Toe Pick Camels

[Team Arthritis]

I'm struggling to learn a camel and hope you folks can help. One coach says twist and look at your left hand, another says stay straight like an airplane. Both say hold the entrance edge. In reality, if I twist to the left, I almost immediately hit my toepick and pop out. If I make little motor noises I can be an airplane but less resemblance to a spin. Occaisionally I get 3 revs but I keep hitting my toepick and I can;t seem to handle it and the hook becomes a toss and out I go. Any thoughts?
:roll:
Lyle

[Isk8NYC]

I go into this spin (CCW) with my left arm waaaay open and my right arm/leg following. I think I do look to the left upon entry, now that you mention it - it opens that shoulder more. It feels like you're going around a sharp corner. I think DoubleToe recommended having your free leg be your "tail" so it stays behind. Make sure you're not leading with your chin 8O because it will make you catch the toepick.

Stay on a bent knee for at least one revolution after you make the turn into the spin. When I hook the spin, the left arm goes to a more normal camel position and the right arm "snaps" into place, too. The free leg lifts on the bent knee, then "snaps" out of its tucked position in sync with the right arm.

There are a few videos on this PAGE (http://oasis.dit.upm.es/~jantonio/personal/patinaje/index.htm) that might help you sort things out.

[doubletoe]

Yes, try to get as deep a knee bend on your camel entry as you do on your sitspin entry (really!). Also, look over your leading shoulder as you are about to step into the spin, and try to make your entrance edge a small, very round circle.
Make sure your belly button and chest are facing down to the ice, but arch your back so that your chin is up and you are not looking at the ice. Also, as you push off onto the takeoff edge, keep your leading shoulder (left for CCW skaters) high so you stay level and parallel to the ice instead of doing a "camel dive." I agree with what was just said about trying to stay low on a bent knee for a full revolution before rising up into the camel position. And even when you rise up, don't straighten the knee completely. And remember it's just the leg that straightens up, not your back. Keep your chest down. :)

[Team Arthritis]

OK gang thanks for the replies and it looks like you 2 sure pointed out areas that I'm weak at, eg. I'm definitely leading with my chin, I have a bad habit of letting that free leg wander too wide. I'll also try the different arms today.

But tell me more about not dropping the inside shoulder because I was doing that on purpose with my airplane entrance (putter putter putter) and I thought that it was helping me hold the entrance edge.:?:

Also what do you mean about stearing with the free leg; I don't get it.:?:

Thanks:!:
Lyle

[Isk8NYC]

But tell me more about not dropping the inside shoulder because I was doing that on purpose with my airplane entrance (putter putter putter) and I thought that it was helping me hold the entrance edge.:?: It's not a terrible thing on the entrance, but once you hook the spin, you have to level out your wings. If you drop the inside shoulder during the spin, you'll have a hard time keeping the free hip up. (Actually, that's good advice on any spin-don't drop your shoulder. Exceptions are "I meant to do that" spins, of course like attitudes, laybacks, etc.)
Also, what do you mean about steering with the free leg; I don't get it.I didn't mention "steering," but you DO need to keep that free leg behind you during the entrance, like a dog's tail.

[doubletoe]

OK gang thanks for the replies and it looks like you 2 sure pointed out areas that I'm weak at, eg. I'm definitely leading with my chin, I have a bad habit of letting that free leg wander too wide. I'll also try the different arms today.

But tell me more about not dropping the inside shoulder because I was doing that on purpose with my airplane entrance (putter putter putter) and I thought that it was helping me hold the entrance edge.:?:

Also what do you mean about stearing with the free leg; I don't get it.:?:

Thanks:!:
Lyle

Your body follows where your eyes look and where your leading shoulder points, so if you look down and/or let the left shoulder dip as you push off onto the entrance edge, you will end up hitting your left toepick (going forward, mind you!) and doing my famous "camel dive" before you even start the spin. So when you're on the entrance edge, think of yourself as a plane that's about to take off, not one that's circling in for a landing.
There's a difference between twisting and dipping. Keep your shoulders level (meaning focus on keeping the leading shoulder high) but twist the shoulders just a little toward the direction of travel as you push off. Once you're in the spin, you should square up again, though, so you are in a straight spiral position during the spin.
I don't really understand the comment about steering with the free leg. For me, the free leg follows behind like a tail (it's fine to let it sort of cross behind the skating leg) until I am in the spin, at which point my shoulders and hips naturally square up again, just like I'm in a straight spiral. I like to feel that my free leg is already parallel to the ice on the entrance edge (which is easier to achieve if your skating knee is already deeply bent) so that my horizontal plane stays level and I don't rock on the blade when I get into the spin. If I had to pull my free leg up into position as I pulled up into the spin, it would pop me right onto my toepick and off balance!

