WBP Requirements Changes

[xofivebyfive]

<Split to another Thread>

[vesperholly]

I hate toe loops inasmuch as my double is terrible. My single toe loop is fine, I guess. I don't like doing it in combination, I much prefer the loop. But with the new WBP rules, I'm going to have to do it because I can only do two loops per program. :(

[NoVa Sk8r]

But with the new WBP rules, I'm going to have to do it because I can only do two loops per program. :(AFAIK, that is not correct. The rule states that a jump be repeated only if it is in a combo or sequence. The rule only forbids performing the same jump more than once as a solo jump, but it doesn't limit the overall number of times the jump appears in the jump elements.

For instance, you could do a loop jump, then do a lutz/loop (or even lutz/loop/loop), then do a sal/loop. That is well within the confines of the WBP requirements, as defined in the Summary Sheets for Well-Balanced Program Requirements.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2007-%20Comp.%20Chart%20--%20Adult%20Singles%20(v4).pdf

[LoopLoop]

AFAIK, that is not correct. The rule states that a jump be repeated only if it is in a combo or sequence. The rule only forbids performing the same jump more than once as a solo jump, but it doesn't limit the overall number of times the jump appears in the jump elements.

Actually, according to Tony Conte, any jump can only be performed twice. See post #45 in this thread: http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=21225&page=2&highlight=well+balanced

[NoVa Sk8r]

No; that is not what the current PDF document states. That post that you quote is, er, from *May*.

The original WBP wording from 6/3/2006 stated that "jumps may be repeated only once, and only in combo/sequence."

BUT ... that has been revised as of 10/29/2006 to read "If a jump is repeated it must be in combo and/or sequence (i.e. cannot perform same jump more than once as solo jump)."

[LoopLoop]

The actual report of action from governing council states:
"Jumps may be repeated only once and only in combination and/or sequences."
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/COMBINED%20ROA%20Oct%2005%20-May%2006.pdf

Who has a current rulebook handy?;)

ETA: I just emailed Tony Conte and asked him to clarify, since the two documents referred to in this thread have different language.

[NoVa Sk8r]

A clarification is being sought.

The USFS website says:
"Please note: There was an error in the 2006-07 rulebook regarding well-balanced program elements for masters novice, adult silver and adult bronze free skates. Please use the charts below for well-balanced program elements. New inserts will available online in the next few weeks and can be printed and then cut down to size to fit into the rulebook."

I interpret this to read that the new PDF documents, created in Oct. '06, supercede the ROA, which was created in May.

Of course, *my* interpretation counts for, oh, nothing!

[doubletoe]

AFAIK, that is not correct. The rule states that a jump be repeated only if it is in a combo or sequence. The rule only forbids performing the same jump more than once as a solo jump, but it doesn't limit the overall number of times the jump appears in the jump elements.

For instance, you could do a loop jump, then do a lutz/loop (or even lutz/loop/loop), then do a sal/loop. That is well within the confines of the WBP requirements, as defined in the Summary Sheets for Well-Balanced Program Requirements.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2007-%20Comp.%20Chart%20--%20Adult%20Singles%20(v4).pdf

The official corrected version (November 2006) in the 2007 rulebook says, "Jumps may be repeated only once and only in combination and/or sequences." So that means each jump can only be done twice, and at least one of those two times must be in combination or sequence (so lutz-loop-loop is fine or lutz loop and a solo loop, but no lutz-loop-loop plus solo loop).

This rule was already in place for standard track WBP rules before it was added to the adult WBP rules, which is why most coaches and officials have no confusion over the wording as it appears in our new adult WBP rules. I think a lot of coaches learned what it meant the first time their skaters had a third loop or toeloop that wasn't counted. :p

[NoVa Sk8r]

The official corrected version (September 2006) in the 2007 rulebook says, "Jumps may be repeated only once and only in combination and/or sequences." So that means each jump can only be done twice, and at least one of those two times must be in combination or sequence (so lutz-loop-loop is fine or lutz loop and a solo loop, but no lutz-loop-loop plus solo loop).

This rule was already in place for standard track WBP rules before it was added to the adult WBP rules, which is why most coaches and officials have no confusion over the wording as it appears in our new adult WBP rules. I think a lot of coaches learned what it meant the first time their skaters had a third loop or toeloop that wasn't counted. :pAgain, the rules have been in a perpetual state of flux, and clarifications and amendments (not just on this but on many single and pairs issues) are needed. For example, the WBP requirements for pairs states that a pivot spiral can be performed instead of the death spiral. Well, under CoP, the pivot spiral n'existe pas. USFS must add this to the CoP database.

