PLEASE! Help needed with rink issues...

[BuggieMom]

Sorry, this is long!
I am starting to hate our rink...:frus:
We used to be a very supportive rink, but lately serious competitiveness has reared its ugly head, and I need some advice from people who might have experience with this.
My dd is 9yo and a great kid. She is kind and loving, adores everyone at the rink, does not rub in her accomplishments and celebrates the accomplishments of others. Everyone loved her back, until she started moving into their levels. In the last few competitions, she has beaten a few of the higher level (and older) skaters, once in FS and twice in Showcase. She has been working on Axel, and just Friday, landed her first one, with a quarter cheat. Two days later, she did it again, 3 more times. Now, the older girls are threatened, because a few of them have not landed it yet at all, with or without a 1/4 cheat. Last night I found her in tears in the locker room, because some of the older girls were telling her it didn't count because she had a quarter cheat. I guess they are hoping that by saying this, they will still have time to land theirs and "beat" her in this stupid axel race we have been forced into. I have been told by the coach, and have researched it myself, that a quarter cheat is allowed in the rulebook. And really, for this tiny little 9 yo child (she is the size of a 7yo), doing an axel, even cheated, was a huge accomplishment. It makes me wonder how many of our girls landed their first axel a bit cheated, yet the coach allowed it because 1/4 cheat is acceptable. Our coach is very realistic, and calls a spade a spade...she never implied that it was fully rotated, told dd that it was cheated, but solidly landed and stuck. But since a cheat is allowed, it counts. She was so proud of herself! And now, they are trying to take that joy away. I am not really upset with the kids, because I know that kind of talk originates from another source, namely their parents and other coaches, and they only repeat what they hear. The competitive atmosphere has gone up so much at our rink in the past year or so, with this as the topper, that I don't even want to step foot in there again. But since we have no other rink in town, this is it. Closer to competitons, the atmoshpere it downright hostile. We are already "loners" in that we are not one of the "in" families with one of the "in" coaches. Now, I want to isolate myself further, and avoid these people altogether...but that will affect my dd. Has anyone ever dealt with these issues before? I need help, I am so miserable, and my poor child feels like she has no friends...all because she has some talent. It is a sad thing when people have to tear down a child to make themselves and/or their kid feel better....thanks for any advice you have
BuggieMom

[Clarice]

I'm sorry you and your daughter are having such a tough time, and hope it passes quickly. I think many of us have been there to some degree at one time or another. It's a complicated situation, and I doubt I can really help much, but I'll throw out some disconnected thoughts - maybe there's something you can use in here somewhere.

Personal story: When my DD was learning her axel, she was often upset when others boasted that they were landing theirs. DD's coach preferred that she rotate her jumps completely and take the fall, believing that a cheat would be more difficult to correct in the long run. DD was not allowed to say that she had "landed her axel" until she had done so completely rotated, clean, and on the toe. I did talk to her about cheats, not to put the others down, but to help her deal with her own frustration and understand that everyone progresses differently. And, when she threw it back in the others' faces, I had to talk to her again about her behavior! In the end, they all got their axels and are still friends to this day.

Do be careful about the cheats, though. The cheated jump may indeed "count", but it's not a habit you want your skater getting into. She'll probably have to take her share of falls to get the thing clean. Sounds like your coach is on top of this. Axels tend to come and go as the kids perfect their technique. They'll also tend to disappear temporarily after growth spurts.

Some perspective - the axel is a milestone for all skaters and is indeed a huge accomplishment for your DD, but a 9 year old landing an axel is much closer to the norm than the exception. It's not so much that your skater has talent, but that the older skaters at your rink who do not have axels yet are behind, from a competitive perspective. At our rink we have a 7 year old landing doubles. That's exceptional talent - but even for her, no guarantee that she'll grow up to be anything special. It's good that you don't let your DD rub in her accomplishments, as that would only make everything worse.

Competitiveness is part of the sport. It can be a good thing, if kept within healthy parameters, because it motivates them all to work harder. It would be great if everyone could celebrate the different strengths each skater has - one might be ahead at jumps, while another has better spirals or spins, stronger edges, better presentation, or just plain works harder. It's all good, and it's certainly possible to have a lot of fun at skating without necessarily being a top competitor. It would be nice if all the coaches could find a way to help these skaters work together as a team so they could gain appreciation for each other's strengths - maybe do a group number for a show or something like that.