[lillia]

This would be much more easier to show if we were on ice.. :??

[SkatingOnClouds]

7Stay on a bent knee for at least one revolution after you make the turn into the spin. When I hook the spin, the left arm goes to a more normal camel position and the right arm "snaps" into place, too. The free leg lifts on the bent knee, then "snaps" out of its tucked position in sync with the right arm.

wow, that works! I tried it last night, in group lesson coach had us working on camels, so I tried keeping my knee bent for a whole revolution. It really did help for some reason.

By the way, there seem to be a lot of "normal" arm positions for a camel. Coach says we should all try aeroplane, arms to the sides at first, but I find it easier to pull my arms back and sort of round them so my hands are pointing at my butt. Works for me because it helps me arch my back, keep my shoulders level and gives me a big arm opening to help the rotation.

[Casey]

At first, I liked the left arm forward method (http://kc.sk8rland.com/video/2006-10-09/casey-camel_spin-1.mpeg), where the body is turned a bit to the side - on those, I found the trick was keeping the skating leg turned out as much as I could.

But now, I've decided I like the aeroplane method (http://kc.sk8rland.com/video/2007-01-10/casey-camel-sit-backspin.mpeg), where the body is facing down...go figure.

For some reason the second method just seems easier now and I'm not sure why. :?:

[lovepairs]

Hi Team,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the "toepick hook" and then onto the ball of the foot is the Gus Lussi method. I never got the hang of that, but then when I switched coaches (over to Russian) I was taught a completely different method that worked immediately. Everything everyone said on this thread is true, such as arm position, taking your time getting into the spin, ect...the difference was that now I was told to enter with my weight back towards the heal of my skating foot, and gradually let the balance move forward until I'm on the ball of my foot. I would guess it is the exact opposite of the "toepick hook," but it really cleared things up for me.

[Team Arthritis]

hmmm lovepairs, I think that I need to try that as my main problem seems to be the "camel Dive" (what a great description!)
THanks
Lyle

[lillia]

I've been thinking hard on this one. It's hard to explain how to do without showing.
* The imoprtant things to think about is to turn the leg out from the hip down to the toe and point the toe upwards.
* You have to make sure your hips and shoulders is placed parallel to each other. (Like a square)
* Help the turn with your front-arm.
* Don't look down, chin up! It's the chin that shows the way.
* When you go into the spin you have to bend over. Your back should be in the same position when you start that it is when you spin. That makes you more stabil
* When you're in the beginning of going into the spin you have to go easy on you knee. Don't go too fast and hurry to go up, that only makes you come too far on the front on the blade.

If you are doing the camel spin with the jump.. we call it - Hopp i ligg, you should think of the "entrance" like a clock. You have to wait at least 45 minuits on the cirkel before you jump.
Then you should throw yourfirt leg in a half-cirkel from the back to the front. And change to the other leg and throw it from the front to the back.
You have to help with the arm here to and think about the free-leg - turn ut out the whole way and be still.

Good luck! ;)

[Team Arthritis]

THanks!
Lyle

[jazzpants]

wow, that works! I tried it last night, in group lesson coach had us working on camels, so I tried keeping my knee bent for a whole revolution. It really did help for some reason. Yup! Helped me too! Of course, now I have to work on free leg positions after the whole revolution so that I stay spinning.

By the way, there seem to be a lot of "normal" arm positions for a camel. Coach says we should all try aeroplane, arms to the sides at first, but I find it easier to pull my arms back and sort of round them so my hands are pointing at my butt. Works for me because it helps me arch my back, keep my shoulders level and gives me a big arm opening to help the rotation.I think the point is to also have your shoulders squeezed together and arched. Either of those arm positions will help.

And yes, as I was reminded...chin UP! NO looking down on the ice! Nothing but potholes, gouges and hockey spit down there! (Sometimes it's better not knowing what you might be falling down on...EWWWWW!!! :twisted: :lol: )

I've been told to rock from the heel to the toepick though. I've never been told about any other method so far on the foot rocking thingie. But it works for me.

Now I just have to learn to keep the free leg BEHIND me and I'll have this sucker!!! :twisted:

[Isk8NYC]

I didn't see any advice in this thread that said you HAD to use the toepick to hook the spin. The OP said he was rocking up onto the toepick in trying to do the spin. I think that's why you thought we were recommending it, lovepairs. (My Lussi book is packed, so I can't confirm your statement.)

