How good should you be before you start teaching?

[Skittl1321]

Hi all- I need some advice.

In January I am going to switch from group lessons to private lessons. By then I should have finished all of the Basic 8s (not sure if I will pass 8, as we have only 2 lessons before "test" and we have not done the mazurka at all yet, but that is the only element missing). My conundrum, is that moving to private lessons means I no longer get free ice time for practice. With the price of privates (only slightly more than LTS), and ice (which I currently don't pay for at all. I get it free during lesson, and one session a week), I don't know if I can afford to skate!

So I'm thinking about approaching the skating director to see if she is looking for additional teachers for LTS. She has jokingly talked to me about teaching, I have "subbed" as a teacher for a beginning adult class one day, and I'm only looking to teach snowplow sam or basic 1/2. So it seems like she might be receptive. I love teaching but I'm also just looking to get a discount on ice time.

But, I've only been skating seriously since March and am just finishing the Basic 8s myself, so it "seems" too soon. Is a 3-year old's parent going to question my skating abilities? I'm a good basic skater and also have experience as an actual teacher (classroom, as well as camp counselor style activities), so teaching ability is not the problem.

Just guess I'm looking for opinions. Does talking to the skate director about this seem to be a good or a bad idea to you.

[phoenix]

I'd say it's up to the skate director. She might put you in as a 'helper' on a class or two to help get you up to speed on what's expected & how things run. Personally, I think that it's too early for you to teach anything beyond tots, maybe basic 1. Do NOT take on any private students even if the parents ask you.

Keep working on your own training, and keep skating. Your teaching background, combined with further training, will serve to make you a good teacher eventually. Start slow....and I'd recommend doing the PSA apprentice program if that's available to you there, or asking a higher level coach to mentor you. But the most important thing for you to do is continue to skate and learn yourself. You need to get some tests under your belt & a really really solid understanding of the basics, which takes more time/practice than one might think!

[Isk8NYC]

I second Phoenix's statements; we usually agree on these things. ;)

(Where's that "strongman smilie" when you need one?)

I'll add that, in order to teach rank beginners, you have to have good balance and strength as well. I "hover" over toddlers, to help them fall the right way. With adults, I slow down their falls so they don't get seriously hurt. Really tricky sometimes -- I'm barely 5'4" tall. If you can't support them, you run the risk of their being hurt or frightened by the fall. Even worse, you could take a tumble and/or get hurt. (Physically or pride-wise) Either way, it's easy to lose a new student if you can't protect them in the beginning.

As for working at rinks for ice/lesson discounts, there are other options for employment. The lesson helpers, ice guards, and cashiers all catch a break, too. Office staff are usually adults who take the discount for their kids' skating. In some cases, they "volunteer" their time in exchange for the expense reduction; other positions have very low pay with the ice/lesson discounts being a "perk."

[Skittl1321]

Thanks both for the replies. I think I will talk to the skate director, just to see what she thinks. I'm okay with "helpering" first.

I will also see if there are any other positions I can help with at the rink for a break in ice fees, but my reason for going to LTS is because those are all afterwork hours- I can't be at the rink during the day.

I've helped with the tots class once before and balance to hold them up isn't an issue- it definetly would be for adults, so thank you for bringing that up.

And, I certainly would not dream of accepting a private student! I know I am too low level for that!

I did a quick google search about the PSA apprenticeship program and although I don't yet know if it is available to me here, I have a question about it- if I'm not looking into coaching, just teaching the lower level classes, would you still recommend it?

[phoenix]

I did a quick google search about the PSA apprenticeship program and although I don't yet know if it is available to me here, I have a question about it- if I'm not looking into coaching, just teaching the lower level classes, would you still recommend it?

Totally, yes. At my rink, they use it specifically for people who want to teach group classes. There's a lot you can learn from people who've been teaching for years. Games, different ways to say things, tricks to overcome fear/hesitation, dealing with parents, etc. Lots of stuff goes into teaching a group beyond just a knowledge of the skills.

[Skittl1321]

Totally, yes. At my rink, they use it specifically for people who want to teach group classes. There's a lot you can learn from people who've been teaching for years. Games, different ways to say things, tricks to overcome fear/hesitation, dealing with parents, etc. Lots of stuff goes into teaching a group beyond just a knowledge of the skills.


Thanks.

