Two Epiphanies :)

[Casey]

A couple neat things occured to me today and I thought I'd share.

First, due to bad weather here, I was discussing people who don't know how to drive properly on ice with some coworkers. One brought up the point that to maintain control, you need to watch where you're going, whereas a lot of people don't - they watch where they are.

It's the same in skating - beginners stumbling around are doing so because, uncertain of what to do, they're watching their feet. Skaters I've known for months who simply don't progress have the same bad habit. I think that even further, it extends into anything we're afraid of - perhaps you're used to skating at a comfortable pace, and going faster is scary - not because it's harder, but because you're used to focusing on nearby people/objects/ice, rather than ones more distant relative to your speed. So many of us get stuck on a jump - and it's not because we don't know how to land, it's because we aren't thinking about it. When I do a jump I'm familiar with, unless I'm working on fixing something, I don't think about the takeoff or air position - I think about the landing (i.e. "where I'm going") and what to do next. Certainly it's not the only aspect, but I think it's valuable to keep that in mind when struggling with something - overthinking doesn't work. Even in a different context, I hear so many adults set up reasonable, but limited, goals that they strive for. Kids don't do that - about every single post on icepartnersearch.com from a skater in their teens or earlier says that their goals are international competitions and the Olympics - they're setting their sights on where they're going, or hope to go, and it drives them. I can't help but think that by not striving for the highest goal, we don't limit ourselves without meaning to.


Secondly, I was thinking...about thinking. I reminisced about a memory from when I was young, and my mom had said something - I don't remember what - perhaps to think something instead of saying it, or explaining how thoughts work, or more likely just asked me what I was thinking and I couldn't explain it in words...dunno - anyways I remember thinking words in my mind, and thinking about how terribly awkward it felt. It wasn't smooth and efficient - it was weird and slow. I didn't think in English before - it was after that I started to. These days, all of my thoughts are pretty much in plain English - except when I'm working at something I'm good at, I don't really think in English then - things just flow. I can't help but wonder if that's why kids tend to learn faster - if it's that adults are thinking in English, and the kids, and perhaps the best skaters even into their adulthood, do not. It would be an interesting study to do a study/thesis on - but in lieu of that, I am going to try to stop thinking in words and see what happens. :)

Thoughts/insights/debate welcomed!

[LilJen]

I'm with you on the Seattle drivers and not knowing how to drive in snow--a total nightmare. So stupid, because there are so many skiers and there's a ton of snow just an hour east of the city, so you'd think more people would know how to deal with snow in the area. Anyway. . .

Oddly enough, the last couple of times I have been skating, the phrase "Aim high in steering!" has come into my mind (thank you, Defensive Driving School of Bellevue, WA, circa 1985). Means to look far ahead of you, and I guess I was relating it to the issue of looking out and up rather than down while skating, and of trying to visualize where my pattern would take me, and of trying to see the holes in the throngs of people on the ice.

But your point about goals is interesting. Me, I *have* to make small goals; otherwise I get very impatient and highly unrealistic in my expecations, when I see how far I am from Outlandish Goal #1. See, kids haven't yet had their dreams quashed by reality (!), whereas we adults have. : )

Anyhoo, I like your suggestion of looking where you're going for jumps. I will have to take that into my brain the next time I'm working on jumps (still summoning up the guts for a full-rev jump).

[Casey]

But your point about goals is interesting. Me, I *have* to make small goals; otherwise I get very impatient and highly unrealistic in my expecations, when I see how far I am from Outlandish Goal #1. See, kids haven't yet had their dreams quashed by reality (!), whereas we adults have.
Hmm, perhaps "goals" was too generic of a word - certainly you have to have small checkpoint goals along the way - you can't get to the Olympics without learning your loop first. :) Perhaps "ultimate goals" would have been better - I hear people say things like, "well if I can just get good enough to pass Bronze, I'll be done!" or "I'll never get a double". And so as to not give the wrong impression, if that's really all one wants from skating, that's fine too, but I do think it's limiting to think that way...

[LilJen]

Yeah--for me there are "dreams," which in reality I might never achieve, and there are "goals," which means something achievable. I do find myself getting stuck in the "oh, if I can just get these moves passed" mindset (I think many of us do, especially when the moves seem very onerous or difficult) and we just want to get PAST them (as Kate says in the practice thread, "I can't believe I still have to practice these") and it's helpful to remember why in the world I skate.

[Sonic]

Interesting thread Casey.

