weekend. It will not be pretty.
These kids go out there WANTING to place well...how many tears have I myself shed when I didn't get something I really worked hard for and wanted really bad? We expect them to go out there, dolled up like little adults, skate beyond their years, and forget that mentally and emotionally, they are still children. THAT is what I call setting them up for failure! I am not surprised that a 5yo child cried for hours over a loss, but I would be surprised if my 9yo did. It is a matter of maturity as well as something they learn. It is up to us, parents and coaches, to teach them how to be a competitor, much as they are taught how to compete. I am NOT saying that fit-throwing is OK, but I don't believe a few tears are bad. There is an acceptable amount, and an acceptable place to shed them. I wonder how many of the senior ladies, when the cameras are off, go back in the locker room and just sob because they have lost a competition they have worked so hard for?

Mrs Redboots

03-27-2007, 03:21 PM

I think often the tears are part of the "coming-down" process; competing seems to generate a great deal of adrenaline, and it's not always easy to deal with that. I find it very hard - if I've skated well, I'm totally high, if I've skated poorly (and sometimes, I regret to say, if I think I've skated well and the judges have disagreed with me!), I'm in despair and usually floods of tears.

Chocolate helps. And whisky, but the younger ones will just have to make do with the chocolate!

Lmarletto

03-27-2007, 08:42 PM

5 is young to have developed a philosophical approach to competition. My daughter was 7 before she could even face the possibility of not placing 1st. I don't think the child's attitude toward placement at that age matters anywhere near as much as the adults' (parent's and coach's).

I love that my daughter's coach has almost no interest in her placements. The coach does her best to see that my daughter is competing at the appropriate level, but beyond that, competition is always about the process and never about medals. She typically places low to middle when she moves to a new level and once she has medaled once or twice, it's time to move up. Prior to competition all discussion is about what is in the program and how hard my daughter has worked to develop those skills, how much fun they've had choosing music and creating choreography and how delivering under pressure is a skill that creates champions all walks of life. At first my daughter was :roll: about all that stuff, but in time she bought into it. At 9, she still cares about the medals, but celebrating with her coach over what she did well and commiserating over what she wished she'd done better is a ritual she really looks forward to.

So I would recommend not prepping your daughter to place last, because that indicates you care about placements. If she's disappointed about her placement, be sympathetic, but keep your focus on what she did well. In time she'll learn to focus on things she has more control over.

Sessy

03-28-2007, 02:46 AM

Onced I danced (ballroom dancing) a competition a level up. It was practically a "home competition" (not in our own dance school though) and it was a regional competition so we really, really wanted to compete, but they didn't have deb.5. So we had to do deb.4 and deb.4 people had generally danced for around 4 years longer than we had. So we knew in advance we weren't placing for the half-finales. Still, in ballroom we got 2 out of 5 judges who wanted to put us in half-finales. Felt like a freaking victory to me!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'd say lower her expectations, and find some other mark that says she's "won" other than the placement. I.e., amount of points she gets.

AW1

03-28-2007, 07:06 AM

5 is young to have developed a philosophical approach to competition.

I agree completely with what you have said here Lmarletto. I presume that the small competitions here in Australia are much different to the US & UK as you do not get the opportunity to view the judges marks or comments etc.

So basically SHE has no way of qualifying what she has done as being good or bad, other than whether or not she gets a medal. She doesn't quite understand "just do your best and have fun" because I tried that with her the time she was howling for hours. You see, to her, she HAD done her best, and she still didn't get anything for it :??

It's a very fine line. I know that in this weeks competition she will not place higher than these 2 girls - they are both preparing to sit their preliminary exam and have been skating longer than she has.

She understands that they skate better than her in some ways, but not fully. I told her today who she was skating against so she had some idea of what she was in for, but it didn't really hit home for her. I don't want to say "now you understand that these girls have been skating longer than you blah blah blah and you probably won't beat them" because that might make her feel like I have no confidence in her abilities...

However, on the same token I am just so torn as to what I can do to mentally prepare her for it. I know it's about the experience of competing, I know it's about doing your best, but how do you communicate that to a 5 year old??

cathrl

03-28-2007, 08:40 AM

Hmm. Even in our club competition which is closed marking (i.e. no scores held up or published) the result list is posted later with where everyone came on it.

When you say she won't beat these two girls, are they the only other two in it? If so, she's going to come third. That's placing.

