Holding back skaters

[slusher]

It's been a topic of discussion all year because some coaches are very bad for holding back kids. Other coaches push kids to the highest test they can and then the skater competes at that level, being last for a long while until their skills reach maturity and they're challenging for a medal in competition then they try for the next test.

I have a question for US skaters. Now I know that USFSA competitions are full of skaters who have passed the test but skate at a much higher level. The test requirements and what's done in competition do not match. But, do they stay at that level for a number of years or do they push on.

I am also am curious about ISI.

With ISI, because the elements are specified,

are skaters doing them very well (ie it's obvious they're much better),

doing them about the test standard,

or are struggling with some of the harder things in the level.

[sk8rabbi_07]

For the USFSA I am about to take my Novice Freestyle. If I pass I can compete at Novice or a level under it, and I believe maybe a level over. I could be wrong but i know there is some skaters that do that.

[mikawendy]

For the USFSA I am about to take my Novice Freestyle. If I pass I can compete at Novice or a level under it, and I believe maybe a level over. I could be wrong but i know there is some skaters that do that.

Umm, no, once you pass your Novice FS test, you will be able to compete at Novice or one level higher (Junior) ("skating up") at USFSA nonqualifying competitions. At USFSA qualifying competitions, you would only be able to compete at Novice, not Intermediate or Junior.

Slusher--Skate@Delaware has been to some ISI competitions, so she may have some insights about that.

[sk8rabbi_07]

oops, hehe i was close (kinda) :P

[Isk8NYC]

There are crossover rules that cite what the lowest level is that an already-tested USFSA skater is allowed to compete at in ISI.




Compare ISI to the Basic Skills and lower level standard track competitions. The same "sandbagging" charges are thrown about when a skater does really, really well in a competition. Usually it's because of these two reasons:New ISI competitors are often entered at a level at or below their "real" test level because the coach wants them to get experience without too much pressure. *Usually kids who've never competed before.*Some skaters will be higher-level because they're "stuck" at a freestyle level because they can't master one or two things in the next ISI test. (The infamous ISI FS5 axel and camel spin, for example.)Most skaters WANT to continue to test - it's not usually a formal, nerve-wracking experience in the ISI. It actually encourages skaters to "move up" because it's no pressure and it's inexpensive compared to USFSA. (This also varies from rink to rink.)

Once you get above ISI FS3/FS4, the competitors are much more serious and practiced. Their programs are well-choreographed and more "showy." They'd be in line with the lower- and middle-level USFSA test groups; experienced competitors who want to strut their stuff.

The key difference is that ISI competitions are just for fun. There's no "qualifying wins" needed to enter. During the season, if you blow a comp, there's another one a few weeks later and you can try again. So, there's less at stake to justify "holding back" a skater to try and get a gold. Many of the higher-level skaters are also USFSA skaters who enjoy competing and showing off - nothing wrong with that.

ETA: You mentioned it in your original post, but the ISI rules state that the skater can only do maneuvers at or below their test level. Therefore, you will NOT see an axel in an ISI FS1 program. It creates a level playing field. They also divide comps by age and gender as well as test level. (I've been at Basic Skills comps where boys and girls competed against each other, it's just different.) I remember being in the "21 and older" group for years, competing against a number of women in their 20's. At one comp, a 50-something skater entered (for her first comp) at the same test level, but the organizers put her in the "40-and-older" group, separate from us. She had to skate "against the book," but she still took a gold with really good scores.

[Isk8NYC]

These are the crossover ISI:USFSA levels from the Gay Games website.
(Their competitions are based on the ISI test structure.)

ISI FREESTYLE LEVEL USFS FREESTYLE LEVEL
Freestyle 3 Adult Bronze or Pre-Prelim
Freestyle 4 Adult Silver or Preliminary
Freestyle 5 Adult Gold or Juvenile
Freestyle 6 Intermediate
Freestyle 7 Novice
Freestyle 8 Junior
Freestyle 9 Senior

ISI DANCE LEVEL USFS DANCE LEVEL
Dance 3 Preliminary
Dance 4 Pre-Bronze
Dance 5 Bronze
Dance 6 Pre-Silver
Dance 7 Silver
Dance 8 Pre-Gold
Dance 9 Gold

I had to laugh after looking this up on their website (http://www.igfsu.org/ISITests.htm).
They have a competition called the "Fabulous Cup." I love it - they're so outrageous!

[Team Arthritis]

yeh these are interesting problems that have never been adequately addressed. THe problem starts at the highest level - A skater who can competently pass the senior FS test may be barely able to compete at junior; why? The reason is that skaters keep getting better and push to new levels but the USFS has not added on higher levels, say for example an "international" level akin to international dances. So the US skaters going to Worlds are all senior level. Consequently, to compete at seniors, you have to be at the level of international competition. So you'd better not take that senior test until you are eather 1) going to give up skating or b) think you are competitive at an International level. So what if you are a great skater but not one of the best in the world, well you would naturally keep working at the next lower level which is Junior! Consequently you'd better not take that junior level test until you think you can compete at a national level.
[The one interesting twist is that when you are 14 yo, you have to move on from juvenile to stay in the competitive track, hence open Juv vs qualifying Juv at lots of competitions.]
and so on and so on it just gets more rediculous every year and this just backs on down and plugs up the lower levels, it'll never get better until new, higher, levels are added to the USFS test structure.:evil:


Lyle

[jenlyon60]

There has been and continues to be discussion on the disparity between test levels and what's required for competitive success at each level. Last year or the year before there was an issue at GC about creating a "Super-Senior" test level (similar to the Canadian competitive test track or the UK Competitive test track). I can't remember if it got sent back to committee for further discussion/refinement or voted down entirely. Maybe someone who was at Governing Council can remember.

The issue boils down to which side should USFS come down on? Set a series of test levels high enough that only a couple skaters a year (at best) can achieve, and then the test levels effectively separate out the "world team" or maintain test levels that are still difficult to achieve and then skills-cap at some of the lower levels (mostly Juv/Intermediate) and/or acknowledge openly that the test levels reflect the minimal skill set normally required to succeed at any given competition level.

Look at how few skaters actually succeed in the sport through Senior MIF/Senior FS or Gold Dance tests, of all the skaters who take up the sport. It's still a significant challenge and achievement to pass those tests.

[Sk8pdx]

There are crossover rules that cite what the lowest level is that an already-tested USFSA skater is allowed to compete at in ISI.

Some skaters will be higher-level because they're "stuck" at a freestyle level because they can't master one or two things in the next ISI test. (The infamous ISI FS5 axel and camel spin, for example.)Once you get above ISI FS3/FS4, the competitors are much more serious and practiced. Their programs are well-choreographed and more "showy." They'd be in line with the lower- and middle-level USFSA test groups; experienced competitors who want to strut their stuff.
...
Many of the higher-level skaters are also USFSA skaters who enjoy competing and showing off - nothing wrong with that.


Yeah, I would pass FS3 if it weren't for that darn change-foot spin. :evil: Yet I can do a camel spin??? go figure...

But I do like ISI events just for competition exposure and getting a feel for what it is like to be in front of "judges", peers, and an audience. It is a whole different skating experience than just your saturday afternoon public session practice showing your friends what you can do. I have not yet skated in any USFSA competitions before so I really can't tell what any difference would be. ISI competitions seem to be a much more laid back kind of event. ... though I still get jittery and nauseous when competing....