new here and new to skating -please help w/ spins

[iceballerina]

If this isn't the right forum, please send me in the right direction. I am in my 30's and have been skating since Jan 06, so almost a year. I have had years of ballet training which I thought would help, but it's not in regards to SPINS. I am having a really hard time getting the 1 FOOT Spin down. Can anyone offer some tips or advice on this. I took a private lesson, but that didn't help much. I am so frustrated with this. Did it take you a long time to learn them? I am learning from doing the back crossovers to the wind up, but if there is another method please share. Thank you.

[flippet]

Spins take a looooooooong time for most people to learn.

As a dancer, you're used to spinning on your toe, more or less. I've heard that it can take a bit of 'untraining' to get over that, and to get over spotting on the ice.

1) hold the entry edge with your free side held BACK, for as long as possible before the 'hook'.

2) bring your free arm and free leg around TOGETHER, don't let one get ahead of the other.

3) hold your arms out at 10 and 2, and your free leg under your free arm, until the spin is centered. Only then will you begin to gradually bring them in.

[iceballerina]

Yes, I am having trouble with not being able to spot and I guess what you call the hook-after the wind up, that's where I get stuck. Teacher said I was waaay to sqaure. It is reassuring to know that it takes a while and I am not the only one. I just get so discouraged while I am practicing and everyone around me is doing spins. I watch the competitions and pause the movements and it just doesnt happen for me. The transition from the wind up to the part where you start the spin is hardest for me. I can do a few revolutions on one foot by just using the toe pick to start the spin (how you first learn to spin). Not sure I understand the 10 and 2 thing with the arms-any photos?

[Skate@Delaware]

For the 10/2 thing, if you are facing forward, your nose is at 12 o'clock, then you would place your arms at 10 and 2 o'clock....best guestimate. What you don't want to do is have them straight out to the sides or sticking out directly in front.


\o/ is better than -o- or |o| (if you imagine these are overhead shots and the circle is your head, the lines are your arms). You need to find what works best for you. I work better with a "hug the beach ball" while my husband is better with a more side-ways approach.

[iceballerina]

oh, I get it now
my teacher said I was opening them up to soon and that stopped the turne and to keep the left arm close to my chest and the right arm behind, but it just feels very odd that way
so you say to put them up above your head 10 and 2 -maybe I will try that

[Bill_S]

so you say to put them up above your head 10 and 2 -maybe I will try that

I'm sure that wasn't the intended advice. What is meant by 10 and 2 is the top view of you while starting the spin. Your arms are held almost shoulder high (not over your head), with your hands pointing in the direction of the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock position. Maybe another way to describe it is to hold them extended and somewhat angled to the front.

[Team Arthritis]

so you say to put them up above your head 10 and 2 -maybe I will try that

8O this is hard to do on the entrance but if you can do this once you "set" the spin it can help you center, hmm I don't really know why.
Lyle

[Skate@Delaware]

Ooops! Sorry if I wasn't clear...the arms are shoulder-height...not overhead.

I'm not good at drawing and less-so at explaining it seems!

I was in spin-remediation at one time...and had to do them with my arms crossed on my chest-boy! talk about hard!!!! But it got me to stop whipping my arms! My spins still suck tho' but I think I have other issues causing problems with them.

[flippet]

oh, I get it now
my teacher said I was opening them up to soon and that stopped the turne and to keep the left arm close to my chest and the right arm behind,


This is correct--you do this on the entry edge, until the 'hook' (that's the three-turn, where you go from a forward edge, to spinning on the back inside edge). Once you've hooked the spin, you gently bring your arms to the 10 and 2 position--keep your hands at just slightly lower than shoulder height, and you should be able to see both of your hands at the same time in your peripheral vision.

[looplover]

Spotting? Is that what they call it in dance where you keep your eyes forward and your head doesn't turn with the rest of your body? Anyway don't do that on ice, let your head turn with the rest.

[Isk8NYC]

8O this is hard to do on the entrance but if you can do this once you "set" the spin it can help you center, hmm I don't really know why.
Lyle*whispers* It makes you stand up straighter!

OT: Make sure to draw your feet back together when you do a two-foot spin. LEaving them apart slows it to a stop. To do a beginning one-foot spin, start with a good two-foot, bring your hands together, then lift your "free knee." Don't worry about lifting your foot - it's connected to the knee. LOL

[iceballerina]

I am getting really confused, but I can do a 2 foot spin and then lift one foot for 2 or 3 revolutions. Maybe I need to practice that more before I move onto the one foot. Is there a certain number of revolutions you should be able to do starting from a 2 foot or pivot before you attempt the crossover into the windup for the 1 foot? Perhaps I am jumping ahead too far?

[mdvask8r]

Try learning the spin entrance by standing on a line and pushing off from a T-position. Ask your coach to teach you this if s/he has not yet done so. Very helpful.