Jazz - If you're accustomed to using the toepick to hook this spin, think about using the bottom toepick only. I don't use a toepick entry on this spin, but there is a definite hook on the ice, if I don't skid off the edge. Trying to rock up to the toepick to hook this spin is tricky. I just use a really, really deep outside edge (on the ball of the foot, not the heel) and the arm/leg snap.

[jazzpants]

Jazz - If you're accustomed to using the toepick to hook this spin, think about using the bottom toepick only. I don't use a toepick entry on this spin, but there is a definite hook on the ice, if I don't skid off the edge. Trying to rock up to the toepick to hook this spin is tricky. I just use a really, really deep outside edge (on the ball of the foot, not the heel) and the arm/leg snap.I don't even think about going onto the toepick. I think of just pressing on the outsides of the R picky toe (CW direction) as I'm rising up. It feels like my heel is barely touching the bottom of my boot -- but no weight on it. All the weight is on that picky toe!) (Well, not JUST the toe. It's hard to describe, but it's my magic spin spot!) Also, I think it's how I learn it, but straightening the skating leg helps me with this.

Of course, the free leg not staying behind me is throwing me off staying on my picky toe and eventually throws me off balance on the spin... :roll:

Yes, try to get as deep a knee bend on your camel entry as you do on your sitspin entry (really!). It's funny you mentioned this... in practice, if my lower back is hurting and I can't do a decent sit spin, I usually don't bother to try a camel. Last Monday night, I couldn't sit into the sit spin well enough but decided to try the camel spin! Not only was it a decent enough camel, but it helped stretched my bad hip!!! Who would have thunk!!! :P

[NoVa Sk8r]

the difference was that now I was told to enter with my weight back towards the heal of my skating foot, and gradually let the balance move forward until I'm on the ball of my foot. I would guess it is the exact opposite of the "toepick hook," but it really cleared things up for me.
Yes yes. I call this the "rocking chair" method: You start the spin (any spin) on the heel and then roll to the ball. The natural inclination is to rock on the blade, so if you start on the ball, you will probably end up on the toe pick.

As for the arms, there really are no correct positions (some look more ballet-like or classical). For fun and and for stability/control, I like to start off with one arm position (I typically "swim" into my camel spin, though I'm trying not to do this anymore), then switch to another (right arm on free leg, left arm on left leg), then switch another (say, both arms on lower back), and then another (say, right arm on free elg, left arm extended in front).

[lov2sk8]

Gus lussi said, you should see your free foot going into the spin, before you hook the three turn. it helps to keep the leg back on the entrance. Also think stomach down not chest, and as said before chin up.

[doubletoe]

Gus lussi said, you should see your free foot going into the spin, before you hook the three turn. it helps to keep the leg back on the entrance. Also think stomach down not chest, and as said before chin up.

Do you mean you twist your body and let your free leg cross behind the skating leg, sort of like a dog chasing its tail? (Just checking, since it might be misinterpreted as bringing the free leg in front of you).

[lov2sk8]

yes, if you can see the foot it is in the right place. but don't keep looking for the foot after you hook the spin.

[kayskate]

Hi Team,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the "toepick hook" and then onto the ball of the foot is the Gus Lussi method.

Yup. Of course, ppl have success w. different methods. I have used the hook for yrs w/ great success. I have a very fast nose-running camel when I am in shape. (Been injured of late.) If you can get your hands on the Lussi tape, it is worth watching. Costs about $50US. IMO, it is worth it. It goes on the explain/dem the outside edge camel which is a very adv method, but the hook works on the basic inside edge camel just as well.

Kay

[Team Arthritis]

doooh!http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/ashamed0001.gif (http://www.thesmilies.com)
I have the tape stored away somewhere!
Lyle

[Team Arthritis]

Things are improving sslllloooowwwllllyyy, thanks for all the input.
most help:
1)- keep the head up ( I know seems obvious but one coach had me looking down at my left hand - sort of like look at your free leg - and that makes me dive sooner).
2)- try to stay back on the blade - I can't do this, my tracings are still double but probably a 50% reduction in nose dives.
3)- for me leading with the left arm and thinking about remaining long and straight rather than twisting. Here I am head on in the mirror: http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/figuren/a110.gif

biggest remaining problem is not letting the free leg escape to the side and making the whole thing tighter.

thanks all
Lyle http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/sportlich/f050.gif

[doubletoe]

Okay, Lyle gets the best GIF character award, LOL! :lol: