How fast is fast?

[newskaker5]

I want to increase my speed as a skater and I have no idea what a reasonable "fast" standard of stroking would be? What is an adequate time to complete stroking around a full NHL size rink? 15-20 seconds? faster?

Any tips to improve speed? I tend to skate very "quick" but not necessarily super fast. Right now, I have yet to test, but my skills are around the Bronze level. Any advice to improve in the area or how to assess it?

[jskater49]

This is a skill that is emphasized more in dance...but bring your feet together (so they touch) each time before you push - that will give you a lot more power and more power will give you more speed.

j

[phoenix]

I can also tell you that what *feels* fast isn't necessarily fast enough. :frus: You have to really push past your comfort zone as you work on increasing speed.

[miraclegro]

It's not necessarily "speed" as you're thinking of....but its pushing with DEEPER edges and more power, which seems slower, is actually much faster, and you cover more ice much quicker.

Hope this helps.

[Morgail]

I always feel as though I'm flying around the rink, but, according to my coach, I'm never skating with enough power. I think speed is the same as bent knees - you feel as though you have decent speed/deep knee bend, but it usually is not enough!

[doubletoe]

It's a matter of improving your distance per stroke, which comes from increased range of motion. You increase your range of motion per stroke by bringing your feet together before each push (as previously mentioned) and keeping your knees deeply bent so you have a greater extension from the bent position to the extended position on each stroke. I would highly recommend the power crossover circles from the Adult Gold MIF test. You start off with long, very round strokes in a small circle and build speed as you open up the circle and make each stroke quicker and quicker. This teaches you how to skate on a curve and how to use both long strokes and quick strokes to skate fast and powerfully. You do them both CW and CCW and forward and backward.

[Mrs Redboots]

Husband and I have been working on getting 4 pushes per side when we do our warm-up, which we can now do easily. The other day, we only did 3 and were already at the end of the rink!

Although we can both do this easily forwards, whether solo or in our warm-up hold of Open Kilian, Husband does tend to forget that's what's wanted when we're doing edges or swings in waltz hold. And he will confuse speed with tempo.... sigh..... and although he naturally skates, and dances, a very great deal faster than I do, his free programme always looks slow.

[jenlyon60]

Remember also that speed and power are 2 totally different things.

Speed is how fast you're going.

Power is how efficiently you're generating speed.

For example, a skater who achieves high speed by doing lots of short strokes is not generating as much power as a skater achieving the same amount of speed with half the number of strokes or pushes.

And quickness is something totally different yet, in terms of skating vernacular.

To be precise, in the USFS test judging system (from the MIF School Manual),

Power is defined as "the creation and maintenance of speed without visible effort. It is developed by a continuous rise and fall of the skating knee together with the pressure of the edge against the ice. End products of power are (1) velocity, speed or pace; (2) flow across the ice; and (3) acceleration."

Quickness is defined as "foot speed. It is the precise, rapid and crisp execution of turns, changes of edge and transitions. Quickness does not refer to the overall pace at which the move is skated, although in some moves the foot speed will result in a brisk and continuous cadence."

[Mainemom]

Oooh, thank you for the definitions! My DD is getting ready for the Preliminary MIF and FS tests and her coach keeps telling her she needs more power. This definition makes so much sense it should make it easier for her to work on it. Power = speed, but not necessarily speed = power, if I understand this properly.

[cathrl]

Yes, raw speed won't do it.

I saw a really strong, fast skater sent back to do a complete reskate of a dance moves test - apparently the tester told her that it was not a speed skate test and to slow things down :) Those of us watching from the cafe had no idea what was being said, of course, and were having kittens that she was doing a reskate, because none of the kids who were to follow skate anything like that powerfully.

[jazzpants]

How fast is fast? NEVER FAST ENOUGH for my secondary coach! She's WELL KNOWN for yelling to her students "You ALL NEED TO HAUL BUTT (or @$$, depending on whether she's around her kid students and their parents :halo: or just us adults!!! :twisted: ) :lol: :lol: :lol: (Her other favorite phrase is "FASTER!!!!" :lol: )

(What everyone else says... It's not about speed! It's about POWER!!!)

[jenlyon60]

Power = speed, but not necessarily speed = power, if I understand this properly.

