Weekly Advice Thread (3-9 Nov 2006)

[Casey]

In the same spirit as the weekly practice threads, I thought it would be nice to have another weekly thread just for asking for and giving advice and insights on whatever people are working on.

Thoughts?

[froggy]

great idea!

im getting a tiny itty bit of improvement on my sit spin, the 3 things that have helped a lot are the following:

1. think "very very deep LFO edge to enter
2. bring right arm and right leg in together
3. concentrate on keeping "left side strong" w/all my weight, ..i kept falling onto my right side which was strange since if anything most people just fall splat on their rear when doing the sit, my coach pointed out i wasn't committing my shift in wt to my left side, so to "over correct" i think of having everything to the left

[Casey]

Anybody have any amazing insights that they experienced when learning the backspin?

I can't seem to get any control of it no matter how much I practice :(

[Skate@Delaware]

Anybody have any amazing insights that they experienced when learning the backspin?

I can't seem to get any control of it no matter how much I practice :(
I find it "amazing" that I can't do this very well......and my husband can!

Anyway, my coach has me do it from a pivot. My arms are sort of out to the side/front (in between) and the left one is back a bit further (I spin ccw). I "flick" my left toepick on the ice and leave my leg out before bringing it to my ankle (you have to wait until the spin really starts to happen, about 2 revs). She doesn't have me bring my leg very high, only to the ankle right now, we will raise it when it gets better. When my leg is to the ankle, I'm to bring my arms in. You have to keep the spinning leg sort of relaxed and when you are centered, straighten it up (just like the scratch spin). Keep your shoulders the same as the scratch spin.

Sometimes if you go into any spin too fast and uncontrolled, it is harder to control so take it slow and easy at first.

[techskater]

Doing consistent double jumps is all about timing.

[Isk8NYC]

I like backspins. My weakness is getting OUT of them - I wimp out too often and just take the easy way out (LBI edge). I know WHAT to do, I just don't do it always.

Remember that for CCW skaters, back spins are done on a RBO edge. That means you have to get your weight centered over your right side, the opposite of the regular CCW spin.

I always feel like I have my back to the spin. One exercise I do when I teach it is to start with a RBO glide in that unusual spin position. Walk through the stages - open, across, touch, hug, slide, and open again. I have the student do it first on the hockey circle, then I move them in a few feet toward the center, then keep moving them closer to the circle center until they're doing it around the dot in the center of the circle. (Or, I draw a smilie on the ice as a target. "Don't step on his face!" LOL) This way, they gain security in the position, which feels "backwards" as one of my freestyle skaters told me last week. (Mind you, this kid is an "ambidextrous skater" like Rohene Ward. He can jump and spin in both directions, not really that well, but he's getting better every week.)

My other backspin tips:

Stay down on the skating knee for at least one revolution, while you "arrange" your free leg and arms. (A few notes follow)

Do the 3-turn entry (RFI) with your free leg in an open position, slightly out to the side.

As you turn let your hip close so the free leg ends up in front. I tell the kids to let their hips "catch up" with the free leg - as if it could float in the air.

Keep the free leg in front of you as you rise on the knee and be sure the hip is closed before you try to pull in the arms and free leg to do a scratch position.

I rarely teach it from a back pivot because very few students HAVE a good back pivot that we can build on easily. I focus instead on the RFI three entry. It's a lot more work, but eventually they have to learn it that way anyway.

[doubletoe]

My bad habit on backspins is keeping my weight too much over my right hip and too far back when I push off onto the entrance edge. When I get a good backspin, it's always when I remember to go into the entrance edge with my weight over my crotch instead of over my right hip and think about being on the ball of my foot and on the inside edge. I also have to consciously think about bringing my right arm all the way around to the front as I do that half circle on the entrance edge.

[Isk8NYC]

doubletoe: when you approach the entry edge, how do you check the inside edge with your arms/shoulders?

[doubletoe]

doubletoe: when you approach the entry edge, how do you check the inside edge with your arms/shoulders?