And just to clarify- I totally understand that a mentorship sort of thing would be a very very good thing. I know I don't know near anything about games, tips to get ideas across etc, other than what i've seen already through my classes, or read on the coaches board, about teaching a class. I just wanted to make sure the PSA structure was the right way to go.

[sunjoy]

I have a somewhat related question. I've been skating for a year, most of it not in classes, although I've taken two months of learn to skate. I could probably pass pre-bronze moves if I tried.

I skate at general sessions with lots of total beginners. With the exeptcion of the skate guards, who don't usually help other skaters, I'm sometimes the most experienced at the session. Sometimes I see someone working on something for a while, (usually skating backwards), and I want to stop and tell them to try bending their knees and try to look towards the end of the rink rather than down at their feet. I'd preface this with "this probably won't help, but my coach always told me to...."

Thing is, I'm wary about giving the wrong advice, so most of the time, I keep my mouth shut. But it can be very rewarding to give the right tidbit of info. One time I saw a girl very persistantly trying back crossovers for a whole session, so I casually mentioned that my coach had asked me to keep my back straight and to almost feel that my lead arm was pulling me around the circle. Later her dad told me that the tip had helped.

Thoughts? It's not like I want to go around correcting people. Just when I see someone trying hard, and they are making an obvious beginner mistake. Maybe I should just encourage them and say they're doing a good job. That always helps. :) But if they ask for advice at that point, should I give it?

[MusicSkateFan]

I would say do some volunteer teaching first. The Learn to Skate programs are very large at many rinks and somtimes they need an extra adult out there for control! Fort Dupont in DC allows for volunteers and the skating director will give you free ice time for your work. This way you can find out if you are cut out for the teaching thing as well as getting ideas from current instructors. As a teacher in the public school system.....learning to skate and having the skating knowledge is far different than TEACHING it!

HAve fun!

[blue111moon]

Check into USFS's Basic Skills coaches education seminars. I've been to several (whenever they're held within driving distance) and found them helpful.

Personally, I think that teaching tots solely for the purpose of reduced ice fees is a disservice to the tots and their parents. I've been teaching tots/introduction to skating for over 15 years. I do it because I truly enjoy the little ones. I've turned down several opportunities to teach the more advanced levels because I don't enjoy them as much. Very often people who who are only doing it for the money/discounts don't put the time and effort into learning the skills needed actually teach the elements they know how to do themselves, but merely expect the skaters to copy what they do. While copying is one way that very little kids learn, there's way more to teaching than that - at least in my classes, anyway.

Over the years I've observed many people come into coaching little ones strictly for the money and they rarely last more than a season. Coaching tots is WORK and it takes skills beyond just being able to do the moves being taught. Beyond the actual skating skills taught, Intro classes, properly done, give skaters a love of the sport itself and encourage them to stick with it and have fun so that they want to advance. Genreally - and I'm not directing this at any poster here - I've found that the people who come to the directors asking to coach groups for the discounts (and at my rink, those are almost non-existent)or the extra money don't make the best coaches or stick with it very long. And since one director always assigns the newbie coaches to work with me to see how it "should be done" (the director's words, not mine), I've seen a lot of them. In fact, of the dozen or more skaters who have "interned" with me, I think only one or two of them actually stuck with coaching long enough to be put on the payroll. Everyone else decided that it's too much work.

Again, please note that I'm not directing this at any poster here. All I'm asking is that people considering going into coaching consider their motives and how much they are willing to put into the art, as well as what they can get out of it. For me, the money is the least of it.

[Skittl1321]

I wanted to direct this at blue111moon, although I do see that you said your post was not directed into anyone in particular. I don't want to offend people who do a wonderful job teaching tots, by making them think that I think that it's an easy thing to do.

Although the sole reason I am looking into teaching tots is reduced ice fees, it is because I really don't want to be a coach, so I'm not trying to work my way up in the structure. I just feel that I would be better suited to this than filing papers in the club office. I have a lot of experience working with preschoolers/ early elementary, in school, daycares, and at summer camps camps. (Although my actual teaching certificate is in middle school) I have recent undergraduate credits in elementary physical education- all my field work was in kindergarten, and these classes were all with the pedagogy of "keep the kids moving". This is definetly something I understand is WORK, and it's work that I enjoy.

I really just wanted to ask others if it was reasonable for a no-test skater to begin working as a lesson instructor. I fully expect to pay my dues learning the proper methodology and pedagogy that goes into tot lessons. But I'm time rich and dollar poor at this point.

