The Skater Shuffle

[Isk8NYC]

It's not a new ice dance; it's that problem beginners often have where they can't/won't pick up their feet. Often, it's just one foot, sometimes it's both! :frus:

The longer it goes on, the less progress the skater makes. IT MUST BE STOPPED!

Okay coaches/instructors, here's your assignment.
Answer these two simple questions:

What causes the shuffling (aka: scootering)?

-and-

How can we stop it?

[phoenix]

As far as the cause, so long as their skates are holding their ankles enough, I think the main thing is fear of gliding on 1 foot, very foreign feeling at first.

With beginners I have them march & I want to HEAR the thump as the foot comes down. Do it at a stand-still at first, that should be pretty do-able. Then moving slowly but with BIG clump-clumps across the ice. Their knees should lift--could have them touch each knee as it comes up to make sure they're doing it.

If it's with little little kids, I do variations of a game that I've found are very effective.

Draw BIG BUGS all over the ice, lots of them close together......the kids go across that area & they have to STOMP on the bugs! Tell them you want to hear the stomp. They love it! And they're too busy stomping the bugs to be thinking "oh no I'm picking up my feet!"

Expanding on this, I draw whole obstacle courses, & with different actions to be done depending on what they come across: stomp the bug, hop on the frog, slide (glide) down the chute, swizzle over the jellyfish (don't get stung!), turn around on the 'tornado' (just a curly-cue swirl). You can use your imagination, really gets them moving.

[AshBugg44]

I think that it is mostly just fear and that as the child becomes more comfortable being on the ice, it will go away. I tell kids that I want to hear their feet too, and it works as long as I'm there, but when I go away they go back to sliding their feet.

[Isk8NYC]

I think it's often caused by their skates being too big or too loose.

The marching drills sound like fun. I really like the bug stomp.
I sometimes draw 'logs' on the ice for them to step over, but the speedy ones are dangerous!

When they are able to push, I have them ride imaginary scooters across the ice by pushing with one foot only.
Of course, I always pick their "weakling" foot...:twisted:

[dbny]

I agree with AshBug that it's primarily fear. I also do the bug stomp and stomping in puddles is good too. Another thing that sometimes works, and I always start them with this (learned it from Isk8NYC) is to tell them to pick up their knees, rather than their feet. I start them with that off ice and tell them to look at my knees and march with me. Every kid is different and you just have to keep trying new things until something works.

[Isk8NYC]

(learned it from Isk8NYC)Yeah? Really? Hmmm. I forgot that approach! LOL

ETA: Ah, I remember! It goes with my "Let's Have a Parade" routine. They pretend to be in a marching band - one drums, one plays the coronet, one has big cymbals. We march across the ice ("Let me hear your feet make noise! March, March, March!") playing in a band and making the sounds. "Knees High, Heads UP, doo da doo...."

I have a new script: we pretend to be clocks.
Our feet go "TICK! TOCK!" as we march, then "Shhhh..." then mouse runs down as we glide with "quiet feet."

I'm having fun, hope they are also! *chuckle*

[mdvask8r]

I agree that the skates may be too big or improperly tied. Makes them feel very insecure.
Many times these are the same students who always have their feet spread wide apart. It's very difficult to shift the weight to one foot when the feet are so wide.

[AshBugg44]

tell them to pick up their knees, rather than their feet.

I always tell them that as well, and it definately helps! I tell them to "lift your knees to the ceiling!"

[Isk8NYC]

Many times these are the same students who always have their feet spread wide apart. It's very difficult to shift the weight to one foot when the feet are so wide.I know this is off-topic, but I've noticed that the "wide spread" skaters often have skates that look too narrow! These are the same kids that struggle when we do outside edges because they're constantly using their inside edges. When you look at the laced-up skate, the space across the laces is so wide, you can almost see the edges of the tongue.

I have the skaters do an exercise before we start working on swizzles (sculling). Line 'em up on one of the hockey lines and have them march 3x with both of their feet ON the line, then 3x with their feet OFF the line. It helps them balance with feet together and apart, which is necessary for sculling. (Otherwise, they get stuck! LOL) Once they've mastered that, add gliding - "Glide ON the line, glide OFF the line; feet together, feet apart."

On topic:
I know there are more coaches/instructors lurking out there!
More tips to conquer the Skater Shuffle and the Wide Walker, please!

[mdvask8r]

. . . before we start working on swizzles (sculling). Line 'em up on one of the hockey lines and have them march 3x with both of their feet ON the line, then 3x with their feet OFF the line. It helps them balance with feet together and apart, which is necessary for sculling. (Otherwise, they get stuck! LOL) Once they've mastered that, add gliding - "Glide ON the line, glide OFF the line; feet together, feet apart."