The other thing our club does is that every single child gets a certificate presented to them for participating. It's not a medal, and it never will be, but it's something to show in school the next day, for instance.

I don't know what else to suggest. I've never encountered a five year old getting sufficiently upset about anything to howl for hours. I'd have to say, if she really is only competing because she wants to win, and she's not going to win yet, and she doesn't understand that taking part is an achievement in itself and what matters is doing her best, she might be better off not competing for a while.

My little boy (who has come last in every competition he's ever done, except one where he was 8th out of 9) decided after last year's club competition that he wasn't going to do it any more because he hated always coming last. He didn't do the rink's summer competition. This spring I didn't even suggest the club competition to him, since he isn't even having lessons at the moment. He came bounding up waving an entry form, because he's decided he wants to do it, and he seems to have taken on board that doing it and getting marked by real judges is an achievement in itself. We'll have to see if it survives the actual competition, because in at least one of the classes he's pretty much guaranteed to come last again - and it's last of 4, so he'll be the only one without a medal. He will cry, it's inevitable, but what can I say? "No, you can't enter, because I know you'll come last"? So I do know where you're coming from, and I sympathise. It's just plain hard.

BuggieMom

03-28-2007, 10:05 AM

I know it's about the experience of competing, I know it's about doing your best, but how do you communicate that to a 5 year old??
Really, there may not BE a way to communicate that to a 5yo. As long as she is feeling no pressure from you or coach to medal, then maybe that is all you can do at this point. It does not surprise me to walk past a group of younger ones at the podium and all but two are in tears. They just simply may not be equipped at this point to understand that, as you said, they can do their best (which is all that has been asked of them) and still not have anything to show for it. Prepare her the best you can, but understand that there are just some things that she has to learn on her own. I also agree with cathrl...if it seems she really cannot grasp the concept that having fun and doing one's best is the ultimate goal, it might be better to wait to compete until she gets that idea a little better.
Is there a possibility that she is not skating in a proper level? You mentioned she is skating against girls that have been skating longer, taking prelim. exams, etc. Is she skating in a level she has no realistic chance of being competitive in? We have a coach at our rink that seems to move her girls up way too fast, into levels they don't stand a chance in. It WOULD be very frustrating to never have a chance in whatever level you are competing in. If this is a possibility, talk to the coach about it.

carmom

03-28-2007, 11:16 AM

When my daughter started competing, she was often on the podium with older skaters and I am convinced that all things being fairly equal, it was the big smile with missing teeth looking right at the judges that swayed the scores every time. I know a World judge whose top priority is that the skater interact and engage the judges. At the low levels of skating this would be all the more important. My skater won first once and she'd left out one of the required parts, but boy did she smile big. It teaches these young ones that this sport above all others is about entertainment. That's why they wear costumes and skate to music while performing difficult elements. Winning isn't worth it if you didn't have a good time doing it. I always tell my skater that if she tried her best and smiled, she got first place no matter what the actual results were. Then we go out and celebrate.

Isk8NYC

03-28-2007, 11:32 AM

Winning isn't worth it if you didn't have a good time doing it. I always tell my skater that if she tried her best and smiled, she got first place no matter what the actual results were. Then we go out and celebrate.I totally agree with you. My kids love to go out for dinner afterwards, still in their skating dresses and makeup.

peanutskates

03-28-2007, 11:36 AM

I have no more to add, but please tell us what the results were!

sk8rmom2006

03-28-2007, 12:17 PM

Agree with most of your said.

I told my DD who is 9 yr old now that as long as she skates her best, beat her old performance, she is champion in everybody's heart. I let her watched how Kimmie Meisner answered the interview after World Champion. She is such a doll, great skater. Yes, when the skaters give all of themselves, they are the champion.