Well, basically. Definitely the speed doesn't equal power. Speed can come from power (think of a skater who can achieve really good secure flow across the ice with a minimum of effort... that's a powerful skater). Powerful skating is efficient skating. Lots of short strokes may generate speed, but they're not the most efficient way of getting there. Think of someone taking a walk who's doing a lot of really short steps to cover a given distance, versus fewer longer steps.

Having said all that, a preliminary skater isn't expected to have the same level of power/flow of an intermediate or novice skater, and definitely not the same level of power/flow of a senior level skater.

At the Preliminary level, the expectation (power-wise) is that the skater will demonstrate an ability to accelerate with proper skating techniques. By the time the skater is at the Pre-Juvenile level, the expectation is that the skater will demonstrate a "bilateral ability to push off with equal and even strength from solid edges with flexible skating knees." At Juvenile, the expectation for power generation is "an ability to increase speed with solid control;", for Intermediate, "Continuous flow, maintaining speed through the transitions and the ability to increase speed effortlessly." By the novice level, the skater is expected to demonstrate a "strong ability to generate and maintain speed from beginning to end without interruption." Finally, for Junior, the expectation is "accomplished implementation of effortless acceleration and flow;" and for Senior "Mastery of the generation of speed, acceleration, and control, all at a refined pace."

[Sessy]

Actually, power isn't speed either. Friend of mine does crossovers on her toepicks. She's VERY tired after her programmes, and still not got any speed.
Power + Balance = Speed.

[jenlyon60]

Speed can come from power. Power does not come from speed.

[Lark]

Accidental extra post.

[Lark]

Just curious.

I am not a skater, but I was wondering if you could give some examples of popular skaters who garner speed correctly? Just so I can understand and visualize.

For example, when I watch Michelle Kwan, she looks reallllly slow on tv. But Sasha Cohen looks fast to me. Is it just the tv?

Interesting topic.

[jskater49]

Just curious.

I am not a skater, but I was wondering if you could give some examples of popular skaters who garner speed correctly? Just so I can understand and visualize.

For example, when I watch Michelle Kwan, she looks reallllly slow on tv. But Sasha Cohen looks fast to me. Is it just the tv?

Interesting topic.

Live, Michelle Kwan had really good speed - through her technique and power, she showed little effort so it looked slow. Sasha Cohen often had quick footwork, which is not the same thing. It is very difficult to gage the ice coverage and speed from TV.

If you ever saw any of Scott Hamilton's footwork, he would actually generate speed from his footwork.

Caryn Kadavy was a fast skater. She did a show for us once, and the spotlight guy could not keep up with her.

j

[Bill_S]

I want to increase my speed as a skater and I have no idea what a reasonable "fast" standard of stroking would be? What is an adequate time to complete stroking around a full NHL size rink? 15-20 seconds? faster?



It takes me about 35 seconds to do the forward power stroking pattern around the rink from bronze moves. That includes the preliminary steps. This data might serve as a benchmark for you. I'm not the world's fastest skater, but I'm not the slowest either.

I timed this from a video I made in December where I held the camera while I skated. You can double check my stopwatch if you want at:

forwd_prw_stroke.avi (http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/skating/images/forwd_prw_stroke.avi)

Don't view it if you get motion sickness! Remember that I hand-held the camera while skating.

[newskaker5]

Thank you all so much! I have been working on the PP stroking MIF and clocking myself for time as well as maintaining correct body positions and edges (as much as I can). I clocked in at 25 seconds and didnt know if that was good or bad. I will keep working on the power and stroke length.

BTW, on this MIF how close are you supposed to get to the barriers when you go around the corners? I have a fear of hitting them on the crossovers, but didnt know how close/far away is OK on this move?

[jenlyon60]

You don't have to be hugging the barrier. You want to be far enough away that you get somewhere around 4-6 crossovers around the end of the rink.

Without consulting my rulebook, I think the guidance for Pre-Prelim perimeter stroking may say minimum 3 crossovers, but going from memory here. Most Pre-Prelim skaters seem to do between 3/4 and 6 crossovers around the end of the rink. You don't want the crossovers to be too steppy. At Pre-Prelim the judge(s) might pass them, but you may well get a comment about steppiness.