I too started skating as an adult with many years of dance training. Altho in general the dance training will be a tremendous help, a good number of things your body learned so well in dance will need to be "revised" for success on the ice. Good luck!

[iceballerina]

I have tried the T position and I need to keep working at it-that is where I seem to have the most trouble. I was looking for clips and thought this was a good one:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UdQCCjQNg8Q

[doubletoe]

I agree that learning the spin from a T position on a line is best. It's what finally got mine working. As I describe this, I am assuming you spin CCW on your left foot.

Stand on a line on the ice in a T position, with your left foot perpindicular to the line and your right foot behind it and turned out (technically an upside-down T). Bend your knees and push off gently onto a deeply bent left leg, sweeping gently with your left arm and looking to the left. Make the edge small and very round and keep your free leg behind you so that it trails almost like a tail, even crossing behind the skating leg a little. Only when you have come back to the line do you start the 3-turn that initiates the spin. And only then do you gently bring the free leg from back to front (you need to feel like you have done the first 1/2 turn of the spin before bringing the free leg to the front). Keep the hip of the free leg closed, not opened out.
Press into the ice with the ball of your foot for the entire spin and keep the knee bent to keep from popping up onto your toepick. Keep your arms open and rounded. Your eyes should relax and focus on the air about a foot or two in front of you. Now slowly bring the arms and free leg in, feeling the pressure of the centrifugal force against them. Never completely lock out the skating knee; keep it soft.
When you look at your marks on the ice, you should see that your entrance edge came all the way back to line before you started the spin.

[iceballerina]

Well, I am left handed and when we first began the pivot and spin, it felt better for me to turn clockwise, but my teacher said most people turn the other way, so I have sort of gotten used to going counterclockwise. I have had issues with left and right, for example I can do perfect mohawk going from the left to right-meaning left foot forward to ending on back right foot, but starting on my right foot is awkard, but I can do it ok now. I am a little mixed up and hope it didn't mess up my spin trying to do it like everyone else does. Anyways, I take your suggestion and try it at the rink tomorrow. I am confused about the 3 turn you mentioned:
Only when you have come back to the line do you start the 3-turn that initiates the spin

I didn't realize there was a 3 turn in there after the crossovers. I thought the 3 turn was a different approach to the spin.

[Mercedeslove]

don't spot. I use to be a gymnast and often find myself spotting. It messes me up. I still have problems with my spins as well.

[techskater]

Well, I am left handed and when we first began the pivot and spin, it felt better for me to turn clockwise, but my teacher said most people turn the other way, so I have sort of gotten used to going counterclockwise.

This is a part of your problem - a coach who is unable to translate between CCW and CW teaching. Just because most people are CCW skaters doesn't mean you have to be. I am a CW skater and had a similar issue when I first started skating because the coach was unable to translate directions from CCW to CW and confused me to he--. You might get used to skating CCW, but it's not your natural direction! Try it CW again and you may see a difference in your ability to do these things. If possible try and flip all the teaching and advice in your mind to do it that way or write down the CCW advice and then transpose L and R. 8O

There IS a three turn entry to spins as well, but at the very start of the spin once your edge collapses there is a three turn that's called the spin's "hook" which will get you on the correct spinning edge.

[iceballerina]

Thank you for the tip about starting on the line, that really helped as well as the visual of the back leg being a tail. I felt like I was one the correct edge a few time-even though I had to briefly put my foot down, the beginnings of the spin felt better. At least with the line, I kinda had an idea of where I was supposed to be before initiating the spin-great tip!! and the outside curve was better. I have trouble with outside edges-are they harder for everyone else too? Just wondering. So I tried spinning on both sides and the verdict is...... I am able to do a few more revolutions and find the sweet spot on my blade on the right foot going clockwise much better than my left and I balance better on the right foot. I also can balance better doing a spiral on my right leg with the left in arabesque. However, the crossovers and wind up feel awkward going the other way, since I have been practicing them so many times with right over left. I also think my blades need sharpening or maybe even time for new ones. I have the ridells- the $120 ones that I got when I started last Jan-didn't spend much because I wasn't sure if I would stick with it, so maybe it's time to move up to better skates.

[doubletoe]

I'm so glad that helped, Iceballerina! :D If you have trouble with the outside edge, bending your knee more deeply and sort of planting your foot into the ice before starting the edge should help. It will also help to make sure your blades are sharp enough to hold the edge. Get them sharpened at least every 40 hours of skating, and make sure it's by someone who sharpens the higher level skaters' blades. Otherwise, your rocker (the round part you spin on) will get shaved off and you'll end up wondering why your spins are so bad, LOL!