I actually did talk to the skate director and she thinks I would be great with the little kids, so it will be a matter of if they have room on the staff. I didn't ask her if I'd be paid, or if it would be volunteer until I have experience. Either is fine for me at this point. I'd be happy to volunteer during lessons in exchange for ice time and learning how to teach. The one thing I do have going for me is I don't leave the city at semester break since I am not a student any longer.

[Isk8NYC]

Check into USFS's Basic Skills coaches education seminars. I've been to several (whenever they're held within driving distance) and found them helpful.This is off-topic but how do you find out about these? I've only seen the "Learn to Teach" seminars on the USFSA Events site once, at a distance too far away to drive. My Skating Director, who is on the ball and arranged seminars for our staff each year, never mentions that a USFSA seminar's available.

Do you just repeatedly check the USFSA Events site?

Back on topic: teaching tots takes a lot of patience and dedication. I taught Mommy & Me for years and, even now, I do "First Skating Lesson" privates for Tots. (Usually, just to feed them into group lessons.) They can be royal pains because there are emotional and physical issues, moreso than any other age group. (My personal favorite group age is pre-teens (7-11); for privates, I looove teenagers!)

[Hannah]

Thoughts? It's not like I want to go around correcting people. Just when I see someone trying hard, and they are making an obvious beginner mistake. Maybe I should just encourage them and say they're doing a good job. That always helps. :) But if they ask for advice at that point, should I give it?

I say yes. People at my rink are like this, and particularly in the adult session- if a new adult shows up and is a beginner skater, they end up skating with everyone at some point. It's like a group lesson where the students are coaches! However, the pointers that people give are things like "It helps me if..." or "I've been working on this forever, and I just discovered..." so there isn't any actual coaching.

Back when I was falling every third step, I was immensely grateful to the person who came over and said "Try bending your knees and leaning forward."

[vesperholly]

I really just wanted to ask others if it was reasonable for a no-test skater to begin working as a lesson instructor.
I don't want to be harsh, but ... no. Not unreasonable really, but just underqualified. It's not even necessarily about skill - you could be landing axels after skating for a year - but about time and experience. For example, would you want someone who just started learning French a year ago turn around and start teaching you? No, you'd want an expert. I think helping is fine - you can learn tips from the coaches and watch how they teach different elements. And dealing with parents is the trickiest point. Even at the lowest levels, parents will ask you questions about what their kid needs to work on, how they're doing, what about their skates, etc, etc, etc.

I know it just seems like a simple tots or basic 1 class, but it's really important to set a good foundation. Having professional, experienced coaches who teach correctly, make classes enjoyable, and offer knowledgable advice is really important to every skating program.

Thoughts? It's not like I want to go around correcting people. Just when I see someone trying hard, and they are making an obvious beginner mistake. Maybe I should just encourage them and say they're doing a good job. That always helps. :) But if they ask for advice at that point, should I give it?

Unsolicited advice is tricky - very easy to alienate people. I always ask first. "Do you mind if I give you a tip?" and I always say they're doing something good as well as something to fix: "Your knee bend is great but you're leaning forward too far, standing up straighter will help." I find that telling skaters what to do instead of what's wrong works infinitely better.

I am also very wary of giving advice to skaters who are better than I am unless they expressly ask me to watch something and comment. I wouldn't want to be told how to do my flip better by someone who can barely skate backwards. And even then, I try to keep it simple. I'm not their coach.

[Skate@Delaware]

Unsolicited advice is tricky - very easy to alienate people. I always ask first. "Do you mind if I give you a tip?" and I always say they're doing something good as well as something to fix: "Your knee bend is great but you're leaning forward too far, standing up straighter will help." I find that telling skaters what to do instead of what's wrong works infinitely better.

I am also very wary of giving advice to skaters who are better than I am unless they expressly ask me to watch something and comment. I wouldn't want to be told how to do my flip better by someone who can barely skate backwards. And even then, I try to keep it simple. I'm not their coach.
This is very good advice! I usually point out extremely obvious things to those unaware, i.e. skates that aren't tied tight enough, laces dragging, etc. But I'd rather skate than come across as someone "coaching or teaching" on the ice. We are not allowed to do so at our rink unless we have: insurance, are a member of PSA, have approval by the skating director, pay a fee at the desk, etc. (this was an issue last year with one of our adult skaters who was "teaching" kids during public skate). However, if someone solicits my advice, I can give that freely. But sometimes the girls ask me for advice and I'm not qualified to give it-their element is too high for me and I tell them that. There are no hard feelings that way.