I wish I could help more! I certainly hear your frustration! Good luck to you and your skater, and may she experience many more successes!

[flippet]

Honestly, it sounds like kids being kids, to me. Nothing particular to skating in the least. Kids at this age don't like it when they're not the "best" at something. They often feel they need to be the "best" in order to be any good at all. It's a stage, they'll all get through it.

[jskater49]

Fortunately my daughter was in a club where the kids were encouraged to support one another - it helped that it was a small club --with one coach --and you learned right away to compete against your friends.

Let me offer some thoughts though...I know you love your kid and I'm sure she is as sweet as you say..but let me caution you against the thinking that she is all innocent and EVERYONE else is mean and jealous because she is better than them.

One thing I noticed is that the girls tend to resent boasting. There's kind of a culture thing in figure skating and it is a girl thing - to down play your self - "oh thanks, I skated terrible though" I'm not saying I think this is great for girls self-esteem, but it is the culture and you risk being put in your place if you overstep it. Sometimes young girls get excited about how well they did and it is perceived as boasting...and the others will say "yea but it was cheated" - not because they are jealous or mean, but it is the way of teaching the culture - "we don't brag about our cheated jumps here"

You could isolate yourself, and try to avoid the others...or you could help her learn the culture...especially if she is better than the others and winning more, help her show them that she struggles like they do - help her to find ways that she has things in common with the other girls, and downplay the areas in which she is superior. Encourage her to praise the other girls...admire something they can do that she can't, congratulate them. Have her say "Oh I know it was cheated but I'll take it for now!" cheerfully.

now I know this is really anti-feminist stuff and I don't recommend putting yourself down as a way of life...but it might help her navigate here way through the politics of skating.

J

[peanutskates]

buggiemom-

although this is on a lower level, your situation sounds a little bit like my own when I first started lessons. so I will tell you what happened and how I got through it.

Basically, I know 3 girls from school who skate on a higher level than me (not by a LOT, but still). yet they still managed to see me as competition. they told me that I couldn't skate at all, that I was doing everything wrong. When I was teaching myself the crossover they told me it was competely "spazzy". (BTW I passed the crossover with flying colours last week...). anyway.

it really annoyed me and got me down at first... i started to wonder whether I really was that good at skating. but then I thought - this is what I love doing, and why should they spoil it? even if I can't skate, or not doing it properly, I will get taught soon; I can do this.

well 6 weeks later, 2 of them are on level 9, one of them is level 7 and I am starting level 6. six weeks ago, 2 were doing level 8 and one level 6. go figure. what I'm trying to say is; don't let others get your dd down. just tell her that cheat or no cheat, she is doing really well and she'll learn how to do it perfectly anyway.

(a piece of advice stolen from someone on this board): if they are telling her she can't do it at all, she could just say "yeah, it's a wonder im not just sitting on the ice all of the time" laugh and walk away.

or if they are getting really aggressive, she can just say, well can you help me improve at all? and if they say yes - great she can improve and make them feel good abouth themselves. if they say no - well boviously they don't even know what they're talking about.

if she gets upset or angry, tell her to channel her emotions into improving her skating. she will show them all one day.

good luck :)

[Emberchyld]

Fortunately, this is not unique to skating and, if nothing else, will be a good life lesson. I was an overweight, bookworm girl, and still had to deal with meanness and competitiveness-- in the end, I know it made me stronger, especially since my parents taught me how to take the high road.

If you can get yourself to a bookstore that carries "Dance Spirit" magazine, this month's (March) issue has a great article on dealing with "mean girls" and how not to be a "mean girl". They even talk about one dance school that made itself a negativity-free zone. If this is a major problem with the figure skating populace at your rink, they can look into the possibility of making the rink a similar "negativity free zone".

Also, for real world examples of dealing with being a girl in this "mean/nice girl" world, I'd suggest "Queen Bees and Wannabees" (and the movie that Tina Fey wrote after reading that book: "Mean Girls")-- great messages about how to deal with mean girls (and what's really going through their heads) without becoming a mean girl.

