Toe-Assisted Jump Technique

[SkatingOnClouds]

Following on from my hijacking of the toe-loop technique thread...
I am getting thoroughly confused about jump impetus in toe-assisted jumps.

I learned to skate over 20 years ago, my coach must've learned probably at least 30 years before that, so what she learned and passed on must've been from the 1950's or 60's . My current coach is very up to date with technique and really studies technique. I am sure she could explain all this stuff to me, but because I only get one 15 minute lesson a week (she is fully booked, I'd be happier with a 1/2 hour lesson), I don't get the chance to ask her about some of the finer details of technique that I need to understand and apply to my skating.

toe-loops. Should I be trying to;
a) stay on the skating blade and the picking foot until the feet nearly come together before jumping? Or;
b)pulling myself into the air with my picking toe?

Where does the actual jump come from, what gives the height?
If I am to pick behind rather than to the side, how do I avoid opening the left hip?

Flips: Should I be trying to;
a) reach right back with a straight leg and pull back until my feet nearly touch before jumping, or;
b) use a slightly bent leg to pick, linger on the pick and jump off the pick?

Again, what actually gives the impetus, what gives the height? Should I be springing from the skating foot just before it meets the picking foot?

The more I think about these jumps and their relation to their edge jump relatives - the loop and the salchow, the more confused I get about what I am trying to achieve.

[doubletoe]

I can say that for the flip, you definitely want to extend your free leg straight out behind you and only bend it once the pick is in the ice and you are pulling back. You pull back and up, so that your feet are coming together as you leave the ice.

On the toeloop, it's kind of tricky because you want to pull back and up for sort of a 2-footed takeoff as well, but if you allow yourself to stay on the toe too long to pull back, the picking foot starts turning and then you find that you're doing a "toe waltz" (or in the case of the double toe, a "toe axel"). I know this from recent experience, unfortunately. So now we're focusing on reaching back immediately on the exit of the 3-turn, but not reaching quite so far back and not spending much time pulling back on the toe. The straighter I keep my back (i.e., not leaning forward), the easier it is to pick and pull myself back and up really quickly. The mazurka takeoff was the exercise we did for that timing and it seems to have helped.

[cecealias]

toe-loops Answer:.
a) stay on the skating blade and the picking foot until the feet nearly come together before jumping

Where does the actual jump come from, what gives the height?
Skating leg Knee bend. Core tension from Checking rotation from the 3 turn. Keep the 3 turn flat.

Flips: Answer:
a) reach right back with a straight leg and pull back until my feet nearly touch before jumping

Again, what actually gives the impetus, what gives the height?
answer a) also knee bend, tension in the core from keeping the left arm in front.

Should I be springing from the skating foot just before it meets the picking foot? Yes.

[mikawendy]

Another interesting thing about picking technique--
I was working on my lutz the other night and was having more trouble than usual with it. I felt like my pick was stuck in the ice and like I was kind of spinning around the pick rather than really getting up in the air. After much chagrin, I figured out my problem was that I was letting the nonpicking shoulder open up into the jump rather than keeping it strongly checked. It was the strangest thing....

[SkatingOnClouds]

Thanks, this does help clarify things for me. I intend to try these things when I skate this evening, see if I can get some improvements happening.

What has been said here about the straight leg the flip is what I thought. It's just that some of the skaters here bend their picking leg before picking, it looks like they put all their weight on the picking foot, then sort of jump off the pick, even rotating off the pick.

I think I tend to so the opposite, rushing from the picking straight into the jump without waiting til my feet are almost together before jumping, especially on the flip.
When I spring from the skating foot for a flip, should the toe-pick or the flat of the blade be the last thing to leave the ice?

Can anyone recommend exercises for the take-offs for these two jumps which will help me get the feeling of the timing?

[mikawendy]

Can anyone recommend exercises for the take-offs for these two jumps which will help me get the feeling of the timing?

Someone once posted something about the timing of the flip entrance being like "I like 7-up." I can't remember which parts go with which words, but it was for the toe push-FO3-pick entry to the jump.

[cecealias]

Can anyone recommend exercises for the take-offs for these two jumps which will help me get the feeling of the timing?


Yes I can - please PM me.

[Team Arthritis]

Someone once posted something about the timing of the flip entrance being like "I like 7-up." I can't remember which parts go with which words, but it was for the toe push-FO3-pick entry to the jump.
:lol: My wife and I shout that in unison when we try to do side by side Salchows. Gets a grin even from the alpha bee
Lyle

[doubletoe]

I think I tend to so the opposite, rushing from the picking straight into the jump without waiting til my feet are almost together before jumping, especially on the flip.
When I spring from the skating foot for a flip, should the toe-pick or the flat of the blade be the last thing to leave the ice?

It sounds like you might be letting your upper body get pitched forward when you pick. In order to properly pull yourself back and up on any toe jump takeoff, you need to have your back rigid and arched so that you feel like you are being pulled backward by your bra strap (for lack of a better analogy, LOL!). The best way to make sure you're doing this is to squeeze your shoulder blades together as you reach back, pick and pull up on takeoff.

