New Dutch Waltz Step

[jskater49]

A couple of months ago in Omaha and yesterday, I noticed people doing the Dutch Waltz different than I learned it.

The end pattern--after the progressive, you do L outside edge, right inside edge, then another progressive, swing roll, Left outside edge, right inside edge.

Okay, people are doing like a crossover for that outside inside edge. The first time I saw it I thought it was a mistake - but lots of people from all over are doing it. And technically it is an outside and inside edge, but I never learned it as a crossover and my dance coach never saw it before. Anyone else encounter that?

j

[dooobedooo]

It's a long time since I learnt this one, but ...

I learnt it with a lilt (dip 1-2, rise on 3) on the LFO, followed by a crossover on the RFI.

In my (UK) manual steps list, it is shown as a RFI progressive (more or less the same as a crossover to all intents and purposes). In my US manual, there is no steps list.

[Morgail]

I do the end pattern you listed, and I do the outside edge and inside edge as just two different strokes - no crossover. That's interesting if people are doing it as a crossover. I think that doing a crossover might make it easier to get around that curve.

[phoenix]

If you're talking about the last 2 steps before the restart, the feet should not cross. It's definitely *easier* to do it as a crossover, but according to the (US) rulebook it's wrong, & might possibly fail the dance if you're testing it that way. I always stress those particular steps to my students, that they take care *not* to cross their feet, since it's kind of natural at that spot to cross them.

[jskater49]

If you're talking about the last 2 steps before the restart, the feet should not cross. It's definitely *easier* to do it as a crossover, but according to the (US) rulebook it's wrong, & might possibly fail the dance if you're testing it that way. I always stress those particular steps to my students, that they take care *not* to cross their feet, since it's kind of natural at that spot to cross them.

It would never occur to me to make those edges a crossover but seeing so many people doing it I was wondering if they had changed the dance!

j

[TreSk8sAZ]

If you're talking about the last 2 steps before the restart, the feet should not cross. It's definitely *easier* to do it as a crossover, but according to the (US) rulebook it's wrong, & might possibly fail the dance if you're testing it that way. I always stress those particular steps to my students, that they take care *not* to cross their feet, since it's kind of natural at that spot to cross them.

Sorry, but that's actually not necessarily true. Though I agree it's in the rulebook as not a crossover, you do have the option to do so. My coach teaches it without, but prefers to compete it with the crossover on the end as he believes it looks better. I freaked out when my coach told me this, but I've seen many other teams do so. He also said it's acceptable on tests, as he was teaching my partner since we're both tall and run out of room (*Note, I passed it NOT doing the crossovers). You can actually do two crossovers (one before the restart and one into the end pattern). It may depend on region, I'm not sure. But people do, acceptably, do it this way. :giveup:

[PhysicistOnIce]

I learned the Dutch Waltz in the US and it was as described above, the last two steps were an LFO and RFI with no crossing or lilt action.

My wife and I then started dance lessons in the UK and although the edges are the same as the US pattern, the last two are skated as a slow run with a lilt on the first edge.

On a brief visit to Australia we were shown that the local version is different again (there is an additional lilt/run on two other edges in the middle of the pattern there if I remember correctly).

So it could just be that you are seeing two different national versions of the same dance.

[Mrs Redboots]

In the UK it is very definitely a slow run; it's the bit of the dance I have most problems with as if I can forget to hold the extension on each edge for three full beats, then do!

But you would be marked down, and almost definitely fail, if you didn't do it as a run, and hold the second extension as an under-push. Lilting is optional - if you can do it well, then you do it; if you bounce up and down the way my Husband does, then you don't. Not without an earful from me you don't, anyway!

[jskater49]

Sorry, but that's actually not necessarily true. Though I agree it's in the rulebook as not a crossover, you do have the option to do so. My coach teaches it without, but prefers to compete it with the crossover on the end as he believes it looks better. I freaked out when my coach told me this, but I've seen many other teams do so. He also said it's acceptable on tests, as he was teaching my partner since we're both tall and run out of room (*Note, I passed it NOT doing the crossovers). You can actually do two crossovers (one before the restart and one into the end pattern). It may depend on region, I'm not sure. But people do, acceptably, do it this way. :giveup:

When was this decided and where is it written that a cross over is okay? I"m not arguing with you because I've seen it enough to be convinced it seems to be acceptable, I'm just wondering how, if it's not in the rulebook it came to be an option?

j

[jenlyon60]

It was around 25+ years ago when I tested and passed my Preliminary Dances (then the Dutch/Canasta/Swing Dance).

[TreSk8sAZ]

When was this decided and where is it written that a cross over is okay? I"m not arguing with you because I've seen it enough to be convinced it seems to be acceptable, I'm just wondering how, if it's not in the rulebook it came to be an option?

j

To be quite honest, I haven't the slightest idea. I'll ask my coach, see if he knows.

[dooobedooo]

When was this decided and where is it written that a cross over is okay? I"m not arguing with you because I've seen it enough to be convinced it seems to be acceptable, I'm just wondering how, if it's not in the rulebook it came to be an option? j

How do you know that the original version was NOT the lilt-and-run version? This dance was invented in Colorado Springs in 1948 by George Muller. Suggest he might be the one to answer this question. IMO, the lilt-and-run move (what you are calling a crossover) is definitely better that just repeating LFO, RFI edges as earlier in the dance. As Mrs Redboots reminds us, in the UK tests, a very particular point is made about doing a beautiful underpush and leg extension in the run, and this accentuates the waltz character of the dance.

The thing that I find curious is that in my US rulebook, there is no step pattern table - this is why I am wondering if perhaps certain people (in the US) might have learnt the pattern from the rulebook without ever seeing the dance live, and didn't realise that it had a lilt and run in it .... :?:

As a side issue, dances can, and do, change. For example, in the Silver (Harris) Tango, the position of the mohawk changed quite recently (less than 10 years ago). The modern Foxtrot is hugely different from the original designed pattern. I'll see if I can track down my old (1930's?) pattern to show you ...

[jskater49]

It was around 25+ years ago when I tested and passed my Preliminary Dances (then the Dutch/Canasta/Swing Dance).

Twenty five years ago you did the end pattern with a crossover/run?

j

[jskater49]

[QUOTE=dooobedooo;313137]How do you know that the original version was NOT the lilt-and-run version? This dance was invented in Colorado Springs in 1948 by George Muller. Suggest he might be the one to answer this question. IMO, the lilt-and-run move (what you are calling a crossover) is definitely better that just repeating LFO, RFI edges as earlier in the dance. As Mrs Redboots reminds us, in the UK tests, a very particular point is made about doing a beautiful underpush and leg extension in the run, and this accentuates the waltz character of the dance.

QUOTE]

I dunno about the original, I just know this is a new thing around here. And I can assure you, as a beginner first dance, it's a cross over and there's nothing lilting or waltzy about it ;)

j

[jenlyon60]

Twenty five years ago you did the end pattern with a crossover/run?

j

Yep. And I wouldn't say it was a run/progressive. It was more of a "the foot happens to be crossing because the barrier is really close"

[Mrs Redboots]

And I can assure you, as a beginner first dance, it's a cross over and there's nothing lilting or waltzy about it ;) Here it's a level 2 dance. But if you're competing it, as I often am (not this year, thankfully), you really do have to make it lilty and waltzy and beautiful. It can be done, although arguably not by me - I've seen it!