I set myself goals, but I have to admit they're usually pretty modest ones. I am very unathletic, asthmatic, slightly overweight and also quite clumsy person with little elegance and little apptitude for skating. That's not to say I'll never get anywhere, I'll do it through sheer bloody determination, but it would be silly in my case to set high goals, because I have serious self doubt as it is, and would simply get too upset by slow progress/others overtaking me...blah blah, if I aimed higher.

On the other hand, I do see your point that it can be limiting to set nothing but mediocre goals. After all, the only way olympic champions become olympic champions is because the WANT and above all the KNOW they are going to win. I have a motto 'be careful what you wish for because it might come true' - so if you allow your head voice to tell yourself 'you will only ever be a mediocre skater' - guess what?

Of course, I'll be the first to admit that I'm still in the process of learning to take my own advice lol!:D :roll:

I think you've made a very good point about jumps - and looking ahead.

In fact, maybe that's EXACTLY the approach I take when I start tackling the flip again....if it works I'll buy you a cyber-beer!

S xxx

[lovepairs]

Casey,

I agree with both paragraphs: first, Lee and I are going to go to the "real" Nationals in Pairs. We are going to take our Intermediate Pair test this spring, and are currently working on Novice Moves. Once Novice Moves are passed then we take the Novice Pair test...so on and so forth all the way to Senior, where there is no age limit, and if we make the cut at Sectionals we can go to Nationals. This is where we are aiming and just because we are adults doesn't mean we can't aim very high. Now, whether or not we actually make it there is really besides the point, because aiming high allows us to believe in ourselves, get very inside of the process, and by route become better skaters. Looking up and out, and seeing far ahead of ourselves is the goal and not necessarily the destination. We refuse to have limitations placed upon us, or place them upon ourselves, just because we are adults. End of story; this is how Lee and I think about it and have agreed to approach it.

Next, I say too many things in English upon approaching the Lutz jump. My list in English is toooooo long and, therefore, is interfering with my timing. It is important while learning to break things down, and to have very short phrases to cue yourself, but the ultimate goal is to just have it all be a "feeling" and no words. Skating is ultimately "pre-lingustic" and the magic is totally related to the Chora (Julia Kristava), which means purley sensational.

Here is something interesting. When first learning to pair skate, and when doing back crossovers together the tendency is for both partners to look into this totally abstract space in the center of the circle. It takes awhile for the man to look behind him (where he is going), and for the woman to actually turn her head and look at the man (the man is leading.) After years of being coached, Lee is looking where he is going, and then get this one (which I think drives your point home further) my coach is now telling me to look "through/past/beyond" Lee...to actually look to where I am going to...into the future!

[lovepairs]

Really good thread, Casey!

[doubletoe]

That reminds me of what my coach says when I am practicing my axel, double toe or double sal: "Go for the LANDING!"
I used to have such a mental block on the double toe until I finally started telling myself, "Land!" once I got up in the air instead of telling myself to do a backspin, or pull in, or any of the other rotation-oriented verbal cues. As it turns out, my body actually knew what I had to do in order to land backwards with more than 1 revolution, just like a cat's body knows what to do in order to land on all fours when it falls off of something (or what a piece of buttered bread does to ensure that it lands butter side down when you drop it!).

[Bill_S]

When I started skating again in 2000 at the tender age of 50, I told my coach that all I wanted to do was to learn one jump beyond the waltz, and to do a scratch spin. I didn't know what a three-turn was and had just pond skated as a kid (I learned the waltz jump on my own as a teenager).

Roll the movie reel forward almost 7 years and I can see that I was not satisfied once I got there. Just like car headlights on a dark road, once you arrive at a spot you once saw ahead dimly, you then see what lies a little further. I got past pre-bronze moves, and thought that Bronze would be a nice place to stay. After that Silver didn't look so far away. Now I'm working on Gold moves. The road trip continues...

For me I never thought about the "big picture", but somehow mustered through with reasonable progress.

[sue123]

Casey, I think your first point makes a lot of sense. I view the smaller goals as checkpoints or milestones, but not an ultimate goal. Actually, I haven't decided what my ultimate goal with skating will be. Maybe that will happen when I have unlimited funds. But it's great to have something to reach towards, although what do you do once you get to the top? Once you've won an Olympic gold, your dreams have come true already, haven't they?

