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View Full Version : Thoughts on the rocker size debate...


Casey
11-29-2006, 01:01 AM
So when I bought my new skates, with the 8' rocker blades as opposed to my old 7' ones, I was a bit surprised to find many of the things I'd been told about 8' blades to actually be opposite of what I experienced. I didn't dwell on it to much, though, and just let it go at "oh it must be the parabolic feature" which really can't make that huge of a difference, but I digress...

So anyways today was my second day skating at my old rink where I first started skating. In the past year, every time I've gone back and visited that rink, I've found the ice to be too hard and brittle and cold, would lose deep edges and jump landings and fall numerous times which doesn't usually happen, and so on. I was happy to have moved on to other rinks - my usual rink these days has what's probably the softest ice I've skated on but it's suited my tastes for the last year or so. But these last couple times back were different - the ice felt GOOD, smooth, fast, not brittle...I didn't lose edges and fall. I thought at first the rink had changed, but I asked a couple oldtimers and a rink employee and they have noticed no difference. The rink didn't feel any warmer, and given that there's a layer of ice on the entire length of the roads between my work and the rink, one can't blame the weather for warming it up either. But it wasn't just a fluke - I did edges/hydroblades/etc. as deep as ever, perfectly secure. Jumps were clean and big and no uncertainty there either. I thought "gee maybe I'm just not used to freestyle", so I went back today for public session, and it was the same.

This got me pondering...what was different if not the rink? Had my skating really changed so much that it now suited harder ice better? It certainly hasn't felt like it...oh hmm, I do have new skates now... I'll leave the rest of my boring thought process off, but here are some conclusions I came to:

With a shallower rocker, the blade is curved more, so the general assumption is that less of the blade touches the ice. Thus an 8' rocker would make spins and turns harder because there's more friction to control. That's widely recognized and I don't debate it.
However, the heavier the weight/force on the blades (be it from sheer weight or power of skating), the more pressure is put on the point that is touching the ice. With a smaller rocker, that point is smaller - the effect is a much less exagurated version of the same weight in pointed heels versus wider heels - but on ice, the more concentrated weight means more stress on the ice beneath the blade, thus making it feel brittle. This is how I explain why the harder ice feels so much better with 8' rockers.
So what about spins? Well, I reason that, whether the ice is on the harder side and feels brittle, or is softer and does it more quietly, the smaller pressure point of a smaller rocker WILL push into the ice more, which brings more of the blade surface in contact and spreads out the weight better. However, that means the smaller rocker is digging into the ice a lot more, which is more friction. One cannot argue surface area compared on a solid surface (not ice) alone - the more weight that's on the blade, the more it will sink into the ice, which is especially important in a spin.
Thus, your "average" teenage figure skater, perhaps 100lbs or less, will indeed find 8' rockers harder, because the smaller contact point of the 7' rocker is enough for her weight to not dig in much, whereas the 8' rocker just puts more surface area of the blade in contact with the ice unnecessarily. This is particularly true if they are not an especially fast or powerful skater, as they won't be pushing that point as much in things besides spins (i.e. slower edges aren't going to push into the ice as much as faster ones).
However, for heavier skaters in spins, and/or more powerful skaters in edges, the effect is reverse, because the end result of the larger contact area is that the ice does not have to give as much and the amount of blade in contact with the ice is less and more consistant overall.


I think these conclusions are why 8' rockers are generally termed as more of an "advanced skater" blade - for the younger, lighter skaters, if you're not a fast powerful skater, they will indeed be harder, and even for the strong skaters, if they're lightweight enough, spins will be harder regardless.

But, what isn't really ever related is skater weight to rocker - and I believe that, especially on harder ice, bigger rockers are actually easier and more advantageous for heavier skaters (not even "heavy" heavy - I'm only 155lbs - but not a 14 year old weight), both in edges and spins.

One thing I found interesting was that I skated quite comfortably in a 5/16" ROH on my 7' rocker blades. But after finding it harder to stop and so on, though I did get used to it to a good degree, I decided to have the sharpener put them all the way back down to 7/16", which was for me unpleasant and slippery on the 7' rockers. On the 8' rockers though, I don't really notice any difference at all except that stops are a bit easier (and only slightly). Next time I think I may go down to 1/2". I couldn't really explain why that could be before, but this explains that as well.