[DallasSkater]

Well, this is just MHO.. but

While I support getting creative to pay for this very expensive sport, I am a consumer of LTS. I would have been less than pleased to learn that my LTS instructor was not someone with years of experience with their own skating and specific qualifications to teach the sport. It is expensive to take the classes. I started in adult beginners. I don't think I would have been willing to pay for even the beginner class and would have thought I was being devalued because of my beginner status despite paying the full fee for skate school. Truthfully, I would not have known to ask the right questions, but throughout each semester you learn about the instructor's background. I don't think most parents would feel any different learning this about their kid's instructor either.

I do wish you all the luck in what ever you decide to do. I don't want to discourage anyone either. But I do think it should be considered from the student/consumer/payors perspective as well.

[mikawendy]

This is very good advice! I usually point out extremely obvious things to those unaware, i.e. skates that aren't tied tight enough, laces dragging, etc. But I'd rather skate than come across as someone "coaching or teaching" on the ice. We are not allowed to do so at our rink unless we have: insurance, are a member of PSA, have approval by the skating director, pay a fee at the desk, etc. (this was an issue last year with one of our adult skaters who was "teaching" kids during public skate).

ITA, Skate@Delaware! One time, I gave a ride home to a skater who needed a ride home, and on the way there, she told me she had gone up to another adult skater at the rink and asked the skater if she could offer her a few pointers. She told me the skater declined and couldn't understand why someone would decline her advice (and the person who wanted to offer the advice said that she knew her advice was good because her coach in xxx state was xxx famous skater). I tried to explain to her that since the advice wasn't solicited, the person she was offering it to had every right to decline the advice. I also said that sometimes a person's coach has a specific way they want to teach something, so the skater may not want to take tips on certain elements from anyone else. (I think I also remember reading someting about the anti-poaching parts of the PSA code of ethics that offering unsolicited advice can be considered poaching in certain cases....)

Anyways...Skittl1321--one idea--since you have an extensive background with young children (and have an education background), your skills might be particularly useful at a skating minicamp or day camp (such as the ones offered in the summer) that offers on and off ice activities. You'd probably know well how to keep the little ones engaged and having fun.

[Casey]

Thoughts? It's not like I want to go around correcting people. Just when I see someone trying hard, and they are making an obvious beginner mistake. Maybe I should just encourage them and say they're doing a good job. That always helps. :) But if they ask for advice at that point, should I give it?
I give advice freely, but not to people I don't know - only friends or people who approach me with a question. And I often say things like, who knows if this is actually correct, that's what you should get a coach for! But I'm not a member of the right way or nothing school of thought - I think a lot can be learned even doing things wrong and experimenting rather than always striving to do something an exact way. The "fun" aspect of skating is wildly undervalued, and if I'm helping a friend, that's all it is, for fun. If you want more structured lessons to really work on progressing, that's what a paid coach is for. :)

[Isk8NYC]

DallasSkater - I hear you and agree. Teaching adults requires different skill sets and experience in teaching. Years of skating as a requirement? Probably a good idea, as long as the students aren't blinded by the "competitor achievements." Many really good competitors make really bad instructors. LOL

When I first started teaching, back in the early 1990's, it was because a friend talked me into it with the lure of free skating for myself and my 4-yr old DD. At that rink, I received absolutely no training before being thrown into a group class on my own. My DD hated her instructor and wanted to be with Mommy. I toughed it out for the season, but it was rough.

Thankfully, a short time later, I also started teaching at another rink some distance away. That rink had a coaches' meeting, went over teaching techniques, gave us the ISI group lesson coaches' manual, and really did it the right way. While I didn't have my DD in lessons, I did learn a lot from that skating school.

In fairness, Skittl is saying that she's going to do it the right way.

I don't think you need to be a USFSA gold medalist to teach tots. It's a different skill set from the other age groups - you need instructors who will keep the kids engaged, help them have fun, and mix in some learning. That age group is very tough because many of them aren't ready for the noise, the separation from parents, and the structure of classes. For some, it's their first time away from Mommy. My little twins had a wonderful group lesson instructor when they started. This woman didn't test very high, never competed, but she's the perfect toddler instructor because of her background as a Pre-K teacher.

