Weekly Advice Thread (10-16 Nov 2006)

[Casey]

Sorry I've been somewhat quiet as of late on last week's thread...haven't been skating too much. I figured I'd better start a new one since nobody else did, and it seemed to be a good enough idea that people actually used it. :)

In the last 24 hours I've managed to twist/bruise both of my knees (separate accidents), so I'm not sure how soon I'll really be able to take advantage of the advice, but I'd like to start this week's thread asking for advice on the waltz jump, and how to attain good form in all jumps.

I know flexibility is somewhat of a limiting factor, but I simply cannot seem to get the free leg to swing through BEFORE takeoff, which I understand is the correct way to do it. When I try that, I end up not really jumping at all, and ending up stumbling about trying not to fall after a disastrous attempt. :roll: I've had the best luck doing the jump from a cross roll entry, jumping immediately after stepping onto the takeoff foot, but while that helps correct the shoulder alignment a bit, I still can't get the free foot to swing through right...

Also I know on all my other jumps that my arms are god-knows-where, something new and exciting every time! ;) Not really sure about shoulders or head or well...anything...I don't usually even think about it. So any advice on things to keep in mind during jumps to get better position would be appreciated!

Looking forward to hearing what everybody else is working on this week too. :)

[mikawendy]

Can you practice the takeoff off ice to get the feeling of having the free leg swing before the takeoff?

[Mrs Redboots]

Husband is beginning to work on his flip again after 7 years or so (he hurt his knee quite badly the first time he tried to work on it, gave up free skating for six years, and now is a bit scared of it). What he thinks he has found out is that really, it's not that different from the loop jump, except that you pick in rather than jumping off the edge. Is he right?

[NickiT]

Husband is beginning to work on his flip again after 7 years or so (he hurt his knee quite badly the first time he tried to work on it, gave up free skating for six years, and now is a bit scared of it). What he thinks he has found out is that really, it's not that different from the loop jump, except that you pick in rather than jumping off the edge. Is he right?

I know that if you do a bad flip and take off from the blade more so than the toe, then it could be mistaken for a loop, but personally I find that the flip and the loop are two totally different jumps and both feel very different!

Nicki

[techskater]

Husband is beginning to work on his flip again after 7 years or so (he hurt his knee quite badly the first time he tried to work on it, gave up free skating for six years, and now is a bit scared of it). What he thinks he has found out is that really, it's not that different from the loop jump, except that you pick in rather than jumping off the edge. Is he right?

I had a Masters Man tell me the same thing WRT the double loop versus the double flip. When the double flip takes off correctly, it DOES feel like a double loop in the air.

[Mrs Redboots]

I know that if you do a bad flip and take off from the blade more so than the toe, then it could be mistaken for a loop, but personally I find that the flip and the loop are two totally different jumps and both feel very different!

NickiI think he's meaning the feeling, as you take off, of the legs and the rest of the body - not the toe-pick! But he has yet to try more than a half-hearted attempt on the ice (jumping up without rotating and jumping and rotating, but not yet trying to land it - I suggested he try the American half-flip, too).

[luna_skater]

I know flexibility is somewhat of a limiting factor, but I simply cannot seem to get the free leg to swing through BEFORE takeoff, which I understand is the correct way to do it. When I try that, I end up not really jumping at all, and ending up stumbling about trying not to fall after a disastrous attempt. :roll: I've had the best luck doing the jump from a cross roll entry, jumping immediately after stepping onto the takeoff foot, but while that helps correct the shoulder alignment a bit, I still can't get the free foot to swing through right...


Actually, no. If your free foot is passing your skating foot before you jump, you are taking off too late. Assuming you jump CCW, you want to have a good bend in your L ankle so that when you bring your right foot forward, you can jump off the L foot when your R foot is right beside it (at which point you should be driving your R knee up to assist in getting height). When watching others, it does often look like you don't jump until the right foot has passed the left, but that is an illusion.

Other waltz jump tips...when you are taking off, keep your L side leading. Think of jumping straight out, off the circle, not around it. When you bring your arms in, keep them at your right shoulder. You want to take off with your left side leading, but when you're in the air you need to transfer your weight to the right side.

[renatele]

Actually, no. If your free foot is passing your skating foot before you jump, you are taking off too late.