This year, CoP is being used, so rules "already in place" really don't mean much.

I guess what I neglected to mention is that the new WBP PDF document (the one dated 10/29/06) is included in the forms/applications for sectionals and AN! The rules set forth in the AN form supercede all the other rules. (Another example: One year--2004 or 2005?--the AN application spelled out specific qualification rules for competing at the proper level for pairs.)

I have since been contacted by someone who e-mailed Tony, and he said that my interpretation was correct. (As this person points out: "whether the judges who are judging a particular event or the Referee of any particular event will be of the same opinion is another question.")

Hopefully, a clarification memo (or something of that ilk) will be forthcoming.

[doubletoe]

Okay, mystery solved. Apparently, the AN and Sectionals announcements (October 2006) were published before the rulebook corrections were published (November 28, 2006) and that's why the announcements don't have the "repeated only once" rule. But I just got a message from Tony Conte saying all rules in the announcements are going to supercede the rulebook, so we ARE allowed to repeat all jumps more than once (it just needs to be in combination if repeated more than once).

So now my question is whether the IJS judging software is going to be programmed according to the AN announcement or according to the latest Rulebook. The software won't even allow the input of an element if no more repetitions are allowed, so if it's programmed according to the rulebook, then in Gold and Masters the second jump repetition won't get counted even if the rules allow it.

Anyway, here's the message I got from Tony:

Thanks for pointing that out.
The announcements always supersede the USFS rulebook. So, skaters may definitely repeat their jumps. I am actually going to put a notice up on the website to clarify some questions that have been coming through this year.

But just tell everyone, the announcement charts are what should be used and they are easy to look at too.

Antonio Conte, M.D., M.B.A.

[pennybeagle]

I only like toe loops as part of a combination, but even then, they are my weakest jump. For whatever reason, I am just incapable of doing a single toe loop from an inside 3-turn. I prefer the toe-walley, and use that entrance for attempts at the double (which are not very often and not very good).

The single toe loop scares me if I'm going into it with speed. I have zero feel for the timing. I know what I'm SUPPOSED to do, but my body won't do it. I once missed the ice with my toe pick altogether and end up doing a Charlie Brown football kick thing with my picking foot just kicking up in the air and me landing on my back. Ever since I did that, I've been permanently spooked.

So... question about the sub-thread going on here about repeating jumps at AN... does this mean I can do, say, lutz-loop-loop and axel-loop as my combos rather than try to put a toeloop in there somewhere?

[coskater64]

You can do lutz loop toe loop and then axel loop only 2 loops are allowed --with the way you stated it that would be 3 and the last one would not count. So if the axel loop was after the lutz loop loop then you would have a problem if you were doing 2 axels and that was the second one, you'd lose credit for that second solo axel. So, only 2 of each jump can't do 2 solos -- 1 solo and one in combination or 2 in combination. If you have a beautiful loop loop then that's it for the loops, the rest of your combos will be with toe loops and then you can just no do a solo toe loop.

Okay?8O

[NoVa Sk8r]

You can do lutz loop toe loop and then axel loop only 2 loops are allowed --with the way you stated it that would be 3 and the last one would not count. So if the axel loop was after the lutz loop loop then you would have a problem if you were doing 2 axels and that was the second one, you'd lose credit for that second solo axel. So, only 2 of each jump can't do 2 solos -- 1 solo and one in combination or 2 in combination. If you have a beautiful loop loop then that's it for the loops, the rest of your combos will be with toe loops and then you can just no do a solo toe loop.
Incorrect, Leslie. Tony says that USFSA is putting out a clarification memo (soon?). See posts #23 and #24 on page one of this thread.

At AN, you cannot repeat a jump as another solo ... but you can repeat the jump if it occurs in a combo/sequence.
In theory, one could do lutz/loop/loop, loop, flip/loop, sal/loop, and flip. However, doing 5 single loops in a program is probably not well-balanced, no matter what the rules say. ;)

[doubletoe]

Speaking of which, don't you think it's kind of odd to put out a clarification memo regarding the jump repetition rules instead of just sending out a revised announcement with the most current rulebook rules? I mean, either way, a message needs to be sent to everyone who has registered, so why not just send an e-mail out giving the corrected wording and attaching the new chart?