[BuggieMom]

Thanks for all the replies, I really like the advice from peanutskates that she ask them to help her. I will tell her to do that.
I know that a 9yo doing an axel is the norm rather than the exception, I wasn't implying that her talents are exceptional, but knowing that axel is the milestone, it is a huge accomplishment for her, personally. I am realistic about her abilities. She is not going to the Olympics, she is not a child prodigy, but she is pretty good, and at our rink, she is the youngest at her level.
I am also not implying that she has suddenly become "better" than these girls. A cheated axel is still cheated, but as jskater said, we'll take it for now. We have never called it more than a cheated axel, but, in the end, it still counts. It is just a step toward a fully rotated axel, and my dd knows that she still has that goal ahead. But after all the months of hard work, it is worth a pat on the back, to be sure. A little encouragement would've been nice, but maybe I have gotten a taste of the real world, and it doesn't taste good.
We are not a big rink. None of our girls are Olympians, we have no Olympic level coaches. Knowing that, it just seems we should be a little better than this, a little closer than this. I know that one can be mean and competitive without aiming for the Olympics, it is just so sad to me that I have to teach my daughter how very much she needs to guard her own heart around those she considers sisters and friends. She looks up to these girls as big sisters. We homeschool, and these girls are her friends and her social network. I guess we were expecting too much. It is a life lesson for sure, it just hurts so much to watch your child learn it. Really, this is only the latest in a series of hurts that has just started in the past year, and it is getting to me. I am afraid she will quit skating, not because she is not interested, but because her love for it will be trampled by the pettiness of others. We do not act this way. We live by the golden rule and treat others as better than ourselves. I guess I am just naive in thinking that most others will do the same.
I know...welcome to the real world.
I still would appreciate any advice you have!
Thanks for letting me whine:cry:

[cathrl]

I'm sorry this has upset you and your daughter - but I think it's most likely to be a misunderstanding.

There's a difference between "having an axel", and the competition rule that if it's a bit underrotated it counts. I do wonder whether the older girls are trying to explain that to your daughter and not being too diplomatic about it. But I'm really surprised that your daughter's coach told her she'd landed an axel if she's a whole quarter turn short. I remember my daughter's coach out there on the ice, pointing out tiny "v" marks on her landing, less than 1/8 of a turn, saying she didn't quite have it yet. And I'm quite sure that if a kid who was a full quarter turn short had told mine at that stage that she had her axel, she would have told her she didn't in no uncertain terms. Not to say that what your DD has managed isn't an achievement - axels are very, very hard, even cheated ones. But in terms of saying she has a jump - she doesn't. Not yet.

If she's really having a hard time with the older girls, are there no younger ones she can talk to / practice with instead? There must be other eight and nine year olds working on axels, surely, even if she's currently the most advanced. Ten/eleven/twelve is exactly the sort of age when the older ones start feeling a bit more grown up, they're hitting puberty, and they look down on the littler ones. There's nothing more annoying for a ten year old than alternately losing to a younger kid and "only winning because the other one's so tiny". They'll grow out of it in a few months. Have her go skate / play with the eight year olds for a while. If she's that popular, they'll love her, and the up-and-coming ones will keep her on her toes. Plus it will be much better for her than if she gets in the habit of always having the excuse of being the smallest.

Catherine, mum of ten year old.

[Sessy]

Y'know... Even world champions have been known to cheat their axels.

[dooobedooo]

.....if she gets upset or angry, tell her to channel her emotions into improving her skating. she will show them all one day....

There's a great saying: "Don't hate, concentrate" !!

[Tennisany1]

...None of our girls are Olympians, we have no Olympic level coaches. ...

I can't add much to the advice given, except, just because you know the other kids aren't going to the Olympics doesn't mean they know. I have never seen a sport where the parent and kids have such warped views of reality as they do in skating. I'm all for kids having dreams, but as I've said before, the parents need to keep their feet firmly planted on the ground. It is quite possible that many of these older girls do think they are going to the Olympics and having a much younger child landing a cheated axel would be very threatening to them. It doesn't excuse nastiness but it may explain it.