[doubletoe]

Oops, forgot to answer the second half of that. If you are properly pulling back instead of pitching forward, it should feel like the flat of the skating blade is what leaves the ice, not the pick. If you let your skating foot pick touch the ice, it will slow down your takeoff edge and make it hard to bring your feet together and spring up.

[SkatingOnClouds]

I tried the tips I'd got up to yesterday when I skated last night.

First I worked on the toe-loop. I actually did get one that had the "floating across" feeling that PreciseIce described in the other thread. I liked it. I don't know that I got more height, but it definitely felt better.

Flip wasn't so successful. DoubleToe, I think you are right, my coach has told me I pitch forward as I reach back, although this is vastly improved lately. Last night I still wasn't getting the right feeling of pulling back til my feet were nearly together, or taking off from the skating foot.
I think it is still pick & panic.

I like 7 up? Well, I usually do flips from mohawks as I have yet to flatten out my 3 turn enough to work well. I am counting 1- left inside edge, 2-right inside edge, 3, mohawk, 4-reach back and pick. I lack the timing for 5 which has to be take off. Maybe it has to be 4.5, and the landing 5. This is the critical part of the timing that hasn't gelled yet.

I have another session tomorrow before work, will try the rest of the hints and let y'all know how it goes.

[doubletoe]

I used to have trouble getting a straight enough takeoff edge on the flip from a 3-turn, but then my coach taught me how to angle the 3-turn entry differently, and now it works great! Assuming you pick and land with your right foot, stand on a line on the ice so that you are at 6:00 and are facing 12:00. Now push off onto a LFO 3-turn entry, but push off onto a slight diagonal line, towards 2:00 (i.e., push out a little to the RIGHT of the line). Do a nice long edge, then the 3-turn. Try to keep the 3-turn exit nice and straight, by reaching back with your picking foot and pulling your right arm & shoulder back. Stay low on your knee, squeeze your shoulder blades together, pick and pull back and up. Don't worry about the rotation yet, just get comfortable picking and pulling back and up. When you're comfortable with that, do the rotation part. The important thing is to look at your takeoff marks and make sure the 3-turn was on the same side of the line you pushed off onto, and that you didn't cross over the line when you picked. Doing this will give you a nice steady takeoff edge and keep you from over-rotating and falling into your circle on takeoff. :)

[SkatingOnClouds]

Thanks Doubletoe.
Weird thing is that I can good 1/2 flips from the mohawk but find the timing of the full flip easier from the 3 turn.
I am sure it is a timing thing, caused by the fact I know I have to make the pick & jump quickly before my swinging 3turn prevents me jumping at all. Yet because the edge is swinging, it seems to cause me to pick way to the right, which causes me to lean to the right, and well, of course the jump isn't going to work with that set up.

With the mohawk entry it maybe that I just have to find the right timing because I always did it from mohawks 20+ years ago. You know how you can end up procrastinating too long before a lutz when you do it from the long edge entry?

You know what, I just realised that 20+ years ago I used to bring the picking toe down with a lot more oomph. Sometimes I used to leave quite large holes in the ice. :oops: Since my return to skating I haven't done that at all. At my age and size (I am very overweight) I would be embarrassed to leave a huge hole, so I have made sure I reach back to put my toe in.

What do you reckon, should I try bringing the toe down more like I used to, see if that helps regain my timing, and then try to reduce the rink damage by learning to pick more delicately?

Hey Cecialias, you need to clear your private message box. THanks for the tips, couldn't reply because your box is full.

[mdvask8r]

I used to have trouble getting a straight enough takeoff edge on the flip from a 3-turn, but then my coach taught me how to angle the 3-turn entry differently, and now it works great! Assuming you pick and land with your right foot, stand on a line on the ice so that you are at 6:00 and are facing 12:00. Now push off onto a LFO 3-turn entry, but push off onto a slight diagonal line, towards 2:00 (i.e., push out a little to the RIGHT of the line). Do a nice long edge, then the 3-turn. Try to keep the 3-turn exit nice and straight, by reaching back with your picking foot and pulling your right arm & shoulder back. Stay low on your knee, squeeze your shoulder blades together, pick and pull back and up. Don't worry about the rotation yet, just get comfortable picking and pulling back and up. When you're comfortable with that, do the rotation part. The important thing is to look at your takeoff marks and make sure the 3-turn was on the same side of the line you pushed off onto, and that you didn't cross over the line when you picked. Doing this will give you a nice steady takeoff edge and keep you from over-rotating and falling into your circle on takeoff. :)
YES! My coach teaches this same set up for the flip. Imagine yourself in a narrow hallway. Don't touch the side walls! If you still have trouble keeping the 3-turn flat try thinking of a shallow rocker instead of a 3-turn. Did wonders for my take-off!

[SkatingOnClouds]

Thought I'd let you all know how my flips went today.

I worked on them only from mohawks today, and decided to relax and just let the picking happen without worrying whether I made holes. Felt a heck of a lot better and ,surprise, surprise, no big holes.

Another skater did repeat what I was told yesterday though, that my body is leaning to the right before picking. I feel sure it isn't that the edge is too swingy, my mohawks are nice and flat, with good right arm position and that I can pick directly behind from them.

Now I just have to figure out why I am leaning to the right, whether it has just become yet another bad habit to break, or whether there is another fault causing it. I feel so close to getting this sucker right now.