Do You Teach Edges - Literally?

[dbny]

Today I gave a lesson to an adult student whose young daughter also skates and has lessons with a different coach (a very good one that I recommended at a different rink). After my student's lesson, we hung out together on the ice with her daughter, encouraging her to show us what she was learning, and I discovered that the daughter didn't know the difference between Outside and Inside edges. Both the mom and I explained, but the girl still didn't get it and told us so. Then I realized that she had probably never felt the bottom of a blade, so I had her remove a glove and showed her how to move a finger across the blade to feel the edges and the hollow. She got it instantly and was able to demo O and I edges. Confusion resolved! I don't think I've ever seen another coach do this, but I have a feeling that it should be done in the very first lesson, or at least as soon as a skater starts being able to do a one foot glide.

[Isk8NYC]

I do it on the ice. I take off a glove and press my finger across the blade while holding onto the wall. When I show the skater my finger, they can clearly see the two lines left by the edges. I remind them again later when they're removing their skates - just turn it upside down and hold something flat across the edges and they can see the hollow. (Interestingly enough, they think that the blades edges are sharp like razor edges. I tell them they're more like steak knives.

What about teaching that the blade is curved, ie. has a rocker?

[dbny]

What about teaching that the blade is curved, ie. has a rocker?

Yes, I do that too. I ask the student to watch the blade's contact with the ice while I do a FO edge and then a BO, so they can see that your weight has to be towards the back of the blade when skating forwards, and towards the front when skating backwards. I also ask them to rock forwards and back, usually at the boards.

[teresa]

I never was told about edges specifically until my current coach. My first coach never talked about edges, and as adult who hadn't skated as a child, I didn't even think about it. My second coach did talk about edges to some extent, assuming I understood, but really I didn't. It wasn't until I started with my current coach that I finally was explained too. My skating has improved by leaps and bounds because I truly understand what I should be doing. Someone who has skated their whole life just doesn't understand, I think, how ignorant someone just starting the sport is. The sooner a coach explains "things" the better it is in my opinion. You can't change what you don't understand.

teresa

[Isk8NYC]

I guess that's why DBNY and I thought to teach it - neither of us has been ice skating our whole life.

[dooobedooo]

A lot of coaches never teach "stops", either. Then a kid, with 10 years plus of serious skating behind them, applies to join a show and has to spend several weeks learning how to stop properly. :roll:

[Isk8NYC]

A lot of coaches never teach "stops", either. Then a kid, with 10 years plus of serious skating behind them, applies to join a show and has to spend several weeks learning how to stop properly. :roll:Many synchro teams also require skaters to know all the stops on both feet. Probably because they don't want to spend synchro time teaching stops.

I like a one-foot hockey stop, but it's really not as pretty as the others. I never learned a tango stop and I rarely used my t-stops. One of my goals for this year is to learn a tango stop. Another is to become competent at doing all the stops both ways. Why? Because one of the Show choreographers is a CW skater and tends to put in movements that use my "weak side." I always get caught off-guard and then I stumble around trying to force the movements.

Don't think skaters were NEVER taught to stop. There's a variety of (one-side) stops throughout both USFSA and ISI LTS programs. A lot of students don't realize the importance of stopping, period. I see kids who've been skating for several years slam into the wall to stop. They don't do it in my classes anymore because I've told them that it nets them a stop lesson. They hate "wasting time" on the stop lessons.

[dbny]

I guess that's why DBNY and I thought to teach it - neither of us has been ice skating our whole life.

I think you may be right there. Having been a roller dancer, I was taught that "an edge is a curve". It was quite a revelation to me that the word has a literal meaning on ice.

Isk8NYC - I had gotten into the habit of always doing a tango stop when I was a roller skater. Years before I started lessons on ice, I went skating with older DD and DH, and just naturally put my left foot forward for a tango stop and fell so hard onto my right hip that I had bursitis for six months. That put me off skating, unfortunately, or I might have started much earlier.

[Lmarletto]

Looking at the actual edges on a blade is a great idea! My daughter was completely confused about edges for a long time and I finally figured out that she thought an outside edge meant that the outside leg on the circle was the skating leg and inside edge meant that the inside leg on the circle was the skating leg. Well, that had her edges completely backwards! Her group lesson coaches had just assumed she was too young to "get" edges. She "got" them - she just didn't understand their explanation of which was which, lol.