[BuggieMom]

Thanks Sessy! And thank you Tennisany...sometimes just having some kind of explaination helps me know how to deal with these issues.
Please, don't take this bad, but I didn't come here to debate whether or not my dd landed an axel. But since the cheated/not cheated issue is what brought about our problems, it will naturally be debated. Just a little clarification: Coach didn't say she landed an axel, she said she landed a 1/4 cheated axel, with the goal of a fully rotated axel still to be landed. She has never said that it was more than it was. But since, as it says in the ISU rulebook (quoting) "there needs to be more than 1/4 revolution missing" for a jump to be considered cheated and not acheived. According to the rulebook, the jump was achieved, however imperfect it was. As a coach, I can see how one would not want a student to rest on her laurels and consider the thing licked. But that is what it says, like it or not. I consider my daughter to have landed her first 1/4 cheated axel, nothing more, nothing less. And as Sessy said, even world champs cheat an axel sometimes...if the rule works for them, it works for my kid for right now. And we/she has never said she "has" her axel. It will take a long time to consistantly, and fully, have her axel, and then she can say she "has" an axel.
Cheated axels are not her goal, but it was a pretty good start. I will give my child her small victory, knowing as I do that she realizes she has the further goal of a fully rotated axel.
I just want her to be able to achieve something without feeling like the rink is mad at her, and if they are, give her some good advice as to how to deal with it.

[Sessy]

Well you know what the problem is with 1/4th cheated axels? Friend of mine lands 1/4th cheated in practice, and like 1/3rd cheated in competition and then it's downgraded to a waltz jump. That's the problem. But it's still an achievement anyway and of course they're jealous if they can't do it!

But, you know, at some point, if you don't react to it, it stops...
You know I started skating at 20 and last spring, at 21 I got my toe-loop, salchow, flip and loop within like 2 months of eachother and considering I'd just joined the club I skate at and I wasn't with any club before, and considering I was bumped up from the beginner classes straight to the group that does (minor) competitions, well...
Suddenly, some of the girls got nervous.
Occasionally when I landed my flip they'd skate REALLY close by, startling me, and then yell things like "Ya didn't cross yer legs!" or "Can't you do it with speed?". First I got annoyed, then I started crossing my legs and jumping with speed. Then, basically, in the changing room I was hearing - for a while - nothing but "You know, if you'd started earlyer, maybe you'd amount to something. Like, fifteen years earlyer."
The correct answer to that, I discovered is, "I know." And the correct answer to everything else is either praising (I wish I were like you style) their accomplishments or completely ignoring (literally pretending not to hear) what they have to say - as somebody indeed remarked. And, I guess I also earned some respect once they realized I was studying in university and working and skating and had a boyfriend and just finished my bachelor thesis and do my own groceries, make my own costumes, live by myself (and decide what time to go to sleep), have a driver's license, stuff like that - you know all the stuff that seems really cool to them right now (frankly, it's not cool: I'd really like a mom to drive me to the rink every day and I'd like homework to be the greatest of my problems, lol!)
All I hear occasionally now is like, "Did you get your lutz yet? Was it clean?" or "So, I hear you started working on your axel, how do you like it now?" Which is far less hateful and probably mostly just curiosity. Maybe they're also at ease because I didn't land the axel the first time I tried or something, maybe they were worried about that.

But you know, I've got the superb advantage that I'm 10 years older than they are, and I'm past all the insecurities of puberty. I'm more mentally stable, I can just think like, "WHATEVER, kid - boy am I glad I'm not in highschool anymore!" And you know - everybody in highschool was like that, so I've got a few years of experience dealing with that sort of behaviour too and I know it is just the age, and I know deep inside it's insecurity on their part and I just sort of see straight through that.

Part of the problem here is that children at ages like 11-16 are extremely insecure and to make themselves feel more secure, they put others down. Those other girls might already be bothered by that and your daughter not yet, and stuff.

And, to me, their opinion doesn't count at all, so it doesn't make me insecure what they have to say either.

I'm not sure your daughter has the mental stability to be able to ignore them that way. Children and young teenagers care far more what others think about them.

[flippet]

TWe homeschool, and these girls are her friends and her social network. I guess we were expecting too much. It is a life lesson for sure, it just hurts so much to watch your child learn it.



Ah. Now my confusion at your reaction makes sense. I was thinking that surely this wasn't your first exposure to how kids at this age can be mean/undiplomatic, and are always trying to one-up each other---no matter the topic area. I thought for sure you'd have seen it happening at school. But if you homeschool, it makes sense.

