A note for parents w/ kids in Basic Skills competitions

[phoenix]

**Kind of long and rant-y**

I've seen a few threads lately about very young kids in Basic Skills competitions, who didn't do very well, and it has made the parent wonder whether they should keep skating/whether they should take more lessons/practice more/change coaches/etc.

All the advice given in those threads has been very good so I won't repeat that....but there's something I wanted to add, which parents may or may not be aware of.

Depending on the competition and more importantly, the club/organizers, the judges MAY NOT BE ACTUAL SKATING JUDGES. At my area's yearly basic skills competitions, they use whoever is available---mostly the other LTS teachers/coaches, who they get to volunteer some time. But I've also seen them use some of the higher level skaters who are mid-late teens, and in one case last year, the mother of a skater who was not even a skater herself!

So basically, you get a panel of judges who aren't used to judging, may or may not even be aware of the requirements/restrictions, and who are really winging it. NOW-----here's the thing: apart from the mom who was thrown in because they were desparate & needed another body there, IMO that's all okay.

BECAUSE: (and I can't stress this strongly enough) For the skaters, a basic skills comeptition is supposed to be very low key, very non-stressful, supposed-to-be-fun day where you get to wear a pretty dress, have the ice to yourself, and show off to the crowd. It's for the experience of going out there to get used to the idea of people watching you. It's to have a program with music, and memorize steps, and learn to put all their elements together with footwork and ice coverage, which is much harder than just doing elements alone. It's good for the kids to see what other kids are doing, and in that sense can be a good motivator. But their placement IS NOT a good indication of whether they're going to be "good" at the sport, or whether the coach should be fired, or if they need another hour of lessons every week---if for no other reason than that the judges may not even have a good handle on what they're doing!

The other thing to remember here, is that at this very low level, there often/usually is one clear winner, who is stronger than the others, & the rest often are closer in ability (or lack thereof!)....so it's very hard to choose placement order. One judge may like that someone used their arms & tried to do some presentation....another judge may like that someone had a little more speed....another may like that one smiled & looked like they were really enjoying themselves...... You often have bigger girls mixed in with littler girls, so the big ones often place better because they're simply stronger by default.

So you see, a skater's placement really means nothing at this level....it's just for fun, for the experience, etc. Don't worry about placements sending a message until you're at Regionals or a big club competition, and your skater is at least at Preliminary level (for those who don't know, that's way way above group class level--they're doing axels & doubles).

Beginning parents have no way of knowing this if no one tells them. So I hope this might help.

**puts soap box away now**

Other coaches, please chime in if you agree/disagree here. I'm just saying this is the state of these competitions in my area.

[Isk8NYC]

Our in-house Basic Skills competition is judged by coaches who don't have students in the competition. In a pinch, we'll use one of our in-house coaches as judges, but we won't let them judge if they have students entered in a particular event. We do get a token fee, just to cover travel costs and time. (And all the hot drinks we want/need!) This is true for the three rinks in my area that have in-house Basic Skills competitions.

I can't speak for the other competitions, but I'm sure it's the same as ours and the ISI - the coaches volunteer to be judges. A knowledgeable parent might be called on in a pinch, but sounds like that example was out of the ordinary for you, too. To teach Basic Skills, you must know what the test standards are, right? Makes sense to have them as judges, except I don't think there are any education/certification for Basic Skills comp judges.

That's different from ISI competitions. The ISI requires each rink/club to provide one judge for every five skaters entered from that rink/club. Each judging volunteer MUST have passed the appropriate judges' test for the level they judge. (For example, I can't judge synchro or any group productions because I've not taken that test as yet.) The ISI seminars and workshops review the standards and conduct trial video judging to educate the judges.

Since every person is different, you have to realize that every JUDGE is different. Some are more demanding and use the lower end of the scoring scale. "No one is perfect," so to speak. Others, (like me!) are more easygoing and rank a bit higher, but place skaters within the point range allowed, using the whole range. As long as each judge is consistent, it's fine.

I don't know how to say this nicely. Some competitions are well-organized and the skaters really enjoy themselves. Very few judging errors at those, usually. (There's always a chance of a mistake.)