Hope your DD do her best in the competition.

twokidsskatemom

03-28-2007, 12:51 PM

I really think this is one of those... it depends on what is right for her and your family.
I can tell you at age 5, my daughter did understand that she was with older ,bigger kids. She did understand we wanted her to do her best, and that was all we could ask of her.Its a lesson I think they should learn early IF they want to compete . Everyone cant win and everyone doesnt win. Its that simple.
At age 5 1/2 or so, My daughter was in a comp and had no other skaters with her. Her coach would rather her skater with someone than alone.We asked her if she wanted to skate alone or move up a level. If she moved up a level, it would put her with a 9 year old she was friends with. We did say, if you move up, you know... will place before you. She is older and has been skating longer. Since she doesnt care about the placements, she said she wanted to move up.We even talked to the other skaters mom and said the same thing.
We were all suprised when she placed first:)
We have seen a few tweens meltdown when they lose to a younger skater. That is why we dont want them to worry about beating anyone, just do the best they can and have fun!
YMMV but its worked for us.

carmom

03-28-2007, 01:31 PM

"I told my DD who is 9 yr old now that as long as she skates her best, beat her old performance, she is champion in everybody's heart."

First I'd like to say that your skater won't always skate their best nor are they even likely to frequently beat their last performance, at least not at higher levels. Just let them know how much you value any effort they make and try your best to enjoy each skate they have for it's own sake. It's funny but this whole topic just came up today not only for my skater but for her friend as well. We have a huge competition this weekend. My skater will skate Novice jumps as one of her events, which is up one level. Her coach warned that there were some big jumpers in the group. I replied that it didn't matter in the least. My daughter has won against much tougher skaters and lost to skaters that were way below her normal ability. That's skating folks! Sometimes she's incredibly artistic but blows her jumps. Other times she jumps and spins like crazy but doesn't smile until the end. Can you guess which time I'm the most proud? Don't warn your skater ever! Just love them unconditionally and tell them they're your winner as long as they smile, as long as they try. This will get you through the ups, downs, growth spurts, fevers, late arrivals, hormones, doubts, fears, and God willing, victories. The only regret I have in looking back at the old tapes is taking it so seriously that I didn't enjoy how incredibly gutsy and precious she was. My moans when she slipped on a backwards cross-over sound so ridiculous now! Cheer loud and proud and forget the mistakes.

Sessy

03-29-2007, 09:01 AM

OK, you know, when I was 5 years old I wasn't competing much in anything. However we did play with older girls outside in school breaks and we did do running who was fastest or jumping who was highest etc. Just organising it ourselves you know.
And I figured out very fast there was no ways to beat older kids in that.

I was upset every time anyway, but not to the point of tears cuz I'd come to expect it.

So my question is, does your child play outside with older kids?

sk8rmom2006

03-29-2007, 01:28 PM

First I'd like to say that your skater won't always skate their best nor are they even likely to frequently beat their last performance, at least not at higher levels. Just let them know how much you value any effort they make and try your best to enjoy each skate they have for it's own sake.

I think there are two different things we are talking about here. For us,

1. We told our DD that no matter what happens what she did, we would always love her for being our darling daughter. We love her for who she is. That is why she always welcome to talk with us, to share her moments with us.

2. Working ethic - effort. It is never too early to teach kids that they should possess a good working ethic - work hard, be honest. It will do kids no good if parents or adults keep telling kids good things about them, avoiding telling them the reality. No matter what they grow into, any professionals, they should train to have tough mind, be able to face the fact, even sometimes the fact is painful. The reality is the world is not always that sweet and pure that most parents would like to present to their precious kids. We can not protect them forever. However, if we can teach them how to be a good citizen, a strong mind person, these would stay with them lifetime.

As parents, we value our kids' efforts way much more than the results. As long as they try their best, she is champion in our heart. Performance again is more surface value. If they overcome all negative odds, demonstrate their strong wills, even the performance might not be the best, however, their inner strength will win all our hearts.

AW1

03-31-2007, 06:41 AM

Today turned out better than I expected to be perfectly honest.

Poor kid has been battling the last couple of days with tonsillitis, dull ears and a fever. When her ears are dull it really plays with her balance. Plus the 14 yr old girl missing in the Sydney Harbour Boat Crash (Morgan Innes) is a friend of hers, so it's been a heck of a week for her the poor kid!

I just told her she could only do as best as she could do given she wasn't well and she just needed to try her best.

She came out of it pretty well today, though she did come last (3rd out of 3). She didn't mind she came last, she was actually excited that she got a medal (her other awards are trophies) so I think the novelty of that softened the blow for her.

I'm amazed at how resilient she is sometimes. Sometimes she just blows me away with how mature she can be - others, she astonishes me by acting her real age ...

I just hope that today was a day she will remember where she came last, but still had fun, and that no matter what happens, she can still skate, when her friend can't :(