I just want to be sure that you don't tie the behavior to skating, because it would happen in some area, regardless. If your daughter got 100% on the spelling test, and the other girls got less, it would happen there. It doesn't matter. One-upmanship and put-downs are de rigeur at this age.

That doesn't mean that you have to take it on the chin, and the other suggestions for helping your daughter deal with it are good ones. But if it wasn't skating, it would be something else. The only way to avoid it would be to keep your daughter away from other children entirely, and of course that won't and shouldn't happen! It's just a life lesson, as you said.

I am afraid she will quit skating, not because she is not interested, but because her love for it will be trampled by the pettiness of others.

Try to help her understand that it's not skating that's doing this, and that she shouldn't quit a sport she loves because of it. Quitting won't erase pettiness from your life--you just need to learn how to deal with it or overcome it, no matter where you find it.

[Sessy]

Indeed flippet!
One time, in highschool, I got an good mark on a test the rest of the class failed, that afternoon my bike tires were cut up with a knife!!!

Somebody else I know who was getting straight A's and wasn't very social and everybody's friend but more of a geek, was pushed out of a window and as a result from the fall, she lost part of the functionality in her arm!

It would happen just the same at school, absolutely.


BTW, when I was dancing, during warm-up for competitions, it was more of a rule than an exception for the lady to step with her high heel on some other lady's middle of the foot. That leaves giant blue spots and hurts like hell, making it difficult to dance for a while. There's even an entire school in the region who is famous for their couples doing nothing but stamping on other people's feet and "accidently" kicking shins... It's in every sport.

[BuggieMom]

Thanks for the fantastic posts! Except that part about the girl being pushed out a window...that's about the LAST thing I want to hear right now!:)
Yes, we are at a social disadvantage because we homeschool, if you can call never having dealt with pettiness and one-upmanship a disadvantage! We have not run up against this kind of behavior, because we usually hang out with other homeschool families (who tend to treat each other better!) or with people from church, who tend to have the same value systems that we do...I literally have been shocked, surprised, and feel like I've been kicked in the gut by this behavior. Achievement has always been met by congratulations, hugs, affirmations and encouagement...whether it was my child or anothers. I expected others to act the same way, and that expectation was wrong. She does not have the skills to deal with this behavior, she is 9 and not exposed to the abuse that the others get on a daily basis in public school. She has no coping skills for this, and I really don't know what to tell her about how to deal with it. I dont want her to hurt, but I cannot protect her always, much as I want. I feel like I failed her because I have not prepared her for what is happening, really, I never thought it would happen. Like I said in a previous post, I guess I am just naive! Yes this might be the norm for skating (or just in life), but it is not the norm for us, and since it seems to be escalating as she progresses, I need to know what has worked for others and what else in the world I can expect. She has always been so supportive of others, that is how we have raised her, and she is just so hurt that others are not the same way towards her...or if they have been, suddenly, they are not.
I also don't know how to deal with the other parents and coaches sometimes. I feel like an alien in this world of skating. I guess the advice that if I don't react to it it stops, sounds like a good course of action. I personally have been so hurt by this, knowing that the women I thought were friends are more than likely behind all this talk. I have always been so happy for their kids, why can't they just be happy for mine? I know, again, welcome to the real world. It is either learn to deal with it, or find a deserted island...really the island sounds like a better idea, as long as there's a rink there!LOL!
Thanks agin for the great advice..keep it coming, I'll take all I can get!

[3skatekiddos]

I also don't know how to deal with the other parents and coaches sometimes. I feel like an alien in this world of skating. I guess the advice that if I don't react to it it stops, sounds like a good course of action. I personally have been so hurt by this, knowing that the women I thought were friends are more than likely behind all this talk. I have always been so happy for their kids, why can't they just be happy for mine? I know, again, welcome to the real world. It is either learn to deal with it, or find a deserted island...really the island sounds like a better idea, as long as there's a rink there!LOL!

[Isk8NYC]

I also don't know how to deal with the other parents and coaches sometimes. I feel like an alien in this world of skating. It's not just skating. I stopped coaching for two recreational swimming teams for this very reason. The parents and kids involved with the swim programs were insane in the same way. I don't know about boys, because the teams I coached were all-girls, but the same one-upsmanship went on during practices, at meets. Theywould try to psych out their teammates DURING THE MEET!