[Sessy]

Our club doesn't. At least, they tried once this season but gave up when the kids didn't get it. And yet, the children have no problem doing edgework, taking off their lutzes and half-lutzes from an outside edge, etc.
Our club just names them curves indeed. And for the jumps, they use mostly the 3-turn setup so you can't go wrong there, with the lutz they just paid so much attention to our takeoffs that there's no way we could get on the inside edge doing what they asked - unless we waited too long to jump of course.

However, not learning edges did complicate the matter for learning the different types of mowhaks. Eventually the kids tied the outside edge mowhak to going outside of the circle when you're doing it, but they stil didn't get the real reason it's an outside mowhak.

They are very big on teaching about the rocker though. Mostly our ballet teacher - who's never skated in his life but has been cleaning up programmes of figure skaters for years now - is big on it actually, strangely enough.

[Sessy]

What's a tango stop?

Our tastes of stops come in hockey stop, 1 foot hockey stop, snowplow stop, dragging t-position stop and pushing t-position stop that I don't know the names of.

The one thing I'm a big dissapointed about is that we never learned any other way to stop going backwards than getting on your toepicks. I'm guessing that might come sometime afterward, because our A-group (doubles & up) does a stop of that kind, but our B-group, which I'm in, doesn't unfortunately.

[kateskate]

Our club doesn't. At least, they tried once this season but gave up when the kids didn't get it. And yet, the children have no problem doing edgework, taking off their lutzes and half-lutzes from an outside edge, etc.
Our club just names them curves indeed. And for the jumps, they use mostly the 3-turn setup so you can't go wrong there, with the lutz they just paid so much attention to our takeoffs that there's no way we could get on the inside edge doing what they asked - unless we waited too long to jump of course.

However, not learning edges did complicate the matter for learning the different types of mowhaks. Eventually the kids tied the outside edge mowhak to going outside of the circle when you're doing it, but they stil didn't get the real reason it's an outside mowhak.

They are very big on teaching about the rocker though. Mostly our ballet teacher - who's never skated in his life but has been cleaning up programmes of figure skaters for years now - is big on it actually, strangely enough.

I'm sure they would have a problem doing the edges or copying what to do but it is important for them to *know*what edge they should be on rather than copying or just thinking about a direction. As you say it complicates things later if they don't know

I'm not a coach so please any coach correct me if I'm out of line but if the kid is good enough to do the move then surely they are ready to know what edge they should be on. Just a thought.

[dbny]

What's a tango stop?

Our tastes of stops come in hockey stop, 1 foot hockey stop, snowplow stop, dragging t-position stop and pushing t-position stop that I don't know the names of.

The one thing I'm a big dissapointed about is that we never learned any other way to stop going backwards than getting on your toepicks.

A tango stop is a T stop with the stopping foot in front of the skating foot, instep facing forward. This is probably what you are calling a "pushing t-position stop". I hope you aren't dragging your blade on what you call a "dragging t-position stop", because the blade is not dragged in a T stop. Dragging would put it on the Inside edge, and the stop is done on the Outside edge with no drag.

If you can do a snowplow stop, you can also do a backwards snowplow stop. It's easier to learn using one foot. While going backwards, just allow one foot to slide back (and to the side somewhat, and pointing outwards), and apply pressure to the inside edge. Be sure to bend the skating knee. After you are comfy with this, you can apply pressure to both at once, exactly like a forward snowplow stop, except that your toes point out instead of in.

I'm not a coach so please any coach correct me if I'm out of line but if the kid is good enough to do the move then surely they are ready to know what edge they should be on. Just a thought.

ITA.

[Sessy]

A tango stop is a T stop with the stopping foot in front of the skating foot, instep facing forward. This is probably what you are calling a "pushing t-position stop". I hope you aren't dragging your blade on what you call a "dragging t-position stop", because the blade is not dragged in a T stop. Dragging would put it on the Inside edge, and the stop is done on the Outside edge with no drag.