[Skittl1321]

Well here's the deal-

I thought about what everyone said, and decided that I would talk to the skate director and let her decide. She seemed very receptive to it, and said "you'd be so good for the kids", but it all depends on the numbers. Of course, if someone better than me is available, it doesn't make business sense to use me... but isn't it better to have someone than to have to cancel a class? With the tots, I wouldn't be the only instructor, because they always have more than one. It would be a disservice to place me with Basic 3, even though I know the skills, because I don't know how to lead them through navigating the actual skating world and would be their sole instructor. Basic 3/4 is when kids tend to decide if they are in it for "real" or for fun. And I realize I can't help them with that.

But with tots, I'd be part of a team, and I think I'd be a good part. I'm smart enough to refer a parent with a question I can't answer to someone else- and I'm definetly smart enough to realize my boundaries. (No privates!!! No higher levels).

I thought about the "would you want someone who has only spoken french for a year comment" and it made me think. No, I wouldn't want them teaching me. Or my my high schooler. Or my "championship french bowl elementary team", but if they were to be a part of team of teachers supporting my 3 year old in learning how to count to ten and say the names of the colors, I'd be okay with it. (After all, a lot of preschools do "language" and the teachers- at least the ones at the school I was at- could ONLY count to 10 in the three different languages they "taught")

So now it's up to the skate director. I have had her for one session of classes, and she has seen another. She knows how I skate. I have helped her with adult beginners and with tots, so she has an idea of how I interact. It's just up to her now. I won't be offended if she can't use me. I'll just be broke, and that's okay too.

[blue111moon]

About the USFS Basic Skills seminars: I find them through the USFS Basic Skills website. There's also a Basic Skills page on the New England InterClub Council website (www.neicc.org) that I check. The Webmaster, Roland Bassett is one of the chairs of USFS' Basic Skills Committee so the information is accurate and pretty current. He also has a Basic Skills mailing list but I'm not sure if that's just New England events or national. His contact information is on the site.

The seminars rotate through the regions. Although I've found they are generally geared to much larger programs than the ones I teach for, the workshops are helpful and I've picked up some good ideas and tips for teaching tots. As for driving distance - well, close is relative, Last time I went it was nearly a three-hour drive across two states but I figured it was worth it, if only for the additional line on my resume. If I'm teaching the USFS Basic Skills program, I should be familiar with the way they want things done.

:) Although I cannot get used to the swizzle/sculling/slalom terms they use. To me, swizzles are snaky, two-footed consecutive s-shaped curves which USFS now calls slaloms, I think and what USFS calls swizzles - the toes-out toes-in half-circle pushes which lead to one-foot c-pumps - are what I call sculling. It doesn't matter much because the four-year-olds don't care what I call them; they just do them. But I always feel as if I have to translate terms in my head when I'm at the seminars. :)

[skaterfan]

Wow! This is very interesting to me in Canada it is a very long process to become a coach. Many courses, hours of coaching to receive your certification before you can ever coach at any Skate Canada club and receive payment or money. We do have program assistants generally skaters at a club that help out the professional coaches but they are not allowed to receive any money. The club usually gives them a Xmas gift etc.
Recently, Skate Canada has made the coaches have manditory police clearance checks as well as current first aid certification. Coaches must pay a fee each year to register and are not allowed to coach at any Skate Canada club without proof of registration. Not even allowed to step on the ice.
We have strict guidelines as to what levels of coaching you have determines what you can coach and this also bases what you can charge etc.
I find it so interesting that other countries are so different it seems much easier to be a coach elsewhere, where here in Canada its so difficult. We must have proper accredation for competitions or we are not allowed entry!
As for helping out with young kids I think its great to see people that enjoy the sport that much that they want to give back but as for people receiving money for that??? I would think it takes away from professional coaches who are trying to make a living if people are being allowed to coach who really aren't certified are getting positions that they could have. I mean clubs may think this is a way of saving money??? Why pay a coach if people are willing to teach the learn to skate programs in exchange for ice time or cheaper fees??? What state and quality will these programs be in????
Thanks for the insight into how things work in the US.VERY INTERESTING!!!!