Oh, I like this.
For the 2-foot glide I like to tell them "Feet together and hold and orange between your knees, but don't squeeze or you'll have orange juice." Helps to get the knees aligned and keep them off the inside edges. Once they feel the stability of the knees over the toes & the feet under the center of the body, they seem more willing to pick up the feet.

[mikawendy]

Another possible reason for scootering, at least when the skater is pushing only with one foot, could possibly be side dominance? When I first started skating, I could only stroke really well with my left foot, and I think it's because I've always been more comfortable with my weight on my right foot.

Ironically, when I stroke now, I feel better pushing with the left foot, but I'm told that my pushes with the right foot look better and use the blade better.

[Isk8NYC]

Another possible reason for scootering, at least when the skater is pushing only with one foot, could possibly be side dominance?Maybe, but how do they stroke/glide or even walk using only one foot? Not making fun of you, just a wry observation.
(Like "I can't skate because I have weak ankles." - "How do you stand or run, then?")

There are some kids who come to lessons with a definite side preference. They're usually not the scooters, though. That preference shows up when we start working on one foot glides, turns, and pushes. They can't position their "weak" feet to do t-starts on one side. (Most can't do them on either! LOL)

Interestingly, many of them tell me "I'm a lefty, I can't do anything with my right side." I don't know if that's self-fufilling prophecies, parental influences, or an actual disability (so to speak.) I know you're a southpaw, Mika. Were you a scooter skater at the beginning?

[mikawendy]

Maybe, but how do they stroke/glide or even walk using only one foot? Not making fun of you, just a wry observation.
(Like "I can't skate because I have weak ankles." - "How do you stand or run, then?")

There are some kids who come to lessons with a definite side preference. They're usually not the scooters, though. That preference shows up when we start working on one foot glides, turns, and pushes. They can't position their "weak" feet to do t-starts on one side. (Most can't do them on either! LOL)

Interestingly, many of them tell me "I'm a lefty, I can't do anything with my right side." I don't know if that's self-fufilling prophecies, parental influences, or an actual disability (so to speak.) I know you're a southpaw, Mika. Were you a scooter skater at the beginning?

I guess the only time the "weak ankles" argument would hold water is if the skater is referring to not being able to keep the ankles from rolling out/in. (But, um, then that also involves the leg muscles higher along the leg, so it's not just "weak ankles"....so, uh [in best Emily Litella voice] never mind...:D )

Yes, when I was a kid (and skated only at the occasional birthday party, in my mother's very old skates that are only one layer of leather and NO support) and then when I started skating outdoors at public sessions as an adult, I had scooter foot--I could only get a good push from my left foot onto my right foot. Once I started group lessons and worked through a few series of lessons, that started to go away. But for many months after that, I was very aware of preferring to push with the left foot and glide onto the right foot. And in general, my right foot prefers to do a lot of stuff and that's the foot I learn things much better on in general (3 turns, rockers, beginning attempts at counters). (And yes, I'm lefty in terms of handwriting and also I skate CW. But I cut and throw righty. I can't recall if I bat lefty or righty because I always get those two mixed up. Also, in high school, I did track and field. In the triple jump, I always did the hop taking off from the right foot (which I've started to wonder is maybe what led me to start jumping CW along with the fact that spinning CW on my right foot was easier).

[Isk8NYC]

One of my twin DDs is a lefty. She bats righty in softball and spins CCW.
One of my twin DDs is a righty. She's a "switch hitter" (but mostly righty) in softball and spins CW.

Whatever works.

I usually test the skaters to see which foot is dominant. I think I learned the technique here.

Have the skater stand on both feet.
Drop a glove on the ice and ask the skater to GENTLY kick the glove.
If they ask which foot, say "Whichever's more comfortable."

If they kick with the right foot, they're a CCW skater; the left kicker is CW.

It's only failed me a handful of times.

[Skittl1321]

Have the skater stand on both feet.
Drop a glove on the ice and ask the skater to GENTLY kick the glove.
If they ask which foot, say "Whichever's more comfortable."

If they kick with the right foot, they're a CCW skater; the left kicker is CW.

It's only failed me a handful of times.

I would have failed your test :( (I can't even pass that, how will I ever pass pre-bronze?)

But if you had thrown it behind me and asked me to turn around and get it, I would have lead over my right shoulder.