This is pretty much how I was taught to do waltz jump as an axel prep, too. It felt to me almost as if I was actually waiting to jump first - in reality, both things happened simultaneously, I guess.

[Casey]

Husband is beginning to work on his flip again after 7 years or so (he hurt his knee quite badly the first time he tried to work on it, gave up free skating for six years, and now is a bit scared of it). What he thinks he has found out is that really, it's not that different from the loop jump, except that you pick in rather than jumping off the edge. Is he right?
Well I've never heard it compared to a flip, but in some parts of the world closer to you than me, the flip is also known as the toe salchow. I find it to be very similar to the salchow, with a pick involved. Sometimes I'll actually miss the pick, and turn it into a salchow last minute.

But, if it feels like a salchow it's probably cheated, because you're supposed to get the picking leg back straight behind you (no bent knee!), and then really pull your shoulders back when you jump. It's one of the last things I worked on when I still had a coach and the ones she said were the best were by far the scariest... ;) These days, I think 90% of my flips are cheated... :/

[looplover]

Husband is beginning to work on his flip again after 7 years or so (he hurt his knee quite badly the first time he tried to work on it, gave up free skating for six years, and now is a bit scared of it). What he thinks he has found out is that really, it's not that different from the loop jump, except that you pick in rather than jumping off the edge. Is he right?

That's what helped me learn it. In fact my coach had me to the toe picking, then turn it into a loop, so I could get the feel of toe picking and making sure I transfer my weight to my right toe. It definitely helped.

[Casey]

I think he's meaning the feeling, as you take off, of the legs and the rest of the body - not the toe-pick! But he has yet to try more than a half-hearted attempt on the ice (jumping up without rotating and jumping and rotating, but not yet trying to land it - I suggested he try the American half-flip, too).
Do you mean what we call pop-ups here? You go into it like a flip, i.e. with LFO3, then pick up the same and land on the picking foot with no rotation?

[Casey]

Actually, no. If your free foot is passing your skating foot before you jump, you are taking off too late. Assuming you jump CCW, you want to have a good bend in your L ankle so that when you bring your right foot forward, you can jump off the L foot when your R foot is right beside it (at which point you should be driving your R knee up to assist in getting height). When watching others, it does often look like you don't jump until the right foot has passed the left, but that is an illusion.
Oh, good, well that does indeed sound far simpler. I had just heard from a few people recently that it actually passed in front just before the takeoff...I guess it probably just comes down to feeling different to different folks, but when I tried that I couldn't make it work at all. :P

Watching a couple older videos in slow motion, it looks like in one that I'm taking off much too early, and swinging the leg around much more than through - the other one looks better as far as timing goes but instead of swinging a straight leg through I'm really bending my knee a lot then straightening it somewhat once in the air.

When I can skate again, I'm going to try thinking about jumping right when the feet are next to each other, which will only happen if I swing through properly...reminds me of dance where you always have to bring the feet back together... ;)

[Mrs Redboots]

Do you mean what we call pop-ups here? You go into it like a flip, i.e. with LFO3, then pick up the same and land on the picking foot with no rotation?Probably, yes.

[mikawendy]

Pop-ups are helpful for learning the lutz, too, especially getting that crucial feeling of pulling back to the skating leg.

I've been able to get away with not pulling back very much on a flip and actually rotating it (yes, the jump looks terrible that way), but not pulling back to the picking foot on the lutz jump just doesn't seem to work--I've never been able to fully rotate a lutz or land it on one foot if I'm not pulling back to the picking foot.

Question about the flip: what does it mean if I'm having trouble holding the check before the pick? I do my FO3 and have trouble on the BI edge (usually it has subcurves) and while my arm on my picking side is back, the shoulders are closer to being square than they are to being truly checked. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong....

[Casey]

So today I tried a handful of waltz jumps...didn't wanna push it as my skating was pretty crap as I haven't skated much in a week or two, and one of my knees (the takeoff one at least) is still pretty sore. For the first time ever, I tried jumping /out/ of the circle rather than staying in it, and that was weird...it felt like I had extra time in the air though the jump was pretty sloppy overall. What was interesting is that I jumped, then noticed that the forward leg was really bent, then straightened it somewhat, waited a half second, then landed. I think maybe the reason it felt like there was extra time was because there were the two distinct air positions. Neither was very good though, so I won't call it progress, but it did make me think of another question...