[mikawendy]

So... question about the sub-thread going on here about repeating jumps at AN... does this mean I can do, say, lutz-loop-loop and axel-loop as my combos rather than try to put a toeloop in there somewhere?

Speaking of the sub-thread...do any of you moderators want to split the threads? This sub-thread about WBP requirements/changes is interesting, and people who have not come into this thread may not know about it.

[Isk8NYC]

Speaking of the sub-thread...do any of you moderators want to split the threads? This sub-thread about WBP requirements/changes is interesting, and people who have not come into this thread may not know about it.

Okay, I split the posts as best I could, into two threads.

To chat about how much you hate the Toeloop, go to THIS THREAD (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=22447).

To chat about the WBP Requirements, stay here and post away!

[Debbie S]

Okay, mystery solved. Apparently, the AN and Sectionals announcements (October 2006) were published before the rulebook corrections were published (November 28, 2006) and that's why the announcements don't have the "repeated only once" rule. But I just got a message from Tony Conte saying all rules in the announcements are going to supercede the rulebook, so we ARE allowed to repeat all jumps more than once (it just needs to be in combination if repeated more than once). OK, this is just bizarre. Why make a confusing situation worse? The new WBP rules were enacted at GC last May. The chart in the announcement used incorrect WBP rules from the rulebook that has since been corrected. All they have to do is e-mail those who register for AN (we're not talking about a cast of thousands here) and let them know that the announcement was incorrect. I doubt the jump repetition rule would come as a surprise to people anyway, since the vast majority of adults who compete have read the Governing Council report (either on the website or Skating Mag) or the note about the rulebook mistake on the USFSA website when they went to order their rulebook this year. I suspect most didn't even look at the chart in the announcement - besides the fact that most know the rules already, in the pdf doc, the chart is sideways and impossible to read at a first glance (w/o rotating it).

Given that skaters and coaches have already created programs with the new WBP in mind, and have been competing under those rules all season, it seems silly to now have a comp (and a very important one, at that) that follows different rules just b/c somebody sc***ed up (like the paid staff of the USFSA that are responsible for the printing and production of the rulebook each year, and presumably had a copy of the GC rule changes in front of them during the process, and are also responsible for USFSA competition announcements). Whatever. And as doubletoe pointed out, using a different version of the WBP creates issues for the events using NJS.

And an obvious issue is what if people didn't bother rotating the chart when they downloaded the announcement, having already familiarized themselves with the new WBP, and don't read this forum? They won't know that the rule has been modified. :roll:

[doubletoe]

I totally agree (see my most recent post). If a clarification needs to be sent out anyway, why not send out a correction instead and bring the rules in line with the most current rules. Then again, that might be a call that needs to be made by the official referee and/or competition chair. I'd suggest asking Tony Conte about it (e-mail: sedated@bellsouth.net).

[aussieskater]

At AN, you cannot repeat a jump as another solo ... but you can repeat the jump if it occurs in a combo/sequence.
In theory, one could do lutz/loop/loop, loop, flip/loop, sal/loop, and flip. However, doing 5 single loops in a program is probably not well-balanced, no matter what the rules say. ;)

Down under, we don't have a lot of experience using the IJS for anything which is not ISU-rated (so not much for lower than Novice), but the Powers-That-Be claim that *one day* it will be used for most everything, including adult comps, so at this point my question is academic:

I hear what Nova is saying about a program full of loops not being considered to be "well-balanced". But given that any competitor who is developing a program to be marked under the IJS will be on a points-chase (and would be mad if they were not), it makes sense to assess how many marks you can gain by doing a succession of loops, all of which will count for points, against how many you might lose for excessive loops resulting in a "not-well-balanced" program.

Anyone care to guess how many marks you'd lose for a "not well balanced" program? Because it may be that the reduction in marks would be more than compensated for by gaining marks for repeated elements?

[NoVa Sk8r]

I doubt the jump repetition rule would come as a surprise to people anyway, since the vast majority of adults who compete have read the Governing Council report or the note about the rulebook mistake on the USFSA website when they went to order their rulebook this year. I suspect most didn't even look at the chart in the announcement - besides the fact that most know the rules already, in the pdf doc, the chart is sideways and impossible to read at a first glance (w/o rotating it).It is bizarre. But to address some of your points, it *did* come as a surprise to some folks. A lot of people print out the documents and look at them (or should look at them--that's how I and others saw the discrepancy). I would never NOT read and followe the rules spelled out for AN, where several rules are changed specifically for that event.