[Mrs Redboots]

Indeed, it's very similar here in the UK - it's at least a year's training before you are even a level 1 coach, and at Level 1 you aren't allowed to teach unsupervised! And if you are a low-level skater, the process is even longer - several hundred hours on-ice, as well as the mandatory seminars, first-aid training, police checks and various examinations.

And rinks do not employ unqualified coaches, because of the insurance. Yes, sometimes unqualified skaters are asked to help out with group lessons, but this is very much at the discretion, and under the supervision of the head coach.

[Team Arthritis]

Wow! This is very interesting to me in Canada it is a very long process to become a coach. Many courses, hours of coaching to receive your certification before you can ever coach at any Skate Canada club and receive payment or money. ????
Thanks for the insight into how things work in the US.VERY INTERESTING!!!!

yes, much to our detriment I'm afraid. It leads to a real disinsentive for upper level coaches to teach group lessons. They finally made this mandatory at our rink and even groups' assistants have to get the lowest PSA certification at our rink now.
Lyle

[Skittl1321]

yes, much to our detriment I'm afraid. It leads to a real disinsentive for upper level coaches to teach group lessons. They finally made this mandatory at our rink and even groups' assistants have to get the lowest PSA certification at our rink now.
Lyle


I'd love to see this happen at my rink- and I'd be willing to accept that I couldn't teach because of it. Because that would mean I would be guaranteed to get a good lesson coach. Currently, all of the group lesson instructors I have had experience with were great. I am very very happy with the quality. But the girl who "helps" (assistant?) is a 12 year old who is in Freestyle 1, and can't do mohawks much better than I can. That frustrates me. I don't see it as perpetuating the system by hoping to teach a level I know I have mastered at an age group I have worked with as a teacher before.

But, if every instructor had to have a PSA certification, I can think that 3 of my last 4 rinks might not have any group instructors.

(And I don't consider a coach to be to be the same thing as an instructor... but I also don't think most of the coaches at our rink are PSA either)

[Isk8NYC]

The PSA isn't the perfect solution, either, as DBNY would point out. When the first question on the certification exam is "What does PSA stand for?", you know there's some updates needed. Joining the PSA doesn't buy you much other than the magazine. You have to pursue, at your own cost, seminars, mentoring and training. While the apprentice program is great for young incoming coaches, midlife career changers would find it difficult to find a mentor with a compatible schedule.

In the NY/NJ area, only a few arenas require PSA membership. I actually sponsored my Skating Director last year; she's never been a member but now the USFSA requires it for the higher-level competitions. Many rinks simply use the PSA certification as a "barrier to entry," hoping to reduce the competition among instructors. Wherever you have a lot of coaches or instructors chasing after a few students, you'll see the PSA certification brought up, including the "Excellence on Ice" program. The cost of having every instructor in a facility carrying insurance, PSA membership (not certification) and "seeking to obtain or maintain a rating" (requiring PSA-sponsored education seminars) is prohibitive, unless the facility is willing to help defray the expenses.

The next step for the US skating industry is to create a national registry for skating instructors with a structured training and certification plan. It's been bantered about recently, so hopefully it will come to pass in a meaningful way that will include the less-expensive online learning. Still, nothing beats a good mentor.

[Isk8NYC]

Just as a footnote, I'm not sure if everyone has the same knowledge of skating schools. I go way back to the 1980's as a young adult. I know, not that far back, but there is a history before then that's interesting.

Back then, in my area, the schools were basically crapshoots. If you had a great school director, s/he would set up levels and tell the instructors what to teach during the sessions. If you weren't so lucky, the guy in the office handed you a long roster and said "group them by age." Private lessons were for the gifted kids whose parents had money. The Skating Clubs (then only USFSA) often offered group and private lessons on their ice rental time, which brought them new members. (Those group lessons were usually well-structured.)

When the ISI set up the curriculum for rinks to using in running skating schools, they designed it to "feed" the rink's public, freestyle and hockey sessions and offer an alternative path for skaters who weren't able to compete in USFSA. They didn't want to lose any skaters, regardless of age, wealth, or skills. That's why their levels are both restrictive and challenging at the same time - to keep skaters interested in skating. They are a participatory competitions. If you don't get the gold this competition, just try again - no qualifiers needed. Plus, the ISI offered insurance as part of their membership fees. Many rinks became ISI members for that reason alone! To keep the instructors on the same page, the ISI offers FREE education seminars each fall for their instructor members, along with judging test prep that helps them understand how to teach better. Smart, except that everyone gets stuck at some level because of some move on an ISI Freestyle test.