There are other competitions that I dissuade skaters from entering because I didn't like the feel of the competition. Maybe it was too serious, too disorganized, the judging seemed "off" or the staff wasn't helpful/nice. Perhaps there were scoring errors, accidental or maybe not... I agree with Phoenix: these competitions should be low-key and fun! A nice dress, not a designer original. If you can do an axel, you probably shouldn't be skating Basic Skills.

In the end, I'm looking to have my skaters enjoy skating and I don't want them to be turned off. Therefore, I select which competitions I will take skaters to each season.

[jskater49]

In response to the above, as one of those people who is "not really a judge" but has judged basic skills (in my defense, I do skate, I have trial judged, I've followed skating for years and I do know the rules) - it is true that at the low basic skills level, it is very hard to pick a winner - so one skater can stop but she can't do swizzles to save her life and the other girl can do swizzles but she can't do a two foot turn and she sort of stops ... and so on and it's really just my opinion that a good stop is better than a swizzle. But another judge can just as easily prefer a good turn. And when it comes to artistic, competitions, forget it - that's just personal opinion.

And in my defense as just a parent who got thrown in, my placements were almost always in line with the other "real judges"

Also as a parent of a skater (Intermediate) you really have to learn to take all placements with a grain of salt. My daughter has skated terrible and medaled because everyone else was worse, and finished last with a clean program because they did harder stuff than her. She is much prouder of the clean program than the medal.

And if you find yourself over involved, you probably should take up skating yourself.
J

J

[Isk8NYC]

And in my defense as just a parent who got thrown in, my placements were almost always in line with the other "real judges."I'm sure you did fine, given your background. That's not "thrown in," that's "begged for." LOL

I learned to judge through ISI, so it was much more formal with reviews, tests, and trial judging. I judged ISI before I ever did a Basic Skills competition. I've never seen a parent judge who wasn't also a coach, so forgive my ignorance.

Did you prepare in advance to judge Basic Skills, J? You mentioned trial judging - was that for the USFSA standard tests or Basic Skills itself?

[jskater49]

Other than teaching basic skills, I never learned judging for basic skills, I trail judged for USFSA tests. I couldn't keep it up because "m a single mom and I just couldn't keep traveling for all these tests and competitions. I figure it can be something to do after I retire.

I'll be one of the "not real" judges at again in a month.

J

[phoenix]

I've been a "not real" judge several times. My point was not that it's a problem; rather, that parents don't always realize this, and get very concerned over marks given at these competitions. Judging a competition isn't just being able to critique a skater....I found it difficult to remember what one girl had done 5 skaters later.....hard to keep an eye on the score sheet while still watching the skater so as not to miss anything.....hard to know whether that 1/2 flip was allowed at XX level, etc. It's just not something I was used to doing, a set of skills I had never had to develop. These sorts of things could cause discrepancies in judging that having a trained panel of judges might avoid.

I'm also not saying the judging at the comps is necessarily wrong or bad; I'm just saying the results don't need to weigh so heavily on people's minds as they sometimes seem to.

To my knowledge, USFS doesn't offer judging training for basic skills like ISI does.

[jskater49]

Well I think your point is really true for any competition. I think competitions are good for developing nerves, to have a goal to practice for, to learn to be a good sport, to go with friends and cheer them, on but I don't think they really say anything about how good a skater you are. Some levels there is sooo much sandbagging, coming in last doesn't mean you are no good and winning a lot just may mean it is time to step up a level.

I just won a gold medal at a recent competition, but it was only because one of the women who was to be in my group moved up to the next level. She would have beaten me easily. If she had been there, I'd have taken silver. Since she wasn't, I got gold. Says absoulutely nothing about how I skated. (

J

[Mrs Redboots]

At our rink, for that sort of competition, we usually ask two or three of the more advanced skaters to judge. This is good for them, as it gives them the "other side"'s point of view, and of course, all the kids admire them anyway.

[Logan3]

Clueless = me

I can not speak for everyone but some parents ask questions because they do not know much about the figure skating world. It is unfair to immediately classify them as obsessed parents that live their dreams through their kids and only want their kids place first etc. I think for some of us there is a learning curve in how to be a parent of a skating kid. Please have patience:?? . I love this forum and all of your advice and it helps me enormously. For me is a great resource.