Given that skaters and coaches have already created programs with the new WBP in mind, and have been competing under those rules all season, it seems silly to now have a comp (and a very important one, at that) that follows different rules just b/c somebody sc***ed up.A lot of skaters--mainly gold and master level who do NOT compete in local events and who only do sectionals and/or nationals--are still creating their programs or have programs and are modifying them.

And as doubletoe pointed out, using a different version of the WBP creates issues for the events using NJS.I dare say it's not much of an issue at the lower levels, which are not operating under IJS (I mean replacing a toe loop with a loop is not gonna wreak major havoc). But if you are doing doubles, and if you can only do one or two doubles, then it does drastically change change your program. Heck, even substituting in loops for toe loops makes a small, but perhaps significant, difference (toe loop = 0.4 while loop = 0.5).
For these folks, I hope that a clarification/explanation/apology is put out soon. To repeat what I said above and AFAIK, AN *must* follow the rules that are set forth in the application. (The first page of the announcement reads: The 2007 U.S. Adult Figure Skating Championships will be conducted in accordance with the rules as presented in the 2007 U.S. Figure Skating Rulebook unless stated otherwise inthe announcement." I feel like they should highlight or put in brackets or italicize the different rules for AN.

Again, Tony is aware of these issues, and has promised to address them. He writes: "I will put a document that will clarify a lot of these issues and have them on the website."

The best is either to wait for the memo (shades of "Office Space"?!); contact Tony or some other person on the adult committee; or do what I have been doing, using the contacts listed in the AN announcement. The people I've contacted (mostly questions about CoP in the pair events) have been expedient and helpful in their responses.

BUt there were a few adults who noticed that some oft he requirements has seemingly changed and/or some of the existing rles were unclear or ambiguous. I also heard some mumblings about how the Code of Points system will be applied and how the technical specialist will call or credit certain elements (see below, for example, in some of the pair elements).

Just before Junior Nationals, some technical clarifications were posted on the Cleveland Skating website to address some issues that were unclear. Seeing as it was the first time that the IJS was being used at Junior Nationals, the need for clarification was probably expected (IJS was really NOT created for levels below senior and junior).

In a similar vein, with IJS now being used for the first time at AN at the gold and masters levels, there are some areas that (may) need clarification. It is with great hope that these issues can be addressed well before the actual event takes place! A lot of the FAQs and explanations on the USFS website do not apply to adults.

At some standard-track levels, only 3 different type of jumps are currently allowed to be repeated. This was what initially created confusion with the latest adult WBP requirements, because it didn't jive with the philosophy of what was being done at the lower standard track levels.
In juvenile, for example, only 3 different doubles can be repeated. So was this same reasoning to be applied to the adult gold/master levels?
Furthermore, some standard track levels now operate under the language that specifies that the skater can only do 2 of any specific jump, with one of the attempts being tried in combination. I kinda made sense to aplly this rule to the upper adult levels. These jump items were unclear under the current WBP requirements.

As for the adult pair events, there are a few questions on lifts and other elements. That Junior Nationals clarification document spelled out how the waist loop lift was to be classified. IJS states that "there is no scale of values for lifts which do not achieve full extension", but the clarification goes on to say that specifically for the waist loop lift, a lack of full extension was OK (it would automatically just be a Level 1 lift). Many adult pair teams also do Group 1 (hand-to-armpit hold lifts like the axel and lutz lifts), and most teams do not really fully complete the extension of the lifting arms (a socalled "half-lift). But in reality and as specified by IJS, a proper Group 1 lift should involve *full* extension of the arm that is holding the armpit.
Also, some teams do not do the minimum required number of revolutions on lifts to achieve proper credit.
How will the technical panel treat these lifts? Will the technical specialist disregard this type of lift? Will the judges give automatic negative GOEs?
And what about "half-lifts" from other groups? I'd hate to see adults get shocked by these rulings and gradings.

It is hoped that the Junior National clarifications will be adopted for the adult pair events and/or adjusted as needed before being applied.

To go on, clarification is also needed on "reduced elements" such as pivot spirals (I had heard that these would get the same credit as the death spiral--at O'dorf, the ISU adopted a leseer point value for this element) and throw waltz jumps, neither of which are ISU-listed elements in the Code of Points but may appear in the Championship Pairs event (the WBP document says that the gold and master teams may perform either a pivot spiral or death spiral).