So anyways my conclusion is that, at least for folks 150lbs-ish and up, 8' rockers are actually easier, particularly if you skate on harder ice that feels somewhat brittle. I'm curious as to where exactly weight starts making them easier, so I thought I might ask for some opinions here. For those of you who have skated on both 7' and 8' (or 6.5' or 8.5') rocker blades, what is your weight and which did you find easier and how hard is the ice at your rink compared to others insofar as you're aware and have heard?

vesperholly
11-29-2006, 02:21 AM
I'm a "heavier" skater (you don't ask a lady her weight :halo: ) and I have skated on both 8' and 7' blades. I started off in Coronation Aces (8?), moved up to Gold Seals (8), and a year ago switched to Phantoms (7).

I do notice a difference when the ice is brittle - it's a lot harder to spin in the Phantoms when the ice is hard. I was worried at first that my flow and speed, especially out of jump landings, was going to decrease going to a 7' blade, but it seems to be holding up just fine. Spins seem to center better and my jumps have improved. Finding the sweet spot on the Phantoms is harder and I find myself scratching more than with the Gold Seals.

I think it's hard to pin good skating days on exactly one thing. Did you get new boots as well? I noticed a dramatic improvement when I got my new boots, because I had let my old ones break down so much.

Bill_S
11-29-2006, 09:11 AM
I've wondered about rocker too. I weigh 175 lbs. and find that one of the problems I have in trying to center a spin on my Aces (7') is that the ice (when cold/brittle) breaks up underneath, and it's a VERY bumpy ride. At times I hit a rut deep enough to break the spin for me. This happens most often on brittle cold ice, and not nearly as much on soft freshly cut ice.

The contact area will also depend on the ROH. I sharpen to 3/8" which is fairly deep and I like that. I could change back to 1/2", which is the other option I have here at home, in order to get more data.

Casey, this is a very good investigation. I hope that others that have had more than one blade in their skating career can chime in.

Bill_S
11-29-2006, 09:16 AM
I noticed a dramatic improvement when I got my new boots, because I had let my old ones break down so much.


Vesperholly: Was the dramatic improvement in spins, or in other elements?

I've had a terrible time trying to maintain a good center. My boots are 5-1/2 years old and I've worn through the leather lining inside in several spots.

I do like being able to bend ankles with well broken in boots, but I'm beginning to wonder if I'm giving up something too. Your post made me wonder.

Wish boots didn't cost so much!

Skate@Delaware
11-29-2006, 10:46 AM
Casey, this is a very interesting topic!!!

I have been on both sides of this blade-wise and weight-wise. My rink had soft ice when my saga began...

Started off four years ago with Mirage blades (they came with my boots which were Jackson Competitors-never really fit well (too big), which have an 8.0' rocker and I weighed about 220 +/-... I was just getting into spins and could center a scratch. Didn't really notice too much about edges and 3-turns, except that I didn't do them very well.

Blades were upgraded to Comets, 8.5' rocker, and my spins left me. I did notice that my overall speed improved dramatically, although my stroking was scratchy (either toepick going forward or scratchy going backwards). Edges were ok as long as my blades were kept sharp every 20 hours or so. 3-turns still sucked (operator error).

Fast forward to now. I have lost the weight (weigh 135), my rink has harder ice (tho still considered soft by most other's standards) and I now have been skating on Coronation Aces (7.0' I believe, at least that's what the website says) and Jackson Elites that fit (finally). My back crossovers are less scratchy if I concentrate and don't get lazy, my spins are just getting centered again...I do have problems with spins, mostly from auto accidents and the postural problems that still linger and poor technique.

I sharpen my blades at 1/2 roh about every 30 hours or so....although once I went about 60 hours and only then did I really start to skid. I have contemplated a deeper hollow but am afraid 8O ...Maybe later I will.

I've never found stopping to be much of a problem in any blade, it's the way that the blade is honed after a sharpening that makes the difference-done correctly it is less grabby.