I counter-rotate my shoulders to the right before pushing off onto the RFI edge, but sometimes I leave my right arm out instead of swinging it around to the front so that both arms are out in front of me and my shoulders are squared by the time the entrance edge is done and it's time to spin! (too many brackets, maybe? :lol: )

[e-skater]

I like backspins. My weakness is getting OUT of them - I wimp out too often and just take the easy way out (LBI edge). I know WHAT to do, I just don't do it always.

My other backspin tips:

Stay down on the skating knee for at least one revolution, while you "arrange" your free leg and arms. (A few notes follow)

Do the 3-turn entry (RFI) with your free leg in an open position, slightly out to the side.

As you turn let your hip close so the free leg ends up in front. I tell the kids to let their hips "catch up" with the free leg - as if it could float in the air.

Keep the free leg in front of you as you rise on the knee and be sure the hip is closed before you try to pull in the arms and free leg to do a scratch position.

I rarely teach it from a back pivot because very few students HAVE a good back pivot that we can build on easily. I focus instead on the RFI three entry. It's a lot more work, but eventually they have to learn it that way anyway.

Hey, thanks for the tips on the RFI three entry. I saw 2toe's below also, which is helpful.

Oddly, the only way I could finally get a backspin was from a back pivot! Now I am working on the RFI three entry. I've gotten a couple of slow two or three rev backspins with that method. I bet you guys' tips are gonna help me. Coach and I have not worked on this entry, so I'm hoping to surprise her by at least demonstrating that I'm "getting the idea". (her favorite phrase it seems! LOL!)

[flo]

Try jumping into a backspin, or entry from a very deep inside edge, like an inside bauer.

[doubletoe]

Try jumping into a backspin, or entry from a very deep inside edge, like an inside bauer.


Oooohh! RFI Bauer-3-turn-backspin? I need to try that, since it's my loop jump entry! I normally avoid the whole entry edge by just doing it as the second position in a combination spin. :roll:

By the way, how exactly do you enter it from a pivot? Is it a RBO pivot (on the left toe)? How do you do the transition?

[Amandaskategirl]

For backspins I think about having my arms at a 90 degree angle with my left arm in front and then pulling them in tight (with left arm over right) as soon as I have completed the three turn. I found that it helps to think about standing tall and upright throughout the spin with the weight over the little toe. That helps for some reason.

Also, backspins are one of those moves which really improve through practice. I remember them feeling very odd and awkward at first but you will get used to the feeling quickly.

My backspin is probably my best spin - no stupid spin entrance to go wrong, hehe!

[flo]

Doubletoe - give it a try. I let the back trailing foot linger a bit and then snap it in. Makes for a nice element if you also exit in a bauer the other way.

[xofivebyfive]

I'm having an issue with my left leg on my loops.. and my flip too. I used to be able to do them no problem.. but now my left leg crosses in front of the right and it's kind of like a leg wrap. I think I lift my foot instead of my knee. It's worse for the flip because I can't get my balance to land on my right foot. Any tips?

[Amandaskategirl]

I struggled with crossing my free leg on loops and flips for a long time, I am trying to think about what helped. Just really try and focus on drawing your left leg past your right foot and through, so that your left leg stays on the ice a fraction longer than it would if you were crossing it.

Sorry, I am not much help.

[doubletoe]

Doubletoe - give it a try. I let the back trailing foot linger a bit and then snap it in. Makes for a nice element if you also exit in a bauer the other way.


Hmm, I don't do the Bauer the other way, but I like exiting in a back pivot (when I have enough control, LOL). I would think the backspin entrance from the Bauer-inside 3 would be the same as the loop takeoff I always do, so I'll try it! Thanks! :)

[tidesong]

Hmmm for me back spin it just helps when I maintain the tension in my free leg... I can do both the 3turn and the pivot entry... for pivot. Ok... the 3-turn entry has a inside edge bend then you go UP and then it goes down onto the outside edge to spin. The pivot timing goes where the inside edge of the 3-turn entry is and the action when the 3turn comes down from the slightly forward weight to turn to the outside edge is where the pivot comes down from the pivot into the outside edge to spin... everything else seems basically the same.