The USFSA's Basic Skills program didn't exist until the early 1990's. It was designed to provide the same opportunities and feeders that the ISI had been draining away. The USFSA was smart: they decided to build a progressive curriculum that leads toward the standard tests tracks. (The MITF was introduced around this time in response to the dropping of compulsory figures in competitions. That's why skaters don't usually get "stuck" in the "Basic 8" levels - everything's more or less at the same level of difficulty within a Basic Skills test. There are some instructor seminars, but I haven't caught any of them. (As discussed before - are they free?)

Both of these LTS programs offer rewards, incentives, participatory competitions and test registrations. The difference is in the structure and how each rink implements it.

PSA membership has no impact on either LTS program - they're both preset curriculum. The difference is in the school's Director and how they train their incoming coaches, experienced or not. When you're ready to start taking ISI Freestyle or USFSA adult- or standard-track tests, absolutely, you want an experienced coach. But to teach "march, march, march, glide?" I want a good teacher that's going to keep that family coming back because they had a great experience.

[Debbie S]

(I think I also remember reading someting about the anti-poaching parts of the PSA code of ethics that offering unsolicited advice can be considered poaching in certain cases....)Well, this applies if the person giving the advice is a PSA member. In that situation, the person is a coach and yes, making comments to another coach's student would be considered solicitation. For example, if a coach goes up to a skater coached by another coach and tells that skater, who might be new to competitive skating, that their coach is taking advantage of them by charging a particular fee that is a standard coaching fee for comps, and suggests that the skater get a new coach (and then sends one of their students to that skater to suggest his/herself as the skater's new coach - called 3rd party solicitation and another PSA violation), then that would be considered poaching. Or if the coach sends 3rd party to tell a skater that their coach isn't skilled enough to teach them, that is definitely a rule violation. Repeated behavior like this on the part of a coach often draws the ire of the rink management, and can lead to the coach getting kicked out of the rink.

In the case of offering advice to fellow skaters, when neither is a coach, I think Skate@Del and vesperholly made good points. It's better to give advice only when asked for it, or if you have a friendly relationship with someone, skate with them often, and they've given you advice in the past. In that context, advice is considered a friendly, well-meaning gesture. But only give advice if it's within your means - about a year ago, another adult skater (a few years younger than me) who was working on Pre-Bronze-level moves, called over to me as I was skating and asked if she could give me a tip. I happened to be breaking in new skates that day, and decided to do the Bronze forward and back perim stroking patterns after spending 15 minutes doing crossover figure 8s and getting bored out of my mind. I'm sure that the Bronze moves didn't look too good, as I was struggling to bend my ankles, but this woman rarely skated the same sessions as me and didn't know much about how my skating usually looked or that I had just gotten new skates.

I was a bit annoyed that someone who barely knew me (or my situation) decided after watching me skate one pattern that I was advice-needy, but what I found really annoying is this person didn't even know (or had ever practiced) the moves I was working on, and her skills were quite a bit lower than mine, so how the heck did she think she was qualified to give me advice? :roll: I politely declined. But I've taken advice from some higher-level adult skaters, b/c I know they know what they're talking about and I admire their skating ability, and I know they are well-meaning....and their advice usually works. :)

[flo]

It was pretty common when I shared ice with the kids to share tips. Most of us have the same coach and it helped relations between the kids and adults which was usually pretty good, so we didn't worry about PSA ethics or paoching. One of the kids was Kimmie, and she and the others were great - givingand taking. Unless it's really disruptive, I usually listen to the kid. None of us were really teaching, just helping out.

I have taught, and encourage folks to be responsible in their teaching, that is not teach beyond their means, and don't be afraid to refer to another person.

[mikawendy]

I think a big part of sharing advice is also the spirit in which it is given. In the case of the adult skater who I gave a ride home, it almost sounded like (to me, and maybe I was reading it wrong or am remembering wrong) she was offering the advice in the spirit of "You're not doing this right, and I know it, and I know I'm right, because I have xxx fancy coach, and you should take the advice, because I can fix what you're doing." That struck me as a touch patronizing, and a lot different from, "Gosh, you look a bit frustrated, could I offer a few pointers on what helped me learn to do that?"

And Skittl1321, I hope your arrangement at the rink works out! Have fun working with the tots!