Spinning is also better on medium ice. Too hard and your blade doesn't grab enough of it, you skip over the top and can't center. Too soft and you dig in and slow down. (Sigh) we are never happy, are we?

Team Arthritis
11-29-2006, 11:07 AM
Nice Thread!

I moved from 8' to 7' radius and found that moves were much easier but spinning was harder. I attribute the latter to the sweet spot being much further "UP" on the blade - i.e. your ankle must be much more extended which works my calves harder.

I also switched to the hinged Jackson boot which further changes dynamics but the biggest difference I see from the boot is better ankle and knee bend which helps my moves and, I think, helps my jumps too.

FWIW
Lyle

doubletoe
11-29-2006, 12:14 PM
It's true that the larger the radius, the more stability you'll have on your edges and the more speed you'll have on your stroking. I would imagine this would help you on spin entrance edges as well as on hard ice. Also, if you have Pattern 99's, then they have a lower stanchion, which means you are closer to the ice. That could help your stability as well.

Another thing that would help you on hard ice is the increased edge bite you'd get going from regular straight blades to side-honed blades (are your new blades side honed, by any chance? If they are Pattern 99, then I dont' think they are, but if they are Gold Seal, then they are).

That was an interesting point Team Arthritis made about the location of the "sweet spot" on the 8' blade being farther back. It could be that the better spinning is a function of *where* you like your weight on your blade rather than how round the rocker is, and that could be a matter of individual preference. Also, I find that with a rounder/smaller rocker, I'll get a nice fast spin if I get over the right part of the blade, but I'll completely mess it up and fall off the rocker onto an edge if I don't get right onto the sweet spot. That made it harder to hold onto my mediocre flying camel-back sit when I got new blades recently (compared to my old ones, which had gotten a little flatter with 3 years of sharpenings).

Skate@Delaware
11-29-2006, 01:11 PM
I had my scratch spin in the Mirage blades, then lost it when I "graduated" to Comets, which are a bit flatter. I am getting them again (and much faster ones) in the Aces. I did notice that I could not find the sweet spot in the Comets, no matter how hard I tried, and 3-turns were a devil. I don't have a problem with them now, but we had to work out the arms also.

On spins, I tended to fall back onto the heel often while in the Comets, but now that i'm in Aces, it's easier to get onto the ball of my foot. Whether or not it has to do with my posture, weight loss, improvement in technique, rocker change, ice temperature, or burnt offerings on the altar of the ice gods, who knows?

Team Arthritis
11-29-2006, 01:25 PM
or burnt offerings on the altar of the ice gods, who knows?

wait, does that really work? we could have our own pagan rights of spring:twisted:
Lyle

vesperholly
11-29-2006, 02:46 PM
Vesperholly: Was the dramatic improvement in spins, or in other elements?

I've had a terrible time trying to maintain a good center. My boots are 5-1/2 years old and I've worn through the leather lining inside in several spots.

I do like being able to bend ankles with well broken in boots, but I'm beginning to wonder if I'm giving up something too. Your post made me wonder.

Wish boots didn't cost so much!
Everything improved (once I got used to the new blades, which threw me on my face a few times). I especially noticed it on my double sals - the 3 turn was much more controlled.

Yes, you get good ankle bend in broken in/down boots, but when you bend, the boot should offer some "bounce back" and support you from *too much* bend. A broken down boot won't do that - it will just let your ankle flop all over the place. If you are having problems holding a strong edge, I'd say it's about time for new boots.

Skate@Delaware
11-29-2006, 03:00 PM
Everything improved (once I got used to the new blades, which threw me on my face a few times). I especially noticed it on my double sals - the 3 turn was much more controlled.

Yes, you get good ankle bend in broken in/down boots, but when you bend, the boot should offer some "bounce back" and support you from *too much* bend. A broken down boot won't do that - it will just let your ankle flop all over the place. If you are having problems holding a strong edge, I'd say it's about time for new boots.
Which also brings up the "good crease, bad crease" argument. We went through this with my daughter's skates. She had a crease, then her boots developed a deeper crease. The first crease was good, it was a sign of boot break-in, the second one was a sign of boot break-down. She was also fighting her spins, had leg and joint pain on her jumps, foot pain...etc.