[phoenix]

I'm sorry if I came across sounding like I thought everyone is a crazy skating parent; that wasn't my intent! I just figured some of this info wasn't passed along to parents, so how could you know? I don't think we as coaches always do a good job of putting things into perspective before/after a competition....and since basic skills is most people's first experience with any of that, I hoped to shed some light on the situation.

[Logan3]

I am glad you posted! That was good information. I just feel guilty that I got so emotional after my dd's comp. and I needed to explain. She skates for a recreational club , NOT a real skating club and often I am on my own and totally clueless of what is going on.

[sk8ermom]

Great post about the skills competitions, I have brought my 2 kids done from canada for these competitions as we don't have this sort of competition in our section. These are great lowkey events and my kids have fun. The ones that we have been in all kids got medals-great! We stay in a hotel and have a blast. For my son (in snowplow sam) it was a great way to keep him working this year. However I do see some parents who take this way to serious. It is FUN. Focus on how they skate not what they place. Placements at basic skills do not lead to or stop a skater from becoming an olympic champion.
here is my cute story though. My DS -4 and his girlfriend, also 4 competed against each other. On warm up they skated around the ice holding hands and even finished the warm up in a pair pose infont of the judges. I had practiced translating the elements with my son -US swizzles are called double sculling here or if you are 4-bubbles. However I didn't go over backward wiggles with him. So after the ref asked him to do his backward wiggles, he looked at her and asked "you want me to wiggle my bum?". Then he went out skated backwards halfway across the ice and then wiggled his bum for everyone to see.

[sk8dinosaur]

I attended a competition this weekend and the judging was so crazy. The ordenals were just all over the place, especially in a lot of of the larger groups.
I understand how hard it is to judge and that they are only human too, but you got to wonder if they are watching the same skaters sometimes. Especially when the marks come back and the majoity is all 1st and 2nds and then out of nowhere there is a 7th? Do you guys think they should keep the groups smaller so its not so difficult to keep track of the skaters. Say no larger than 6? Judges! I would like your thoughts on this too!

[Virtualsk8r]

In the old days, the actual marks awarded under the 6.0 system were posted - instead of the ordinals, so you could see how close the judging was. Now - under OBO in the 6.0 system - only the ordinals are normally shown - if at all. Most competitions only post the result order with no 'back-up' statistics.

To understand how close it can be - a skater can win an event with mostly 1 or 2 place ordinals, and have a 7th or 10th -- even 12th thrown in there. Certainly judges can be out of whack in an event. However, if the actual marks awarded were shown - it might look like this....remember techical and interpretive/artistic (whatever they call it now) are added up for the total score...

Judge 1 2 3 4 5

Suzie Skater 3.5. 3.5 3.8 4.0 2.0 2.1 2.5 2.5 5.9 5.9
Total 7.0 7.8 4.1 5.0 11.8

1st mark is technical and second . While the marks are really different and the total score covers a wide range - all these marks could be first place ordinals. In other words, the judges gave this skater the highest mark of all skaters in the flight - even the low scores could be the highest that judge awarded.

But -- judge #1 - with a score of 7.0 - gave this skater 7th place ordinal. How did that happen? Often judges in large flights can lose track of the marks they give out, and mark simply on what they feel the performance is worth (the benefits of the new ISU judging system). So if that judge gave one skater a 3.6 / 3.4 - they would tie with a 3.5/3.5., placing them in 7th. And if two other skaters were given 3.4 / 3.7 & 3.6 / 3.5 - they would tie for 4th. Two more could get 3.7/3.5 & 3.4/3.8 and tie for 2nd, with the first place going to 3.6/3.7.

Hard to chart out here - but it would end up like this:

Placing 1: 3.6/3.7 = 7.3
Tie 2: 3.7/3.5 = 7.2
3.4/3.8 = 7.2

Tie 4: 3.6/3.4 = 7.0
3.5/3.5 = 7.0


You get the idea. The judge that gave the 7th place ordinal may have only been off by .1 between seven skaters but that is enough to give the 7th place ordinal.