Hope that helps... and hope i'm not remembering it wrongly because I'm not on the ice right now to make sure my memory isnt dead...

[JessicaLynn]

Hello,

I am learning the backspin and have been playing with it for some time now (about a year but not seriously). Well now it's serious-time because I am starting to work on axel-prep and I need a strong backspin! All of the other times I played with the backspin, I spun, but it was the wierd loop-looking tracings (and no hook).

What my coach brought to my attention is that when I do the 3-turn, I let the heel get ahead of my toe and instead of hooking, I am back on the heel and I just make a bunch of loop tracings on the ice. (Sometimes after I make the first loop I try to hook after and it doesn't work). I have been trying really hard to correct this but with no luck! When I manage to actually press to the toe for the hook, I go too far forward and my toe pick grinds into the ice. I am getting really frustrated with it! I am trying to keep my hip up, frame strong, and knee on top as well.

Any advice would be great! Thanks!

[Isk8NYC]

JessicaLynn: I've added your post to our weekly advice thread. This week's major topic is, coincidentally, backspins. (Also some tidbits about wrapping on flips and loops.)

[Debbie S]

Have you tried doing the backspin from a back pivot instead? You anchor the toepick of your spinning foot into the ice and use your other foot to swing you around into the spin, and then you get off your toe and start spinning on your foot. This generally keeps you in one place and gets you spinning in one spot - that's the technique you would use for change-foot spins, and when you do a waltz-backspin, you won't be spinning out of a 3-turn. I, too, find the 3-turn entry hard to control.

Try that and also focus on pressing on the ball of the foot while you spin - esp the outer part, since the goal is to spin on a BO edge.

Good luck with the axel!

[Debbie S]

The pivot timing goes where the inside edge of the 3-turn entry is and the action when the 3turn comes down from the slightly forward weight to turn to the outside edge is where the pivot comes down from the pivot into the outside edge to spinMaybe I'm just being really dense, but this sentence makes absolutely no sense to me. :??

[doubletoe]

Maybe I'm just being really dense, but this sentence makes absolutely no sense to me. :??


Me neither. It made my head hurt. :??

[doubletoe]

Have you tried doing the backspin from a back pivot instead? You anchor the toepick of your spinning foot into the ice and use your other foot to swing you around into the spin, and then you get off your toe and start spinning on your foot.

Oh, no wonder. I thought everyone meant a RBO pivot where the left toe is in the ice! So it's a LBI pivot with the right toe in the ice?

[Isk8NYC]

Backspin pivot start for CCW Skaters:

Right toepick in ice, LBI edge comes around on the ice (LBI) from front to side of skating foot to start the pivot. Think of it as planting your right toepick in the ice and doing half of a backwards swizzle with your left foot.

Left foot starts in front, then goes around and up. (Just do a pickup spin-touch your right ankle.) Cross-check the arms for the first first stage, then open the left arm slightly to the side to hook the spin, then bring both arms to an open spin position.

The tough part is being able to bring that left free foot back in front on this start - you have to time it perfectly. As I mentioned before, actually HAVING a strong pivot to work from in the first place is a great advantage.

[Skate@Delaware]

For the backspin pivot method....where is your weight? Should it be evenly between both legs or mostly on the right leg? I'm really good at messing this up and I can't remember what my coach said (she says so much I'm on information overload).

She just taught me this method. This is method #4......don't know what we will do if this doesn't work...

[Morgail]

When I manage to actually press to the toe for the hook, I go too far forward and my toe pick grinds into the ice.

I do this exact same thing. I can get about one revolution and then come up too far on my pick and end up grinding to a stop (or losing my balance or falling over to the inside edge).

The ideas everyone has posted sound great - I'm going to try them on Saturday when I skate again:)

[Debbie S]

For the backspin pivot method....where is your weight? Should it be evenly between both legs or mostly on the right leg? The weight tends to be on the right (CCW). You will need a bit of weight on your left foot to do the pivot around, but then as you lift the left foot up and come off your toepick to start spinning on your foot, your weight will be entirely on the right (left for CW spinners).