It might be said that a throw waltz will hardly be executed in the gold, masters, or Championship Pairs events, but what about cheated throw axels, Will these be downgraded to throw waltz jumps, will they receive zero credit, or will it get full credit as a throw axel with highly negative GOEs?

These and other issues have been sent to the Adult Committee, so we'll see what happens.

Finally, it is to be expected that the first year using IJS will be very bumpy. I just hope that with many folks bringing several issues to the committee's attention, minimal turbulence will be achieved.

Ok, that's enough thinking for one night. :P

[NoVa Sk8r]

I hear what Nova is saying about a program full of loops not being considered to be "well-balanced". But given that any competitor who is developing a program to be marked under the IJS will be on a points-chase (and would be mad if they were not), it makes sense to assess how many marks you can gain by doing a succession of loops, all of which will count for points, against how many you might lose for excessive loops resulting in a "not-well-balanced" program.

Anyone care to guess how many marks you'd lose for a "not well balanced" program? Because it may be that the reduction in marks would be more than compensated for by gaining marks for repeated elements?IJS is only being used for the upper levels, where 6 or 7 jump elements are allowed. It will be interesting to see who even does a 3-jump combo or sequence. I see many elite adult skaters not taking advantage of this. And it could mean the difference in a placement.

To go on with the "all loops, no toe loops" argument, I have asked several judges in my area about this and they all said that they probably wouldn't notice in a program that only has 4 or 5 jump elements (bronze and silver levels). They always tell me that skating quality is at the front of their brains when judging.

And hey, several elite skaters refuse to do certain jumps: Mao Asada never does a 3toe (some say she never does a 3lutz since it is always flutzed, but I digress), Kwan stopped doing 3loop two or three seasons ago, and Liashenko didn't do a certain triple (IIRC).

I think the lack of jump variety would hurt more under 6.0 rather than in IJS, where the judges only mark waht they se and only give scores for Program Components, which to my knowledge (i read about these protocols a while long ago) do not include variety of jumps in the language.

[doubletoe]

Well, folks, the plot thickens! I just got an e-mail from Tony Conte (who must figure I am on this board every day, LOL!) asking me to spread the word that there has been a reversal of the decision on the WBP rules to be used at AN! In other words, THE 1-REPETITION JUMP LIMIT WILL APPLY! So if you now have 3 or 4 loops in your program, you'll need to take it back to just 2 total.
I have responded asking him if a notice is going to go out to everyone who has registered for AN (and presumably each of the Sectionals competitions) but have not heard back yet. Here is the e-mail I received today:

I just got a clarification AGAIN from the National Judges Committee regarding the Jump WBP restrictions for Adults.
You can only do a particular jump twice.
SO, you can do a loop alone and then again once in combination.
You cannot do: Loop alone, then Loop-Loop combination.
Sorry for all of the confusion.
Please spread the word.

Thanks,

Antonio Conte, M.D., M.B.A.
Chair—Adult Skating Committee

[daisies]

Interestingly, that was always the rule. It is unfortunate that there was so much confusion, but, interpreted any other way, it would have wreaked havoc on IJS!

[doubletoe]

Exactly. :roll:

[jazzpants]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/35.gif:roll: (Thank goodness I'm not going this year.)

[doubletoe]

But we sure wish you were, Jazzpants! :cry:

BTW, I just got a reply from Tony Conte saying he is planning to post a correction to the AN announcement WBP rules on the Adult section of the USFSA.org site
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=46

Also--and I will assume this is also true of other sections--the Pacific Coast Sectional chair says she plans to either e-mail out a clarification or post it on the PCAS website.

[NoVa Sk8r]

The clarification document has been posted:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_details.asp?id=34946

[Direct link:http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/AdultSkatingReview%20First%20Aid.pdf]

[Frumpy]

Thanks for posting that, NoVa!:bow:

I sincerely wish they could have "clarified" the jump-repeat thing....I dunno...a little SOONER than the week before AN's....:frus:

Regardless...

So I "interpret" this now that it is allowable to have a lutz-loop-loop, and a flip-loop, and a solo loop jump.

Is this correct?

[doubletoe]

That's correct. However, keep in mind that too many repetitions of the same jump can be considered poor choreography and still affect your score a little in that regard.

[Frumpy]

... too many repetitions of the same jump can be considered poor choreography ....

Thanks! :D

I was mostly trying to give more of a "hypothetical" thing to make sure I've got it straight. Besides, who really wants to COMPLETELY redo their jumping passes this close to the competition...ugh! ;)