It is often easier to judge larger flights because the winning skaters usually stand out from the crowd. However, sometimes the 6.0 system has such limiting combinations that ties are inevitable, especially if the judge is staying within the marking range of a particular level (only national senior level skaters ever got perfect 6.0 - even 5.9's so the normal range for beginner skaters is in the 1.0 range - pre-novice level 3.0 range and junior in the 4.0 range)

Hope that helps!

[Ellyn]

In the old days, the actual marks awarded under the 6.0 system were posted - instead of the ordinals, so you could see how close the judging was.

I guess you're in Canada? In the US I've never seen actual marks posted for Basic Skills competitions or for lower levels at nonqualifying competitions. Only ordinals. So no, you wouldn't know how close any two (or more) skaters were numerically in any judges' minds, just their individual rankings.

As to why some judges might rank skaters completely differently than other judges . . . different judges may value different qualities differently, e.g., some might look primarily at the difficulty or success of the technical elements and some more at the quality of the basic skating between elements, or have particular pet peeves within those areas. And sometimes a judge may just miss the boat entirely where one skater is concerned but are pretty much in line on the rest of the skaters.

Yes, small groups are preferable when all the skaters are at pretty much the same level and doing pretty much the same elements. Large groups will sort themselves out into top, middle, and bottom groups if there's a range of ability within the group, but if all the skaters are close in ability there might not be that much difference between 1st place and 7th place, and there could be legitimate reasons for putting the same skater either 1st or 7th depending what you value most highly.

[Virtualsk8r]

I'm talking years ago that actual marks were posted so that judges tended to leave the rink by the back door at basic skills/low level and club competitions ....because parents, coaches etc would be upset...usually not with the actual placing but with the marks awarded!!!

The lower the skill level, the harder it is to judge sometimes. Long ago I was on judging panels with 7 other judges - trying to sort out a flight of 20 or more pre-preliminary level skaters or lower. At one point, the judge next to me was just plain wacky after sitting there for 3 or more flights of 25 little girls in 1,000 pounds of feathers and rhinestones -- and couldn't skate! She threatened to judge based on the weight of the costume!!!! The good skaters were obvious in that flight - at least 1-3 and the rest were just awful but we still had to give them a mark. (how do you judge a bad waltz jump or was it an overrotated bunny hop?)

Made you appreciate the long flights when the skaters could actually perform the elements - even basic ones!

Wait until the new judging system gets down to the basic skills/ low level competitions!

PS a waltz jump is worth .3 so what is a bunny hop worth?

[blue111moon]

I've been doing accounting at USFSA competitions for more than 20 years and I've never seen the marks posted at non-qualifying competitions, only the ordinals. Now it's against the rules to post anything but ordinals in Basic Skills compeltitions, which use the traditional 6.0 system, not OBO (two totally different animals computationwise). So Virtual must be talking about the reaaaaallllly olden days of skating. :)

The Basic Skills Competition Guide specifically advises that groups be kept small (no more than three or four skaters per group) because the competitions are supposed to be fun and everyone gets rewarded. Plus, when you're dealing with judges who are coaches or skaters, they don't have a lot of experience judging and you're going to get the odd judge whose marks out of line with the rest of the panel. I think it's a good thing to teach skaters early on - that judges don't always agree and each judge can be looking for something a little different. Besides imagine how good the kid who came in seventh feels when she looks and sees that ONE judge gave her First Place.

[Virtualsk8r]

Not really old....just Canadian, eh? And you're right ---- even if a skater came last in the ordinal system (obo or 6.0) it was a positive if the panel was mixed and not everyone put that skater in last place. No longer ' I came last" but ' I got a ___ place from judge No. ___"

[Mrs Redboots]

Whereas we still have open judging at almost all competitions, even though they are still mostly RJS.

So last year, at an adult competition, for some reason the judges were all over the place. It got so they were cheering themselves when they all gave the same skater the same marks - and then miming bags of frustation when they were all over the place again with the second mark.

The audience - mostly other competitors - were killing themselves laughing.

But you can get all sorts of placings, even under the IJS. Husband had marks all over the place at the recent Coupe de France.