Axel - skid or no skid

[Ice T]

I have noticed that there are two camps when it comes to the axel takeoff. Some coaches teach no skid and some teach a skid. This seems to be especially important for the execution of the triple axel, but also affects learning the double axel. In fact, one skater I know could not land the double axel, and when she changed coaches and rinks, the new coaches made her relearn the single with the skid before she could work on the double again. The coach she had before is very adamant about no skid, but yet none of his students can land the double axel.

Here's my question: with the new judging system (and perhaps even the old), what is the viewpoint about this skid take off? Would that be considered a cheated jump, or a lesser quality of technique, or is it considered acceptable and perhaps necessary in order to achieve execution of the axel?

[doubletoe]

Since pretty much everyone seems to do the skid on the double and triple axel, it doesn't seem to hurt the jump scores. But it isn't needed on the single.

[daisies]

I'm a judge and don't consider a skid at takeoff to be a cheat (unless it is *terribly* skidded and you can see the skater actually turning in slo-mo on the ice). I agree it is an essential part of mastering the double and triple.

[LilJen]

Seems the judges never ping Evan Lysacek for a VERY LARGE skid on his 3axel. . .

[Ice T]

Seems the judges never ping Evan Lysacek for a VERY LARGE skid on his 3axel. . .

Actually, I totally think that is why he keeps missing that jump because he has not mastered the skid. Everytime I have seen him miss the jump it was because of that takeoff.

I have another question: do you think this is a difference of European vs. American technique?

I noticed in the replay of Kimmie's triple axel at the last Grand Prix event that she seemed to have mastered the skid. It looked really good, even though I know she fell on the jump at the end. Does anyone recall if any of the European men use the skid technique?

[MQSeries]

Actually, I totally think that is why he keeps missing that jump because he has not mastered the skid. Everytime I have seen him miss the jump it was because of that takeoff.


Evan's problem with the 3a is that he doesn't use the skid to help him launch himself into the air. Most skater skids, step up into the air and then rotate. Evan skids and then whip his free leg forcefully around for the rotations. He gets almost no height on the jump at all. It's just not a reliable technique.

Julia Sebestyn of Hungary has a clean 2axel take-off. Past skaters with no skid were Scott Hamilton and Jill trenary.

I would skid too if I knew how to do it.

[Mrs Redboots]

I have another question: do you think this is a difference of European vs. American technique?Well my coach - whose highest-level skaters are admittedly only trying double axels, not triples - never taught the skid until he went on a seminar with Mishin, who does teach it. After that, he changed his mind and his technique, and now, I believe, teaches the skid!

[kateskate]

Well my coach - whose highest-level skaters are admittedly only trying double axels, not triples - never taught the skid until he went on a seminar with Mishin, who does teach it. After that, he changed his mind and his technique, and now, I believe, teaches the skid!

My coach and coach's husband said something similar too. Mishin teaches a skid so I think a lot have followed. Its not necessary to skid to do an axel but I think its almost necessary to do it for a triple. So I guess its ok to teach it at the moment. Although my coach's husband thinks they may start counting takeoffs in the NJS and penalise overrotated takeoffs the same way as underrotated landings in which case maybe no skid would be allowed......

[doubletoe]

They already penalize overrotated takeoffs, but only on toeloops.
Interesting thought about regional preference. . . I just looked at videos of Joubert, Plushenko and Preaubert and I don't see a noticeable skid on any of their triple axels. (Then again, they might just do it too quickly for my untrained eye?)

[kateskate]

They already penalize overrotated takeoffs, but only on toeloops.

Interesting - I didn't realise. Although I do see a lot of reskates on tests when toeloops become toe-three jumps.

And coach's husband was only talking to me in the context of axels so I guess he just meant they may start penalising skid takeoffs on axels.

[doubletoe]

I guess the only jump where the overrotated takeoff is common is the toeloop, and that's why they specifically mention that one in the recent rule clarifications. Here's the wording they use:

Rule: "A clear forward take-off other than Axel type jump will be considered as a cheated jump."

Comments: "The toeloop is the most commonly cheated on take off jump. The Technical Panel may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)."