As for the CW vs CCW thing, don't forget that it's arguably more about your jumps than your spins. Have you tried a waltz jump, salchow and toeloop both directions? Which foot do you feel more secure landing on? If you feel more secure landing on your left foot, you may want to do your jumps and spins CW, but if you feel more secure landing on your right foot, then you should jump and spin CCW. If you don't have a strong preference, I'd recommend learning everything CCW because it will make it easier to skate with traffic instead of against it and to copy what most coaches (or other skaters) are demonstrating for you.

[techskater]

I've found it's much easier to learn to jump the direction it is easier to spin in, especially for multi-rev jumps. Do what works best for you, though. There are people that spin one way and jump the other at a relatively high level, too, so don't be put off about trying to spin to conform to your jumps.

[iceballerina]

Which foot do you feel more secure landing on?

I can only do a waltz jump and a toe loop and sort of a half lutz, and I feel most secure landing on my right foot-no question about that at all. But my left inside 3 turn is so much better than my right just like with the mohawk getting into the toe loop is a little messy. I really do feel like a made a tad bit of progress today :) . Yes, I am going to someone else to get my blades sharpened that will do a good job.

[Emberchyld]

As for the CW vs CCW thing, don't forget that it's arguably more about your jumps than your spins. Have you tried a waltz jump, salchow and toeloop both directions? Which foot do you feel more secure landing on? If you feel more secure landing on your left foot, you may want to do your jumps and spins CW, but if you feel more secure landing on your right foot, then you should jump and spin CCW.

I agree. I'm a natural CW spinner, but because of a weaker left foot/leg that won't let me land properly (toepick-blade), I have to jump CCW. So, now my instructor has made me start working on my CCW spins to be consistent. It's annoying and difficult and embarrasing (because I'm back to square one on spins and feel so funny when I'm practicing in public sessions!), but it supposedly will make my life easier, eventually.

Unfortunately, I had cured myself (mostly) of spotting when I spun CW, but now whenever I try CCW, I spot automatically!

[doubletoe]

I can only do a waltz jump and a toe loop and sort of a half lutz, and I feel most secure landing on my right foot-no question about that at all. But my left inside 3 turn is so much better than my right just like with the mohawk getting into the toe loop is a little messy. I really do feel like a made a tad bit of progress today :) . Yes, I am going to someone else to get my blades sharpened that will do a good job.

If you are more comfortable doing your waltz jump and toeloop CCW and landing on the right foot, then I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest learning your jumps and spins CCW (especially since skating CCW will probably make your skating life simpler). I wouldn't worry about the left inside 3-turn being stronger than the right at this point, since you're going to have to get all of them solid to pass your moves in the field anyway. Also, you can always do a toeloop from a LFO 3-turn, step down onto a RBO edge and then pick with the left toe and jump. It's actually the preferred entry for most higher level skaters so if you like doing the 3-turn on the left foot instead, it's perfectly acceptable (but it's going to be an outside 3-turn).

[iceballerina]

Also, you can always do a toeloop from a LFO 3-turn, step down onto a RBO edge and then pick with the left toe and jump

Oh, I didn't know I could do that. I think that is how we entered into the the 1/2 toe walley and my teacher said I did that well, so I will have to try that-it is more comfortable for me to do it that way. I am working on my inside 3 turns, but my outside 3 turns on both sides are fine. Yeah, I think I will just try to strengthen the left foot and go CCW. Thanks!

[doubletoe]

Oh, I didn't know I could do that. I think that is how we entered into the the 1/2 toe walley and my teacher said I did that well, so I will have to try that-it is more comfortable for me to do it that way. I am working on my inside 3 turns, but my outside 3 turns on both sides are fine. Yeah, I think I will just try to strengthen the left foot and go CCW. Thanks!

Well, not exactly. A toe walley is done from a Right Back INSIDE edge, which is the exit edge of a Right Forward OUTSIDE 3-turn. But a toeloop is from a Right Back OUTSIDE edge, which is either the exit edge of a RFI 3-turn, or a LFO 3-turn, then a step down onto the right back outside edge.

[iceballerina]

ah, good to know.

[sk8er08]

i took ballet too and i always spotted my self doing spins because of ballet. and i always went to my toepick probably because of ballet. lift your toes to the top of your skate as well as your heal. that will help you keep on the sweet spot of your blade. hold your entrance edge as long as possible. then rise up slowly our of your knee. finally keep your shoulders down and level. oh and don't rotate the hip out keep everything in a straight line. my teacher told me to pretend like your in a pringles can. lol weird things like that helped me. keep straight as possible.

[LilJen]

No help here, just sympathy. I have a lot of dance background (ballet, modern) and gymnastics, so you'd THINK I'd turn more easily (and I generally stunk at spotting). But nope, I tend to try to ride the heel of my blade, strangely. I'm also finding that having done so many things CW (tour jetes, chaines turns) that I'm tending to like CW, which is kind of inconvenient!