-One of the reasons I was very nervous about being a CW skater is my right side is very dominant, but I just COULD NOT spin CCW. When I finally tried CW spinning worked great (it's also my better way for 3-turns, and backward crossovers), but I got scared i'd never be able to jump because my left foot was too weak to land on. The strength of my left foot caught up to my right quickly, but now I am still trying to do a CCW two footed spin (so I can do synchro) and can barely do a revolution, and still manage to get dizzy


Oops, sorry to butt into the coaching thread. I just really find the CW/CCW thing interesting.

[Emberchyld]

I know that I'm also jumping onto a coaching thread, too, but the CW/CCW thing really is interesting (I agree with you, Skittl1321).

I'm a righty who prefers to skate like a lefty-- CW is a lot easier, and I had a coach once offered an interesting theory. I have a ballet background, and even though we're trained to turn and jump, etc, in both directions, there is a heavy bias towards CW turns (I know that in lots of classes I've taken, we have a tendency to go across the room to the right more times than to the left, and choreography in both my jazz and ballet performances had 99% pirouettes going CW). It does make a lot of sense...

Just thought I'd throw that into the mix.

[thumbyskates]

Have the skater stand on both feet.
Drop a glove on the ice and ask the skater to GENTLY kick the glove.
If they ask which foot, say "Whichever's more comfortable."

If they kick with the right foot, they're a CCW skater; the left kicker is CW.

It's only failed me a handful of times.


I too would have failed your test. I jump CW but would kick with my right foot too. I'd turn around and pick up a glove and turn to the right.

However, since I've started coaching and teaching all students that I have CCW I think I was meant to go CCW because sometimes when I skate on my own now I get confused, and am unsure of which I'm supposed to use - momentary lapse of remembering :)

[Skittl1321]

Wow. Now I'm really interested. Do you have any data (this made me laugh- thinking of you doing empirical studies on turn direction) of using this test to determine spin direction for kids vs adults?

I think, for me, the dance experience is what did it. I'm not a well trained dancer- I did drill team/competitve dance, which means 99% of the turns I did were rotated CW. When I switched to ballet as an adult "left" (CCW) turns were so hard for me to get a hang of.

For now, I generally learn it both ways and then practice it CW on my own time (because the CCW one never seems to work out as well). Since I take group lessons with the kids, it really confuses them that I go the wrong way. I don't think it hurts to keep trying both ways though. I still can't do a 2 foot CCW spin and I'm making good progress on the 1 foot CW ones.

[vesperholly]

I know this is off-topic, but I've noticed that the "wide spread" skaters often have skates that look too narrow! These are the same kids that struggle when we do outside edges because they're constantly using their inside edges. When you look at the laced-up skate, the space across the laces is so wide, you can almost see the edges of the tongue.
Interesting. I had a older girl in class this year who had what I called "frozen legs". She had good balance, but looked terrified to move anything. And she had a really tough time with swizzles because her feet were stuck so wide - wider than her hips. I tried to get her to step over the painted lines, but it didn't help much. Her foot would come half an inch off the ice and zoom back like it was magnetized. I think it will go away as she gets more comfortable on the ice (the class is Basic 1) but boy is it frustrating!

As for the CW/CCW discussion ... you'd all have a field day with me. I started out as a CW skater, learning up through lutzes, and then at 14 I switched to CCW because my new coach said I spun better that way. My old coach had a *lot* of CW skaters, so I wonder if she even bothered to test my preference. Now I jump and spin exclusively CCW, but because of the early learning, I can still spin CW - mostly backspins/back camels/flying camels. I used to be able to do decent singles CW but I don't practice them anymore because they mess up my doubles. Some of my turns are stronger CW, BI rockers the most notably. I really surprised my most recent coach when I did the fast rocker/choctaws from Novice MIF much, much better CW. But the 3-turn pattern was better CCW. I'm bizarre!!!

[Mrs Redboots]

You'd have a field day with me, too. My outside and inside 3-turns are both better clockwise. I jump anti-clockwise, and my Mohawks are better in that direction.

When I started spinning, I automatically spun clockwise. My coach now makes me spin in both directions, and a friend pointed out yesterday that my clockwise spin is far better than the anti-clockwise one, as my posture is better! Which I had suspected.....

Oh well...

[Isk8NYC]

My old coach had a *lot* of CW skaters, so I wonder if she even bothered to test my preference. I taught myself to spin CW as a teenager, but when I started lessons, the coach switched me to CCW. She was a CCW skater. I can do a simple one-foot spin in either direction, but I'm much stronger CCW. I have a very strong back spin, and I think it's because of my "first spins."

I've noticed many CW coaches have mostly CW skaters. I could understand the "moving" kids seeking a CW coach, but I wonder if you're right. Maybe coaches teach in their own direction and, as long as the skater doesn't complain, they stick with it.