GET NEW BOOTS!!!! Are you knees worth it? YES!!!!!

LilJen
11-29-2006, 04:08 PM
interesting discussion. I have skated on old crummy recreational skates with an i-don't-know rocker (hey, they were like $20 at a secondhand sports store and still better than rentals when i was taking LTS back in 1999-2000) and now have Riedells with Comets (8.5 rocker).

I have always SUCKED at spinning--meaning I really cannot get more than 3-4 revs on either one or two feet, and those are scratchy as hell and forced. Before I bought the boots with the Comets I discussed this with my coach--"hey, so am I ever gonna be able to spin, especially with the bigger rocker?" She thought that rocker wasn't really much of an issue (I think my spin issues are more to do with [1] lack of practice; [2] I get very dizzy very easily, and I'm just plain scared of spinning, i think [stupid, eh?] though that's improving; and [3] the sweet spot location means I really kind of have to feel as though I'm standing on my toe (ballet like) to get the sweet spot and I'm just not there yet).

I do get good speed, stablity and glide with these, and 3-turns are not a problem; edges are grand. All of these I like. I can't do a backward snowplow stop but that's just me and lousy technique--hockey stops, t-stops, forward snowplows are all groovy.

Oh, I am also trying to make the switch from CCW (where coaches started me) to CW, which I believe is my natural bent. I couldn't tell you whether my rink is hard or soft because I haven't yet developed the sensitivity.

I weigh about 135 right now (wishing for about 10 lbs to melt away magically).

Skate@Delaware
11-29-2006, 04:56 PM
Most of the girls at my rink use Comets successfully...their spins are great! I am the problem child and have had issues so the Comets really held me back. Maybe one day once I get the groove down with the whole spin thing, I can put some 8' rockered blades on my boots and spin like there is no tomorrow...but not today.

LilJen, spinning does get easier and you do develop a "resistance" to dizziness the more you spin! And there is nothing stupid about being scared of spinning! It is serious work and there is a lot of trust and security involved in whirling around so fast on one foot without falling over!!!

Award
11-29-2006, 06:20 PM
.....It is serious work and there is a lot of trust and security involved in whirling around so fast on one foot without falling over!!!

That is definitely true. Although, it is really really interesting how I've never seen anybody fly right out of control in a medium to fast spin. Not that I want to see it happen hahahaha. But that would be scary.

Award
11-29-2006, 06:25 PM
But these last couple times back were different - the ice felt GOOD, smooth, fast, not brittle...I didn't lose edges and fall.

It's possible that your techniques have changed or improved.

russiet
11-30-2006, 05:47 AM
Currently 6' tall, 160 pounds, 51 years old.

Started skating on hockey skates in 2001.

January 2005 Switched to figure skates with 8' rocker Ultima Mirage.

Switched to 7' rocker MK Pros September of 2006.

ROH: Started with 5/8" in January of 2005. Switched to ½" in September of 2005 and still use ½" now.

Here's something else I noticed when I compared my old & new blades side-by-side; the heel plate is 1/8" LOWER on the MK Pros. That seems significant to me. Imagine for a moment what it would feel like if your heel to blade distance suddenly changed by 1/8". That has to be a factor, don't you think?

Other observations:

The 7' rocker is much easier for me to spin on. I don't notice any different issues with edge hold, whether the ice is soft or hard.

8' rocker....I had big issues with inadvertant trips on the picks. Unless I really concentrated I scraped the picks when doing back C.O's. It was very difficult for me to center a spin.

Some of these differences are undoubtedly due to progress, but overall the 7' rocker is much more forgiving. I seem to be progressing faster at the moment, but that might be totally unrelated to the blade change. But as a justification for the cost of the new blades, I'll attribute my progress to them.

Skate@Delaware
11-30-2006, 09:16 AM
I should add, I am 5'6" and have long legs. Maybe that makes a difference in spins and stuff. or not. Helps to have something to blame from time to time...