[crayonskater]

I just learned how to do a cross-stroke (the optional step on the Canasta Tango pattern), and I'm having some difficulties understanding how I'm supposed to cross over my LFO onto a RFO without, well, dying. I keep twisting the under-push onto the toepick.

More knee bend?

Sorry this isn't about spinning. I have a very good one-foot spin as long as I only start from the pivot. Try to do a 'big-kid' start and I'm all over the place.

[mikawendy]

Crayonskater--
When you go to do the cross stroke, make sure you're not trying to keep your hips square to the front. That would keep you from getting over onto the RFO edge. Think of your hips almost steering you onto that edge.

[SkatingOnClouds]

Surely you have to be able to do the backspin from a pivot for change foot spins? You have to have that sort of push off from the left foot (for CCW) onto the right. And I can't do it to save myself. Tips on how best to do this are welcome.

My backspins are a series of teeny 3 turns rather than a spin. Once or twice I have got some circles happening, but rarely. Mine are more of a twizzle (see Casey, I remembered; twizzle not swizzle).

The entry seems fine, coach seems happy with it. As soon as I do the 3 turn and hook onto the toe-pick my weight goes back onto my heel even though I am pushing down really hard on my right little toe. I've tried keeping my weight forward, keeping my weight back, keeping it in the middle.

[Isk8NYC]

For the backspin pivot method....where is your weight? Should it be evenly between both legs or mostly on the right leg?Whenever you are doing a pivot, your weight is (mostly) on the pivot foot -- the one with the toepick in the ice. That's why I teach 1 foot spins and lunges before pivots, especially for ISI skaters. (I get in trouble doing this in groups - "Work on the elements, not the drills!") Otherwise, the skaters perform pivots as awkward two-foot spins. For example, a good forward inside pivot starts like a spin, but your weight is on the pivot foot and the free leg goes around BEHIND the other foot, like a good lunge position.

Surely you have to be able to do the backspin from a pivot for change foot spins? You have to have that sort of push off from the left foot (for CCW) onto the right. You're correct: change foot spins DO use a pivot. Let's say you're doing a pique (upright) spin on your left foot in a CCW position. You OPEN UP the free arm and foot, put your right toepick into the ice next to your spinning foot, cross-check BOTH your arms to the right, then transfer your weight to the right foot. Your left foot will perform a backward half-swizzle as your arms start the new spin by coming across your body. The left leg/foot comes to the front of your right foot as you start the spin and close your hips. Bend your knee to center it and hold onto that back spin!

If you're looping on the back spin, you're rocking to the toe or heel. You have to feel like you're pressing down with the pinkie toe to find the spin spot.

It could also be your shoulders causing you to bobble. The free leg SHOULDER should be pressed back to continue the spin. Many beginners hold that shoulder in front, twisting against the spin direction and losing momentum. Again, it feels like your back is up against a big column or pole when you're doing a backspin on the outside edge.

I find the pivot is the easiest way to practice an inside edge back spin, in preparation for a change-edge spin variation. Practice both separately, then all you have to learn is the edge change!

Sorry, Crayonskater, I am the WORST footwork teacher in the world. Anyone else good at cross-strokes?


CASEY - START YOUR NEW ADVICE THREAD for Nov 10 - xx.
You might want to synch up the end date with the practice report thread. (Just a suggestion)

[crayonskater]

Crayonskater--
When you go to do the cross stroke, make sure you're not trying to keep your hips square to the front. That would keep you from getting over onto the RFO edge. Think of your hips almost steering you onto that edge.


So which way do my hips rotate then? Like a normal crossover?

[mikawendy]

So which way do my hips rotate then? Like a normal crossover?

Your hips should rotate toward the direction of the FO edge that your skating onto.

[luna_skater]

Oh, no wonder. I thought everyone meant a RBO pivot where the left toe is in the ice! So it's a LBI pivot with the right toe in the ice?

Yes. Right pick is in the ice, and you push with a LBI edge.