Once the leg kicks through and you takeoff, should the torso (shoulders and head mainly I guess) be facing forward or to the inside? I guess I'm not 100% clear on exactly where the rotation is supposed to happen.

[Thin-Ice]

Pop-ups are helpful for learning the lutz, too, especially getting that crucial feeling of pulling back to the skating leg.

I've been able to get away with not pulling back very much on a flip and actually rotating it (yes, the jump looks terrible that way), but not pulling back to the picking foot on the lutz jump just doesn't seem to work--I've never been able to fully rotate a lutz or land it on one foot if I'm not pulling back to the picking foot.

Question about the flip: what does it mean if I'm having trouble holding the check before the pick? I do my FO3 and have trouble on the BI edge (usually it has subcurves) and while my arm on my picking side is back, the shoulders are closer to being square than they are to being truly checked. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong....

When I do that, my coach has me just skate into the 3-turn at the speed I normally would when doing the jump (faster than I would normally go into a 3-turn!), do the 3-turn, and put my toe in the ice.. and STOP! Then she has me check my body position.. is it really checked? If not, we do the entire exercise again until I am really doing the "skate-into", the 3-turn, and checking it hard before I'm even allowed to put my toepick in the ice. If I can't hold the BI edge of the 3-turn, I find out pretty fast. This works pretty well for me, because I can't get much of a jump if I rush the 3-turn.. and making sure I've thoroughly checked the turn means I'm not rushing.

[Team Arthritis]

FWIW popups practicing for the Flip were what damaged my knee the most.
Lyle

[Mrs Redboots]

FWIW popups practicing for the Flip were what damaged my knee the most.
LyleThanks, Lyle.... Mind you, if his knee even thinks about hurting, he stops. Quote of the day from him: "Oh..... the more I get my picking foot behind, the easier it is to rotate this jump!"

[doubletoe]

Question about the flip: what does it mean if I'm having trouble holding the check before the pick? I do my FO3 and have trouble on the BI edge (usually it has subcurves) and while my arm on my picking side is back, the shoulders are closer to being square than they are to being truly checked. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong....

Try the 3-turn pushoff I shared with Jazzpants not long ago: Stand on a line and push off a little to the right of the line (assuming you are a CCW skater) for the entrance to your 3-turn. Do the 3-turn to the right of the line, and then exit, pick and jump. Now look at your pick mark and make sure it is either on the line or on the same side of the line as your 3-turn. You should never cross over the line. This exercise helped the stability of my flip takeoff a LOT. And of course, focus on pulling your right shoulder back and keeping your left hand extended in front of the middle of your chest. Also, make sure you can still see your left hand when you feel your pick go into the ice.

[xofivebyfive]

Okay so my issue is with the flip/lutz/loop/... well every jump I guess. I have successfuly been able to land all of these, but my coach is worried about me getting a wrap leg. I seem to instead of lifting my knee up when I jump up, just leave it there crossed and resting against my other foot. But whenever I try to bring my knee up, I feel like I'm going to pop my jump. I just need some advice with the flip and lifting your knee when going up.. I keep doing where I jump up without rotation but I just can't transfer it to the real thing.

[luna_skater]

Once the leg kicks through and you takeoff, should the torso (shoulders and head mainly I guess) be facing forward or to the inside? I guess I'm not 100% clear on exactly where the rotation is supposed to happen.

When you are still facing forward, you want to be facing more to the outside of the circle than anything. If you find yourself facing the inside of the circle, you are probably still jumping too far "around" rather than "out."

My coach has me concentrate on keeping me head looking to the right (CCW jumper), as well as bringing my arms in on my right side. This helps with the transfer from forwards to backwards.

You also mentioned that the jump felt sloppy...this may be due to not keeping your upper body in a strong enough position. When you check out on your landing, remember to keep your L arm slightly forward, and your R arm slightly back.

Another thing to watch is your hips. When you take off, make sure you are moving your hips forward, and that you are leading with the left hip. Don't "leave your hips behind." This will also cause you to swing around instead of jumping "out."

If you get the take-off right, the rest of the jump mostly falls into place.