I once watched a head pro dress down an instructor who allowed a student to spin CW and jump CCW in her class! The lecture was loud and embarrassing, the coach quit afterward. *shudders*

[Isk8NYC]

I had a new adult skater take her first lesson with me this week. Her edges and crossovers were so much stronger on one side, I assumed she was really a CCW skater.

I was suprised when she did a (shaky) CW spin.

Gave her the glove test and she did it as a CCW skater would. On a hunch, I had her try spinning CCW and voila! A strong two-foot spin with arm control! (Maybe she was just mixed up - she hasn't been in a class for months. She did say her last coach was a CW skater.)

[Skittl1321]

I once watched a head pro dress down an instructor who allowed a student to spin CW and jump CCW in her class! The lecture was loud and embarrassing, the coach quit afterward. *shudders*


Our LTS director said when she skated competitively she turned and jumped in opposite directions. She said it caused her so much confusion, as well as always seeming as though she was on the wrong foot when she stepped out of a spin, she will not allow children to do it... but if an adult really wants to, she won't stop them.

Me- I hope I can eventually go CCW, because it seems like it would just make life easier. But for now I'm just practicing both ways and making much stronger progress CW.

[quarkiki2]

I came from a very strong dance background (15 years of six-hours a week lessons, chorus in a semi-pro ballet company) and got on the ice and spun on two feet in both directions equally well, so I simply picked CCW to make life a little easier. Which turns out to be a little goofy as my RBO (landing edge) is easily my weakest, LOL!

My best turn off-ice would be a natural CW backspin.

The hardest adjustment for me wasn't the idea of turning or spinning, but the idea that the stinkin' floor moves. I'm reprogramming my body and my instincts to agree that when I push on the floor (ice) it's OK if it makes me move. I'm so used to the floor pushing back off ice... I just with the quarkiki v2.0 wouldn't take so long to program, LOL!

[Emberchyld]

:?? The hardest adjustment for me wasn't the idea of turning or spinning, but the idea that the stinkin' floor moves. I'm reprogramming my body and my instincts to agree that when I push on the floor (ice) it's OK if it makes me move. I'm so used to the floor pushing back off ice... I just with the quarkiki v2.0 wouldn't take so long to program, LOL!

*lol* As a "new" skater and an "old" dancer, I have a lot of the same problems... That, and little things like leaning forward in a spiral (versus keeping your foot "attached" to your head by an "invisible line"-- how my teachers first described arabesque).. and getting chewed out by a coach for not opening up my leg enough on the spiral (which feels like an "ala'ca'besque" (ala seconde meets arabesque!) to me.

And skating is killing me on spotting. I still have a tendency to spot on the ice and my spotting in ballet class has gotten shoddy :?? .

*sigh* But that's what makes freezing my butt off on the ice fun, I think...

[Stormy]

Ressurecting this thread because I think I need help/advice. I haven't taught tots in a few years. I just started teaching again this year and it's been mostly Basic 4 type skaters, which has been great fun. But another LTS school now has me teaching tots, and I think I'll be with them the rest of the session. Today I had 3 little boys (3 and 4 years old) who absolutely could NOT stand up. One was in rental hockey skates and his feet were everywhere, one was in rental figure and he did the best of the three, and one was in his own hockey skates. The rental figure boy could eventually get up on his own and stand and even march a little, the other two couldn't even march in place without falling. I spent a lot of time picking them up. I'm not sure what will be able to do with them. We tried the sit down and get up a lot, but the hockey skates boys were just all over the place. I did tell the rental hockey kid's mom that he would probably be able to stand/balance better in figure skates if she's going to continue to get him rentals. But if I can't even get them to stand up in place to march, what can I do with them? 8O Any advice???

[vesperholly]

Ressurecting this thread because I think I need help/advice. I haven't taught tots in a few years. I just started teaching again this year and it's been mostly Basic 4 type skaters, which has been great fun. But another LTS school now has me teaching tots, and I think I'll be with them the rest of the session. Today I had 3 little boys (3 and 4 years old) who absolutely could NOT stand up. One was in rental hockey skates and his feet were everywhere, one was in rental figure and he did the best of the three, and one was in his own hockey skates. The rental figure boy could eventually get up on his own and stand and even march a little, the other two couldn't even march in place without falling. I spent a lot of time picking them up. I'm not sure what will be able to do with them. We tried the sit down and get up a lot, but the hockey skates boys were just all over the place. I did tell the rental hockey kid's mom that he would probably be able to stand/balance better in figure skates if she's going to continue to get him rentals. But if I can't even get them to stand up in place to march, what can I do with them? 8O Any advice???
How is it that they are falling? Are they wobbling all over the place with their upper bodies? Do they reach for the ice when they start to tip? How long can they stand up for?