Your second point, I'll be honest, I don't quite understand this English thinking vs. non English thinking, but then again, I dont know how I think. Do we think in a language? That could be another study all together. Although sometimes I feel like I think in a mix of English, Russian, and French all jumbled together, with a very occasional Hebrew thought in there. But is this really thinking, or are these thoughts that we would like to verbalize somehow but circumstances prevent us? Now I've gotten myself all mixed up, thanks a lot.

Although strange as this seems, and maybe it somehow fits into your theory, if I forget my contacts one day, I have to skate in my glasses. I don't like skating in my glasses, so I'll take them off if the rink is empty, like what happened the other day. I was literally the only one on the ice, so I figured there would be little risk of crashing into myself, and as long as I didn't go too near the boards, I'd be fine. So anyway, when I take off my glasses, I can't see a thing, but I skate much better, I guess because I have to stop looking at where the ice is, and I am forced ot trust myself more. My jumps become higher because I can't see the ice, so I'm not looking at it, I can skate faster because since I can't see things anyway, there is none of the "Oh my gosh, things are going faster." So maybe I'll just skate blind from now on. Although that won't work if there are other poeple around me.

[LilJen]

Although strange as this seems, and maybe it somehow fits into your theory, if I forget my contacts one day, I have to skate in my glasses. I don't like skating in my glasses, so I'll take them off if the rink is empty, like what happened the other day. I was literally the only one on the ice, so I figured there would be little risk of crashing into myself, and as long as I didn't go too near the boards, I'd be fine. So anyway, when I take off my glasses, I can't see a thing, but I skate much better, I guess because I have to stop looking at where the ice is, and I am forced ot trust myself more. My jumps become higher because I can't see the ice, so I'm not looking at it, I can skate faster because since I can't see things anyway, there is none of the "Oh my gosh, things are going faster." So maybe I'll just skate blind from now on. Although that won't work if there are other poeple around me.

Aww, so Ice Castles! "We forgot about the roses. . . " : )

Seriously, though, Sue, you reference something known as "kinesthetics"--that is, the feeling/awareness of knowing where your body/parts of your body are supposed to be without looking at it (say, in a mirror). Say a dancer would be looking at himself/herself in the mirror to be sure he/she has a pose correct; well, you can't always rely on the mirror, because when it comes to the performance: no mirror, just audience. So you have to learn to feel where your body is supposed to go.

We all have this sense--you read people saying "oh, i just *know* when I'm going to land that jump." It's a matter of developing it, of "listening" to your body, and it may be that you've been depending on your glasses to the point where you aren't listening to your body as much.

Do I sound like a wacko? Total fruitcake?

I totally understand Bill's point of view--I think that's where I am right now. Pre-bronze seems doable, and some of the bronze stuff seems doable/possible. I just can't see much further but I can imagine sticking with this for a long time without any specific goal in mind but to have fun, stay fit, and do something pretty.

[Sk8pdx]

A couple neat things occured to me today and I thought I'd share.

First, due to bad weather here, I was discussing people who don't know how to drive properly on ice with some coworkers. One brought up the point that to maintain control, you need to watch where you're going, whereas a lot of people don't - they watch where they are.


...yes, and the 3 car lengths I am purposefully leaving in front of me isn't the space for drivers to cut me off, it is supposed to be enough room for me to stop in icy driving conditions! :twisted:

... I think that even further, it extends into anything we're afraid of - perhaps you're used to skating at a comfortable pace, and going faster is scary - not because it's harder, but because you're used to focusing on nearby people/objects/ice, rather than ones more distant relative to your speed.

similarly, skydivers have said that even though they are droppping at say about 120 miles per hour, from 15,000 ft in the air, there is no sense of acceleration because there isn't a point of reference other than the horizon.

anyway, as far as skating goes, I have explored this in practice. Sometimes my scope of vision around the rink is merely the center circle. (warming up with crossovers for example). Skating might seem a little labored (then again, it is at 5:30 in the morning). I notice a difference when I begin to expand my vision and use the whole ice arena as my "circle" instead.

And of course, faster isn't always better. There is the added element of control to think about too. in which case there must be a balance between the two. (which has been debated aside already...) ;)

Secondly, I was thinking...about thinking. I reminisced about a memory from when I was young, and my mom had said something - I don't remember what - perhaps to think something instead of saying it, or explaining how thoughts work, or more likely just asked me what I was thinking and I couldn't explain it in words...