The parents saw nothing wrong with this, in fact they put their DDs into US Swimming programs, never sent them to a USS meet, but brought them to the rec league meets to dominate and win. (The rec practices weren't challenging enough, so they just came to the meets and expected to have the kids swim the maximum events.) Sportsmanship was a foreign concept to these people.

This method was going to earn them a swimming scholarship for college, don't you know? Yeah, right: almost every one of the girls stopped swimming once they reached high school. I think the only girls still swimming for their HS teams are the ones whose parents were bigshot swimmers and wouldn't let them quit or the rec league kids who put up with the nonsense through grade school. I love the irony of seeing my former rec swimmers' names in the paper regularly!

Sorry, just needed to state that it's not just skating. As a skating coach, I REFUSE to tolerate poor sportsmanship. My skaters DO wish each other and their competitors good luck, support each other during practices, and most of all, enjoy the experience. I've gone out of my way to make sure they say "sorry" if they cut someone off during a freestyle/warmup, and apologize for every collision, whether they caused it or not.

You have to teach your daughter and yourself some methods to defuse the situation. I've taught my own kids to laugh it off and make jokes to keep things from getting too tense. The phrase "Let's all just get along" is very important to remember.

[Isk8NYC]

Venting aside, here are a few techniques:

Don't brag or boast, except on this board. We love bragging parents.
Other parents get jealous and say stupid things, usually behind your back.

Set a tone of support for yourself: compliment other parents for their kids' achievements. Compliment the skater, too.
(I know you probably already do this, but you have to make it obvious.)

Consider a "cheat" to be a learning experience on the way to a clean technique. Teach your daughter that she's almost there!

Have your daughter ask one of the older girls to help her with something, if that girl does it well. She doesn't have to actually KEEP the advice, just try to build a bridge.

There's an article somewhere (maybe the USFSA site?) for parents about hanging out and chatting during practices. The parents with the nicest kids at our rink are the ones reading books while they wait, not fueling the nasty mill.

[CaraSkates]

Sorry, just needed to state that it's not just skating. As a skating coach, I REFUSE to tolerate poor sportsmanship. My skaters DO wish each other and their competitors good luck, support each other during practices, and most of all, enjoy the experience. I've gone out of my way to make sure they say "sorry" if they cut someone off during a freestyle/warmup, and apologize for every collision, whether they caused it or not.

You have to teach your daughter and yourself some methods to defuse the situation. I've taught my own kids to laugh it off and make jokes to keep things from getting too tense. The phrase "Let's all just get along" is very important to remember.

This is what my coach does. We're a very small rink, no official USFS club (individual members!) with only two coaches and a group of girls close in level. We've been taught that competing against your friends does happen. You just have to skate your best, hope your friend skates her best and let the judges decide and be happy for whoever wins. This is a little easier for the older girls (12-19) than the 10yos but they are mostly managing. Last year my one very good friend (she was 11, I was 16) and I were in the same group for both freestyle and compulsories. She beat me in freestyle and I clapped just as hard at her award ceremony as I would have if we weren't in the same group. I didn't even medal that time but I was still happy for her. The next morning I beat her in compulsories and she was happy for me. Even if it hadn't worked out that way we still would have been happy for each other. Our coach won't stand for ANY getting upset over being in the same group as a friend. Some of the competitions around here are small and we do end up in the same group.

We did have a problem at the last competition, with three girls who are all at the same level (but were in different groups) being jealous of the one girl winning and so on but our coach nipped that in the bud. It turned out it was more the mothers than the girls. The girls were content to cheer their buddies on. Everyone at my rink is so close and I know that is very unusual but I think it is because we only have about 9 or 10 competitive skaters and we're all pretty much best friends. The youngest is 10, the oldest 19 and everyone gets along. Most of the time. ;)

[cathrl]

My skaters DO wish each other and their competitors good luck, support each other during practices, and most of all, enjoy the experience. I've gone out of my way to make sure they say "sorry" if they cut someone off during a freestyle/warmup, and apologize for every collision, whether they caused it or not.

Very glad to see this, because so many don't. My daughter's not doing figure competitions at the moment because she hurt her knee badly last year, but when she did, she invariably came last. I insisted that she always went to congratulate the winner. She could have her howl in the car on the way home.