OTOH, you don't want to be so far away from the long barriers that you essentially do a long narrow lap around the rink.

Remember, also, you want to get 4-8 strokes down the length of the ice. Again, though, depending on your height, if you do too many, you may get a comment about lack of power or lack of push.

[doubletoe]

One of the best investments I ever made was the PSA moves-in-the-field videos. For the price of two private lessons, you can get video instruction and demonstration of all of the moves in the field, from PrePre through Senior. It's helpful not only in showing you the correct patterns on the ice, but also giving you an idea of what the move looks like and what is considered passing standard. I bought mine here:
http://www.skatedvd.net/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=441111DVD&Category_Code=Instructional

[Ellyn]

It's not necessarily "speed" as you're thinking of....but its pushing with DEEPER edges and more power, which seems slower, is actually much faster, and you cover more ice much quicker.

For example, if you look at the forward perimeter stroking on the US prepreliminary/adult prebronze (counterclockwise) and prejuvenile/bronze MITF tests, the end patterns are pretty much the same, just forward crossovers, but along the sides former is on shallow inside edges traveling pretty much in a straight line parallel to the boards and the latter is on crossover curves using deep outside and inside edges curving back and forth toward the boards and the center of the ice with each lobe.

If the same skater (i.e., to control for skill level, not comparing a prepreliminary with a prejuvenile skater) were to skate both patterns, it might take about the same number of seconds to complete a full circuit of the ice. But the number of feet/meters of ice traveled would be about 1 1/2 times as much in the prejuvenile pattern because of the curving back and forth. However, the crossover technique and the transition pushes to the deep inside edges enable the skater to generate more power with each push than the straight-line stroking does.

How many strokes do you use down each side on the prepreliminary pattern? You're allowed four to eight (two to four on each foot) for the test. Skaters who get more power per push from better technique, and/or from longer legs, are more likely to need only four pushes. More advanced skaters (i.e., juvenile level or above) can cover the length of the ice in that pattern with two strokes, but you wouldn't expect that at prepreliminary level.

[techskater]

Just curious.

I am not a skater, but I was wondering if you could give some examples of popular skaters who garner speed correctly? Just so I can understand and visualize.

For example, when I watch Michelle Kwan, she looks reallllly slow on tv. But Sasha Cohen looks fast to me. Is it just the tv?

Interesting topic.

Kwan had excellent power and ice coverage. Boitano was another really powerful skater - minimal effort for maximum gain. Of the current crop of US ladies, Liang, Hughes, and Meissner are powerful (Meissner more than the other 2, surprisingly).

[doubletoe]

Carolina Kostner is currently being touted as the fastest female figure skater, so you might want to check out some videos of her.
But it's true that Michelle Kwan had powerful stroking, too. I rememberthe first time I was on a freestyle session with her I was rather surprised at how few strokes it took her to get from one end of the rink to the other, and I noticed her blades made a "rrriip!" sound with each stroke, meaning she was really pushing against the ice.

[Award]

Actually, power isn't speed either. Friend of mine does crossovers on her toepicks. She's VERY tired after her programmes, and still not got any speed.
Power + Balance = Speed.

I think that it is power + good stroking technique + good fitness and agility helps to generate optimum speed for an individual wearing their particular kind of skate.

[Lark]

Kwan had excellent power and ice coverage. Boitano was another really powerful skater - minimal effort for maximum gain. Of the current crop of US ladies, Liang, Hughes, and Meissner are powerful (Meissner more than the other 2, surprisingly).

That is funny. As a television viewer, to me, Meisner looks like she is skating in molasses. But Liang and Hughes look reallllly fast.

It is funny how much television can distort things.

[Mainemom]

Thank you all for your comments on power vs speed. This has been a very interesting and useful thread. As for the "rrip" sound of edges, my DD's coach is big on the blades being quiet on the ice. I know what the "rrip" sounds like as our skating director is an incredible skater and he literally flies down the ice, but sounds like a freight train coming! You just want to hug the boards and get out of the way! Soooo, is "rriip" acceptable?