There are so many times I simply can't speak fast enough to say what it is I am thinking. In addition to that, sometimes words in our english language cannot truly express and articulate what it is I really feel (both emotionally and kinesthetically). I will use my loop as an example. (granted it is substandard in my own opinion) My coach can tell me to think about taking off from a back outside edge, she can show me exercises at the wall, she can tell me timing to think about during the jump "turn - hold- jump".

no matter how much teaching and thinking, there is no one who can tell me what a loop jump feels like on the inside until I experience it. (one of those nice big ones preceded by a huge "ripping" sound..:bow: )


dunno - anyways I remember thinking words in my mind, and thinking about how terribly awkward it felt. It wasn't smooth and efficient - it was weird and slow. I didn't think in English before - it was after that I started to. These days, all of my thoughts are pretty much in plain English - except when I'm working at something I'm good at, I don't really think in English then - things just flow.

I must be having a blonde moment here,:oops: can you explain this a little more?

Whenever I have a difficult time with thinking, In my daily routine, I carry a small notebook. I write and write and write. I love writing.

I can't help but wonder if that's why kids tend to learn faster - if it's that adults are thinking in English, and the kids, and perhaps the best skaters even into their adulthood, do not. It would be an interesting study to do a study/thesis on - but in lieu of that, I am going to try to stop thinking in words and see what happens. :)

Psychologists have studied this. It is called cognitive development.

Thank you, Casey, for such a refreshing discussion. :D
~sk8pdx

[Mrs Redboots]

just like a cat's body knows what to do in order to land on all fours when it falls off of something (or what a piece of buttered bread does to ensure that it lands butter side down when you drop it!).I have often wondered what happens if you tie a piece of bread, butter-side up, to the back of a cat....

Seriously, though, my coach often reminds us to "look where you want to go, and you'll go there". And I've heard one of the other coaches reminding his pupils: "You go where you look! And if you are looking at the ice, where do you think you'll end up?"

I hate skating blind, it gives me a headache, but can't skate in bifocals, so if I haven't my contacts for any reason, I do skate blind, but have never noticed any improvement in my skating!

British drivers, especially in the South of England, have no idea how to cope with snow! If we get 1/4" (known as "a blizzard"!), the country shuts itself totally down for the duration.

[Team Arthritis]

Wow Casey - wonderful thoughts - I often ponder the process of learning.

But goals - my big, most enduring, most satisfying goal is the process - my goal is to learn! I, and coach, have very little control over what I learn. eg. I'm struggling with brackets and BI3's, lots and lots of frustrating practice and lessons so now my SalChow is better because of it. That makes me happy even though I'm no closer to being able to do Silver moves.

Thoughts as words or as events/ mental movies - for me go back and forth both ways. Let me digress. We have a coach who I call an intuitive learner: she always stresses how a move should feel rather than how to do it. Very informative because that is how we judge a move in the end. But me, when I hit a stumbling block I need everything explained in excrutiating detail. I then force my coach listen to me as I explain it back to her. Coach complains that I can go so far as "overanalysis paralysis". But I need the words, all of them, to build my mental movie of what I need to do. If I'm really having troubles, its usually because there is something wrong with my mental movie and I need to hear the right words to fix my movie. Then, I go out and try to match how the move feels to what my mental movie makes me feel playing over and over again in my head. This is how I learn best.
Lyle

[Skate@Delaware]

That is how I learn also...I need to know where my arms, legs, etc. have to be during each second of a move....once I have it down, then I can "feel" if it's right or not, like hearing if a note is on key or not.

You can reach a point where you over-analyze too much, though. Sometimes you just have to clear your mind and let your body do what it feels like doing.

[mikawendy]

I have often wondered what happens if you tie a piece of bread, butter-side up, to the back of a cat....

Maybe it hovers mid-air, rotating one way, then rotating the other, like a magnet being flipped around by another magnet repelling it? Tee hee... :lol:

These days, all of my thoughts are pretty much in plain English - except when I'm working at something I'm good at, I don't really think in English then - things just flow.

When you're working at something you're good at, maybe you're experiencing what Mihalyi Czikszentmihalyi calls "flow" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csikszentmihalyi) and so you're doing the thing you're good at. The artist and researcher Betty Edwards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csikszentmihalyi) refers to something similar when she refers to people being in "R-mode" (right brain mode).