Now she's only doing solo ice dance, and I'd have to say it's been a breath of fresh air. The first competition I took her to, one of the older girls from another rink, who we'd never seen before ever, said "have you done this before?" and when my daughter said no, explained to her about going to see the judges at the start, about how they have a silent bit at the start of the compulsory warmup then play the music later on, said what a nice dress she had and so on. After figure competitions, I was in shock.

This child proceeded to cheer on my daughter and all the other little ones, as did pretty much all the other competitors. And then went out there and won. And everyone cheered.

(To the original poster)

Nice kids can win. But - and this is hard to watch as a parent - they do have to learn that they will get people being mean who are jealous of their success, and it's much better that they learn it over something which, when it comes down to it, really doesn't matter (like kids reducing them to tears over an axel) than if they encounter it for the very first time over something vitally important (at college, or in their first job). It doesn't matter how well they do academically, or sporting-wise, if they can't cope with other people. They have to be able to have their own values and standards without alienating those who don't. It's so very hard. But now that your daughter has experienced unjustified nastiness, she can learn to handle it with you there to support her. Not having learnt how to handle it at school is a disadvantage, there's no two ways about it. But with your help, not an insurmountable one.

[flippet]

Something else that just occurred to me....do you only see these girls at the rink? If your daughter wants to truly count them as *friends*, they need to have more in common than a sport, which is by nature competitive. Right now, their 'friendship' is mostly about what they can do, rather than who they are.

If you're inclined, try inviting them over (maybe one at a time, if they're already a 'group'), so the kids can get to know each other outside the realm of skating. I would think that kids that have more commonalities tying them to each other would be somewhat more supportive of each other, since it's not all about one thing.

[BuggieMom]

Isk8NYC, can you remember where that article you mentioned is? I would love to read it...
Yes, we have been invited many of these girls over, tried to develop relationships with them outside the rink. In fact, one of the older girls who was saying these things is her "big skater"...we have a big skater/little skater program to help bridge the gap between these girls, and this one was my dd's big skater. We have hung out with her, they've gone to movies, the mall, many non skating activities. (The only other girl that is her age and close to her level, she tried being really good friends with, but this child is SOOOO mean, like evil mean to her, that she backed off trying to have a real friendship with her.) The fact that the one girl was her big skater is probably what broke her heart.
The nasty mill is alive and well at the rink. Tonight, the fitness coach stopped me and heard that I had a problem with him, he was really angry at me. Thing is, I don't have a problem with him...never have. Once we talked it through, we discovered that it was just someone at the rink spreading hate about me. He ended up apologizing and giving me a hug. I truly can't stand this stuff.
Emberchyld suggested I read a book called Queen Bee and the Wannabes. I have bought it. The same author has a book called Queen Bee Moms and Kingpin Dads...subtitled "How to Deal with Difficult Parents in your Daughters Life" I am already halfway throught it for the second time, getting out the highlighter, and I believe it should be handed out with every first set of skates purchased (or during Kindergarten roundup!) This has given me some real insight into what drives people to act the way they do. I still dont really know how to deal with it, but I am learning. I refuse to let others steal my, or my dd's, joy! (stamping foot on ground!)
Again, I thank you for the insight,feel free to add more!

[Sessy]

Nonono buggie mom you can't *just* ignore it, ignoring the biting comments is only a part of it okay? All the other advise given by others is also very important.

I'm just saying this cuz my mom and teachers felt the pestering in highschool would go away if I "just ignored it" and that didn't work, it's a more complex thing.


Also, isolating your child is about the worst thing you can do right now. The same behaviour is present in adult society, it's just less visible, but if you've never learned to recognize it in the visible, teenage form, you'll not be able to recognize it in adult life. And I'm thinking social skills will help your kid in the rest of her life more than even a double axel.