Yeah I know, they made me demonstrate it like fifty times cuz I was the only one who got it right straight away in class. I'm guessing the fact that they tried to teach it starting from literally dragging it didn't exactly help. I just had a very powerful hockey stop and somehow it was very easy to just turn the left foot 90 degrees on this "hockey stop" to get this T-stop.

However, the pushing t-stop we do with the heel to the right if the right leg is in front of the left leg... So instep inside I guess? There's one with instep outside too? Interesting!!!


Thanks for the info on the back snowplow!!! :)

[Sessy]

I'm not a coach so please any coach correct me if I'm out of line but if the kid is good enough to do the move then surely they are ready to know what edge they should be on. Just a thought.

I dunno, we have people in our class who can't figure out the difference between left or right... I'm pretty sure edges are just too hypothetical for them.

[Isk8NYC]

I dunno, we have people in our class who can't figure out the difference between left or right... I'm pretty sure edges are just too hypothetical for them.Those students get stickers on their left inside boot. Now, LEFT INSIDE EDGE is easier for them to remember. The other three edges they have to figure out and use properly on their own! (Although, I do have one girl who is "directionally challenged" - she skates forwards every time I ask them to do "Back Crossovers." I think it's a ploy to get out of practicing that maneuver.)

You can spot my (young) beginner MITF students - they all have stickers on their skates!!! LOL

[jskater49]

I dunno, we have people in our class who can't figure out the difference between left or right... I'm pretty sure edges are just too hypothetical for them.

I'm one of those that often is can't remember right from left (you'll get much farther with me if you use "skating leg- free leg...) but I can tell an outside edge from an inside edge. It's really not hypothetical at all - it's much more descriptive than right and left

j

[kateskate]

I dunno, we have people in our class who can't figure out the difference between left or right... I'm pretty sure edges are just too hypothetical for them.

IMO that doesn't mean you shouldn't try and tell them what they should be doing. They will get it eventually.

Again not a coach so just speculating but if they can do the move then they should be told what it is they are doing and what the edges are.

[dbny]

However, the pushing t-stop we do with the heel to the right if the right leg is in front of the left leg... So instep inside I guess?

That one sounds like a one foot snowplow to me.

I dunno, we have people in our class who can't figure out the difference between left or right... I'm pretty sure edges are just too hypothetical for them.

:lol: My DH is always confused about L and R because he sees things in three dimensions and can look at an object from the front or back in his head, kind of like stage directions. When driving, I often tell him "turn to your side" instead of "turn left". He did get edges right away though.

Again not a coach so just speculating but if they can do the move then they should be told what it is they are doing and what the edges are.

ITA.

[Casey]

Tango stop is with the stopping foot turned out so the inside faces forward, and the outside edge is the one that does the stopping, just as in a T-stop, but the stopping foot sits centered in front of the toe instead of centered behind heel. Trick is to get weight more towards heel as it is inclined to go to the toe...

[dbny]

Er, that's what I said a month ago, Casey. Did you perhaps see the question and then skip to the end? I don't usually do this, but I thought there was something new on a thread that interested me.

Tango stop is with the stopping foot turned out so the inside faces forward, and the outside edge is the one that does the stopping, just as in a T-stop, but the stopping foot sits centered in front of the toe instead of centered behind heel. Trick is to get weight more towards heel as it is inclined to go to the toe...

A tango stop is a T stop with the stopping foot in front of the skating foot, instep facing forward.

[SynchroSk8r114]

I find that when teaching inside and outside edges that most children don't understand the difference until shown directly. Several of my skaters thought that (when doing edges) your skating foot dictated what edge you were on. Wow...like others, I have used the same techniques to teach younger skaters about edges. I also have them stand on the ice and lean their blade to an outside/inside edge. Amazing how quickly some skaters will pick up on this after not being taught correctly at first.

As for teaching about the rocker, I find this exercise especially helpful when talking about where on the blade to spin. I have my students hold onto the wall and find what I call the "sweet spot" on their blade (the rocker) and have them slide their blade back and forth on the ice without making any scratchy noises (meaning that they've hit the toepick). I also sometimes will have them to do this while I literally slide their blade over this part so that I can tell that they are feeling the rocker rather than just sliding their entire blade on the ice.