I tell my students to stand "still like a statue" and "freeze! Don't move a muscle!" I sometimes throw in a Statue of Liberty reference to keep them thinking about stillness. That seems to work better than telling them to stand up straight or stop flailing. Some of the really wee ones don't have the best physical control at that age, too, so it might just be a little bit of getting used to the balance. I have found that boys tend to be worse than the girls, coordination-wise.

If they tend to look down, ask them what color their eyes are - "I can't see your eyes, what color are they? Are they (insert silly color like orange)?" - and then ask them if they can see what color my eyes are.

You might want to start the beginning of class off-ice. I'm sure they can stand up and walk in their skates off-ice (if they don't, you have a bigger problem ;) ). Have them stand in a gliding position. Put their arms out. Bend the knees - make them do little squats and then stand up straight. If the floor isn't too filthy, have them sit and get up. And keep telling them that the ice isn't no different. The same things you do on the floor, you do on the ice to keep from falling.

With tots, the learning curve is amazing. Some kids I think will NEVER do anything are off like a shot a few weeks in. They may surprise you yet. :)

[Stormy]

They were falling both ways you described, wobbly upper bodies and then reaching for the ice as they went forward. I really couldn't get them to stand for more than say, 5-10 seconds or so. Not long enough to really get them to try to march. I had two of them fall close to each other and one almost got hit in the face with the other one's blades, luckily I was able to grab his skate!

I think trying to start the class off ice will help, I will try that if the skating director lets me. They only have 25 minutes of lesson time.....that felt like the longest 25 minutes of my life on Sunday! THanks, Vesper!! Any other advice is appreciated. :)

[vesperholly]

Oh, I totally forgot - do you have anything that they can hold on to? Cones, walker things? In both the tots classes I have had, they all start out using cones. Then I space out the cones on a circle and have them skate from cone to cone. Eventually they get confident enough to not use them, but the first few weeks are really cone-heavy.

[Isk8NYC]

I always have/ask for assistants if there's a lot of floppy skaters.

FWIW, I occasionally use cones at the end of class, when they're getting a bit tired. It helps them get through the end of a 30 m. class - 20 minutes is much better for little ones.

I've found that kids in this area tend to get attached to the cone if you start them off with it right away. Then, whenever they go skating, they want a cone. The parents love it because they don't have to hold the kids up. Bad news is, it contributes to scootering because they can't learn to march with the cone. I don't have access to the walker things - we don't use them because of tripping that occurred at other rinks. I would think that the walkers would be better since you CAN get them to march.

Always start beginner tot classes off-ice with falling down and getting up. They'll get dirty, but it's much easier to reteach on the ice than to try and teach it for the first time.

On ice, I sit the little ones on the ice in a big circle to start. We do stretches and spin around on our tushies so we can see how slippery the ice is, but it doesn't bite. (No ice alligators here!) Then, we practice falling down and getting up several times. (I help them fall.)

Next comes marching with tiny steps. I add a "tick tock" sound to it and then a "shhhh!" teaches them to glide with "quiet feet."

If anyone falls during class, they get a quick spin on the ice from me, which changes frowns to giggles.

Mandatory: helmets, ski pants, and gloves/mittens. I won't let a kid on the ice without them.
(I put my own helmet in the car, so I'll remember to start using it myself.)

I had a beginner this weekend that was on hockey skates.
After the lesson, the mom and I laughed about what a workout the helmet received!

Our staff recommends using figure skates for at least the first LTS session (10 wks) and then switching over to hockey skates.
A beginner has to learn to balance side-to-side on either type of blade.
A beginner on hockey skates has to learn to control the front-to-back balance much more than a skater on figure blades.
The hockey blade is more curved than a figure blade, which is why many hockey players struggle with figure skates - they're used to being able to use the front of their blades.

[dbny]

As Isk8NYC said, hockey skates are much harder to learn in, and I always recommend starting in figure skates. You could also check the sizes the kids are wearing, as most people don't know to get skates a size smaller than the street shoe. Put large skates together with loose lacing and hockey blades, and you've got a lot of time sitting on the ice.

I always start my beginners off ice. I begin with posture, including arms & hands (in front like driving a truck, or on the table pushing down). Then we "march" by picking up the knees. I always tell them not to even think about their feet, just pick up the knees. Next is what to do if you're falling (grab knees). I finish the off ice lesson with falling (from hands on knees position) and getting up. It takes about 5 to 10 minutes depending on the number of students and is well worth it. It also gives you a chance to spot any problems with boots and laces before you get on the ice with the kids.