[jskater49]

Thank you all for your comments on power vs speed. This has been a very interesting and useful thread. As for the "rrip" sound of edges, my DD's coach is big on the blades being quiet on the ice. I know what the "rrip" sounds like as our skating director is an incredible skater and he literally flies down the ice, but sounds like a freight train coming! You just want to hug the boards and get out of the way! Soooo, is "rriip" acceptable?

Rip is always a good thing when is the sound of the edge. What your dd's coach doesn't want to hear is scratchy crossovers or toe picks.

j

[flo]

Of who I've seen live: Kimmie's very fast and the power is really increasing, Boitano, Dorothy Hammill, Rocky Marvel and Cala Urbanski are very powerful.
When I saw nats a few years ago there was a significant difference between the power of Tonya Harding and the rest of the pack. It was pretty amazing to see.

TV does not give you an appreciation of this at all!

[phoenix]

Rip is always a good thing when is the sound of the edge. What your dd's coach doesn't want to hear is scratchy crossovers or toe picks.

j

Actually, IMO, you can have too much rip. Ever hear a hockey player coming? They make a lot of noise. The rip is good when it's a low growl. A higher pitch can mean your blade is tearing up the ice, which is making friction, which is slowing you down.

To see a good example of generating power without a lot of (apparent) effort, watch an elite level dancer/team warm up with stroking. They'll be flying--and it looks like slow, lazy strokes down the ice--maybe 4 per side, w/ 2 or 3 crossovers around the ends. It's about getting down into your knees, pressing into the ice, and using the full length of each leg to get a long stroke.

[doubletoe]

Thank you all for your comments on power vs speed. This has been a very interesting and useful thread. As for the "rrip" sound of edges, my DD's coach is big on the blades being quiet on the ice. I know what the "rrip" sounds like as our skating director is an incredible skater and he literally flies down the ice, but sounds like a freight train coming! You just want to hug the boards and get out of the way! Soooo, is "rriip" acceptable?

Generally speaking, judges love perfectly quiet edges. However, there are times when they listen for specific sounds, and one of them is the "rrrip". On the inside slide chasse move (Intermediate MIF), they specifically listen for it on the silde chasses, so I had to practice getting my blades to make that sound!

[newskaker5]

I did it :) I was able to cover the length of the ice in 2 pushes today :) Of course I was faster when I used 4 pushes but I will keep working on it. Thanks for the advice!
And and you are all right about bringing your feet close together before the push - my coach always tells me to do this, so I have been, but I paid attention to it today and it does speed you up quite a bit :)

[jskater49]

I did it :)
And and you are all right about bringing your feet close together before the push - my coach always tells me to do this, so I have been, but I paid attention to it today and it does speed you up quite a bit :)

That's a good habit to develop if you ever decide to take up dance. Wide stepping is a BIG no-no in dance.

j

[Sessy]

I wonder how come my back crossovers are SO much faster than my forward ones... I can't seem to get any speed forward!

[jskater49]

I wonder how come my back crossovers are SO much faster than my forward ones... I can't seem to get any speed forward!

hehehe, I remember trying to convince my late husband that it was easier to go fast going backward than forward - he said "yeah, well then why don't speed skaters go backward?"

Paul Wylie was one that seemed to be able to go fast on forward progressives.

j

[sue123]

I wonder how come my back crossovers are SO much faster than my forward ones... I can't seem to get any speed forward!

I have the same thing. My back crossovers go really fast with a lot of control, no matter how long I've been off the ice. Fowards on the other hand.... For some reason, going backwards seems more natural to me, so I can go faster. I tend to think more when I go fowards. I remember a while ago when I still had lessons, my coach was trying to get me to go faster on them. She kept telling me to go faster, until I eventually ended up going too fast and wound up falling. I'm guessing I managed to lose control somehow.

[Sessy]

hehehe, I remember trying to convince my late husband that it was easier to go fast going backward than forward - he said "yeah, well then why don't speed skaters go backward?"
j

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Well for starters, speed skaters don't have toepicks. I just keep tripping over them on my forward crossovers, or going too far on the back of the blade to avoid tripping over them and then just having the skates slide from underneath me. Ugh I hate the forward crossovers. My back crossovers are not on the toepicks at all for some reason. They used to be, but I just had to hold my arms further back. I just don't get it, I mean theoretically, it's the same movement!