[Mrs Redboots]

I didn't realise. Although I do see a lot of reskates on tests when toeloops become toe-three jumps.Oh, don't - that's the one thing Husband's dreading getting on his test. I don't think he'll toe-3 it - he doesn't in his programme - but he has done it more often than is comfortable in practice!

[kateskate]

Oh, don't - that's the one thing Husband's dreading getting on his test. I don't think he'll toe-3 it - he doesn't in his programme - but he has done it more often than is comfortable in practice!


But they've always passed on the reskate. I'm sure he will be fine!

[Mrs Redboots]

But they've always passed on the reskate. I'm sure he will be fine!
So am I sure - he's one who always skates up! We did the "Hop, step and jump" competition at our rink last year - NEVER AGAIN. I went out there and did a perfectly respectable toe-loop; he went out there and did an enormous one he could have doubled if he'd known how. My spin was okay - his was one of the best he's ever done. I did a good spiral - his went on and on spiralling round and round the circle until the judges said "That's enough!" Grrrrr...... my only consolation, looking at the marks afterwards, was that if we'd been in with the kids, I wouldn't have come last!

And he'll do exactly the same next week, I shouldn't wonder!

[frbskate63]

They already penalize overrotated takeoffs, but only on toeloops.

They're not consistent about it. When I saw my DVD from Oberstdorf, I was completely forward for the take-off of both toeloops, but they were both counted. Whereas my flip was *just about* fully rotated, but the landing edge didn't run, so I got nothing for it.

Fiona

[mikawendy]

I once got my takeoff foot sort of stuck in a rut on the ice as I was taking off for a waltz jump--not enough to make me fall or wrench my knee, but I think it was enough to make me somehow skid on the ice. I noticed that my knee bend and jump height and trajectory seemed much better, perhaps not because of the skid directly but because I wasn't taking off as soon as I was expecting and then I got farther down in my knee, and also, I wasn't turning too soon into the jump. One interesting effect, though, was that all of my jumps on that skating session (even other than waltz and sal) felt MUCH higher than they ever usually do.

I haven't tried to reproduce the skid (or whatever it was) because I knew well enough then that one does NOT need a skid for a waltz jump.

[doubletoe]

They're not consistent about it. When I saw my DVD from Oberstdorf, I was completely forward for the take-off of both toeloops, but they were both counted. Whereas my flip was *just about* fully rotated, but the landing edge didn't run, so I got nothing for it.

Fiona

Oh, good, I need all the mercy I can get, since I land perfect toe-axels, LOL!

[daisies]

They're not consistent about it. When I saw my DVD from Oberstdorf, I was completely forward for the take-off of both toeloops, but they were both counted.
Were these singles or doubles? I can see why it would be acceptable on a single when there is nowhere to downgrade to, especially if it's landed. If it was a double, I am shocked it wasn't downgraded.

[frbskate63]

Were these singles or doubles?

Very definitely singles!!!! The fact that there's nowhere to downgrade to doesn't stop them doing it, as my barely-there loop and flip proved, but they do seem to put a lot more emphasis on a clean exit than a clean entry.

Fiona

[doubletoe]

Were these singles or doubles? I can see why it would be acceptable on a single when there is nowhere to downgrade to, especially if it's landed. If it was a double, I am shocked it wasn't downgraded.

Speaking of that, shouldn't they just downgrade forward takeoff double toes to single axels, since they are, in effect, axels? :roll: Not that *I* have any personal reason for asking! :lol:

[daisies]

Speaking of that, shouldn't they just downgrade forward takeoff double toes to single axels, since they are, in effect, axels? :roll: Not that *I* have any personal reason for asking! :lol:

No, because the intent is toe loop. If someone intends to do a double toe and does a toe axel, but they already have the axel in the program, if it gets called as an axel they could get penalized for it not being an axel in combo or an axel repeated too many times (or whatever the rule is for that particular level). You go with intent, first and foremost.

(That's why a lot of times, especially in short programs, major flutzes still get called as lutzes and not flips -- so that it doesn't interfere with the other flips in the program. The flutz would just then get a negative GOE.)