I quit playing the piano - and I played extremely well, I would almost certainly have gone to conservatorium if I didn't - partially because of highschool. I was forced to perform at every thing held at our highschool by my teacher and of course, I'd get very biting remarks about it from the classmates who hated me already anyway. Eventually I had a blackout on stage, pysched myself out and couldn't even see a piano without shaking hands, boinking heartbeat and sweaty palms (that lasted for about 6 years, as it turned out eventually) - so I quit playing - I was like 13 when I did.
I don't actually regret quitting to play the piano. I learned to stand up for myself, say NO to teachers, coaches, parents, I learned to differentiate between what I want and what my mother wants and what my coach wants and what my teacher wants like INSTANTLY after I quit playing because of that. And eventually, I know some people who went and did conservatorium... They make about a third of the money that I will even if I don't make a career with the education I'm following.
And I learned a thing or two about audience... One boy in our class also played the piano, but Fuer Elise was about the top of his abilities. However, he was popular in highschool, and his fuer elises were received faaaaaaaaaaaar better than the more difficult ones of my grieg and rachmaninov pieces. In terms of what people tell you, it's more important whether they like you than how well you really did perform. And you know, I was the bookworm fat kid (later: anorexia kid) with the glasses and the huge gap between the two front teeth in ugly clothing my mother picked... With a mother who used to tell everybody how much better her child was than everybody else's. Receipy for disaster.

As far as I know, the popular kid is still playing piano and probably enjoying it too... So it's not about performance in the end, or how well you do or whether you can do something or can't, it's about how much joy you have in the process and whether or not you can be liked by your audience and surrounding you people.

[Isk8NYC]

Isk8NYC, can you remember where that article you mentioned is? I would love to read it...I've started a sticky thread for Parent reference links in this forum. I'll add to it as I find more articles, but I believe the one I was thinking about is the USFSA "Parent Survival Guide." (Appropriate since people often feel like they're being attacked, huh? ;) )

Here's the STICKY THREAD (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=22977).

[peanutskates]

One thing I've just thought of

Don't get too involved, BuggieMom. Try and let your dd handle as much of this as possible.

Also - about inviting these girls over:

If they are older than your dd, they might not enjoy hanging around with her and might dislike her even more. Not every 12> year old would like to come round an 8/9 yr old's house to "hang out". They have their own interests. Now I don't know your daughter personally, but there are 2 types of teens, those who would hang out with her regardless of an age gap, and those who would not be seen dead with her just because they're older. I would advise against inviting them over unless your dd wants them to, but even then exercise caution.

But as I said, just try and let your dd sort it out, and of course try using my previous advice. Do not try and sort it all out for her because then she is losing important life lessons and they will not respect her if every time they say something to her she runs to Mommy.

Do tell me when/if you've tried my forementioned advice and how it worked.

[Morgail]

I don't know if this is available at your rink, or if you have the time or resources for it, but have you considered having your daughter try out for a synchro team? I never had any friends at my rink until I joined a team (then it was called a precision team). Since skating is such an individual sport, joining a synchro team would provide an entirely new - team - atmosphere. On a team, you have to either get along or at least put differences aside to succeed. It might also be a way for your daughter to meet skaters she doesn't know yet. If the girls who are bothering her are on the team, they might get to know her better and cut out the teasing. Joining a team made my skating experience as a kid so much nicer. While I was never really good friends with the girls on my team (we were more like skating buddies, I guess), team members always cheered each other on during singles events at competitions and talked at the rink when we were skating at the same time. Plus, the extra practice and the more intricate footwork improved my individual skating skills:)

[mikawendy]

I don't know if this is available at your rink, or if you have the time or resources for it, but have you considered having your daughter try out for a synchro team? I never had any friends at my rink until I joined a team (then it was called a precision team). Since skating is such an individual sport, joining a synchro team would provide an entirely new - team - atmosphere. On a team, you have to either get along or at least put differences aside to succeed. It might also be a way for your daughter to meet skaters she doesn't know yet. If the girls who are bothering her are on the team, they might get to know her better and cut out the teasing. Joining a team made my skating experience as a kid so much nicer. While I was never really good friends with the girls on my team (we were more like skating buddies, I guess), team members always cheered each other on during singles events at competitions and talked at the rink when we were skating at the same time. Plus, the extra practice and the more intricate footwork improved my individual skating skills:)

I'll second that for supportiveness from synchro team members. I don't do synchro, but there are a few teams at one rink I skate at. During a very empty club ice session one time, they were practicing, and then I put on my music to do a run through. They all said, ooo, do you want an audience, and clapped and cheered for my run through even though it was slow, scratchy, and had a few mistakes in it. I also did group lessons with a bunch of those girls who now do synchro, and they're still very friendly. It's nice to see them coming along in the sport--some of them are accomplished ice dancers or high on their moves tests now, too.