I sometimes feel that total flow/absorption when I'm working (so I feel pretty lucky to have a job in which I can feel that way). However, I work with words, so I think my thoughts at those times are probably still mostly in English.... :lol:

[Casey]

When you're working at something you're good at, maybe you're experiencing what Mihalyi Czikszentmihalyi calls "flow" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csikszentmihalyi) and so you're doing the thing you're good at. The artist and researcher Betty Edwards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csikszentmihalyi) refers to something similar when she refers to people being in "R-mode" (right brain mode).
Both of your links there go to the same page... ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Edwards

[Casey]

I must be having a blonde moment here,:oops: can you explain this a little more?
When I was little, I did not think in words, my thoughts were purely brain-functions and it could not be put into words without effort and loss (loss as in "lost in translation" or quality degredation from compression). Thinking in words is more laborious - slower and limited in scope, but it's what I came to do over time since then.

Whenever I have a difficult time with thinking, In my daily routine, I carry a small notebook. I write and write and write. I love writing.
If I had to guess, I'd say you think in words... :)

When you're working at something you're good at, maybe you're experiencing flow
Yes, that seems pretty close. I find it interesting because I said originally, "things just flow", but I hadn't read about it before. The wikipedia page on Flow was enjoyable, and I printed it out and highlighted bits and stuck it up at work. :)

[vesperholly]

That reminds me of what my coach says when I am practicing my axel, double toe or double sal: "Go for the LANDING!"
I used to have such a mental block on the double toe until I finally started telling myself, "Land!" once I got up in the air instead of telling myself to do a backspin, or pull in, or any of the other rotation-oriented verbal cues. As it turns out, my body actually knew what I had to do in order to land backwards with more than 1 revolution, just like a cat's body knows what to do in order to land on all fours when it falls off of something (or what a piece of buttered bread does to ensure that it lands butter side down when you drop it!).
Great tip - I'm going to use that tomorrow. I really overthink my axel entrances.

I think I know what you mean about thinking in other things than words. It's incredibly difficult to explain. For example, I just ran my hand through my hair to untangle it. I didn't think about my HAND and my HAIR and my FINGERS. I heard the rustle of my hair, I felt the pull on my scalp and sliding through my fingers.

I'm looking at a pen on my desk and I don't recognize it as PEN. I know it's a pen, what it does, how it will feel when I pick it up, the sound it will make on paper, et cetera, but this object is more than just the physical manifestation of the word PEN. Like a pure visual and physical knowledge of something without language.

[Sk8pdx]

When I was little, I did not think in words, my thoughts were purely brain-functions and it could not be put into words without effort and loss (loss as in "lost in translation" or quality degredation from compression). Thinking in words is more laborious - slower and limited in scope, but it's what I came to do over time since then.


If I had to guess, I'd say you think in words... :)

I guess that is what seems to be the norm (how boring is that?). Admittedly, I find it so unsatisfying as words don't seem to convey at all what I sense or feel no matter how much I pen onto paper.:??

Yes, that seems pretty close. I find it interesting because I said originally, "things just flow", but I hadn't read about it before. The wikipedia page on Flow was enjoyable, and I printed it out and highlighted bits and stuck it up at work. :)


What an interesting article! (Thanks mikawendy!) "What makes people tick" is the fascinating thing that I find enticing about Psychology -- and this "foreign sensation-like phenomenon" you have introduced does make better sense after reading it. Hmmmm. The next time I am up your way, would love to entertain more thoughts over coffee :yum: :D

[Casey]

I agree with both paragraphs: first, Lee and I are going to go to the "real" Nationals in Pairs. We are going to take our Intermediate Pair test this spring, and are currently working on Novice Moves. Once Novice Moves are passed then we take the Novice Pair test...so on and so forth all the way to Senior, where there is no age limit, and if we make the cut at Sectionals we can go to Nationals. This is where we are aiming and just because we are adults doesn't mean we can't aim very high. Now, whether or not we actually make it there is really besides the point, because aiming high allows us to believe in ourselves, get very inside of the process, and by route become better skaters. Looking up and out, and seeing far ahead of ourselves is the goal and not necessarily the destination. We refuse to have limitations placed upon us, or place them upon ourselves, just because we are adults. End of story; this is how Lee and I think about it and have agreed to approach it.
:bow::bow::bow::D:D:D:bow::bow::bow:

I love your attitude! You understand EXACTLY what I mean!

And I'll have you know, while I might not make the 2010 Olympics, I do intend to give Lysacek and Weir a run for their money trying...and then there's always 2014 to think about. ;) And of course Nationals, Sectionals, Regionals...and pairs also if I'm lucky! Gosh, I have a lot of work to do! 8O:giveup::lol: