Unusual toe-loop technique?

[emyh]

Hi,

I've recently started skating again after about a three-to-four-year hiatus. I've skated on public sessions occasionally on and off, and was working on my axel when I left.

I recently decided to start skating again, and was in the process of trying out three coaches. One of the coaches I tried out had an interesting approach to the toe-loop, one that I have never heard of before. When on the RBO edge and picking, to let the legs "cross" a little bit before going into the jump. She said it would be better technique for when I go into my doubles and it was the new standard for what a toe-loop is.

However one of the better reputed coaches I tried out with, I tried my old approach, and he had absolutely no comments on.

Is this approach to the toe-loop common? A picky coach is good, but I don't want a picky coach who will teach me bad habits.

Thanks!

[froggy]

no that is not unusual at all, i learned the toe loop initially as more of a toe waltz, now I am "relearning" it with the cross over in front which is much more difficult (it helps to place more of your weight over your picking foot), but its true to learn a double toe it's impt to be able to execute the toe loop with the cross in front. if you watch a good skater jump on a video pause it during the take off of a toe loop and you'll see them do it this way ie: matt savoie..meissner etc.. good luck!

[beachbabe]

I got peroneal tendonitis doing that on my double toe. I could tell it was somehow associated with whether iw as working on my toe loop that day until finally my tendon got so inflamed that I was off ice for 2 months straight.

I showed my doc a tape of my toeloop and she could see immediately that i was putting pressure on the tendon crossing it behind so much and my coach had never said anything about it. I mentioned it to her after i got back on the ice and she said someone else had had a problem like that on their triple toe but that it was not very common and most people do fine with that technique.

I have since stopped crossing the picking leg behind as much and it certainly made the jump more difficult but my tendonitis mysteriously dissapeared and hasnt come back since.

[doubletoe]

Can you explain what you mean? Which foot is crossing in front or behind which foot, and at what point in the jump takeoff?

From what I gather, there are two different ways of teaching a toeloop: One is to get the weight onto the toe and jump off the toe (although you have to do it quickly or you risk turning on the toe and doing a toe waltz/toe axel). The other is drawing back and doing sort of a 2-footed loop takeoff. Does either of those sound like what you are learning from this new coach?

[Kuddles]

If you view any beautifully executed Toe-loop jump, double, triple, quad,
in slow motion you will see the free foot ( one your not picking with duh ), will "by-pass" or as you said it cross over the picking foot. It will then procede to follow through and snap into the back spin allowing for the nice rotation everybody wants :P ,

Personally I dont know any other way of performing a Toe jump. Since without the "by-passing" movement you cant truely execute the toe jump.

-Kuddles

[Chico]

I did a toe/waltz for a long time without knowing better. My current coach has been on a mission to get me to do a true toe/loop since I've had her. A toe/waltz was a no brainer but a true toe/loop is another matter. Some days are good and others are just hell. I have been learning the above mentioned. I guess if you ever want a double you need a good toe/loop and not a toe/waltz. Nasty jump ain't it?

Chico

[PreciseIce]

This is an issue all my students are facing when they change over. I make them do the "proper" Toe-Loop vs their used to Toe-waltz. Do take note that if you get the technique right, they will "float" into the air then just jumping. Most of them when gotten the bying-pass action correct with the rest or the flow, have no fear trying a doubles after ... It is highly recommended!!!!

Still, this is individual skills being taught ... I can only speak for myself & my students who seems to love being able to do that & tell the diff between the Toe-waltz & toe-loop.

And yes, it also give you a bad ankle if you don't toe or learn the skill proper for a quite some time ... (personal experience) ...there's always reasons why the jumps are done some ways just to keep it safe,yet able to give the strongest potential!

[doubletoe]

If you view any beautifully executed Toe-loop jump, double, triple, quad,
in slow motion you will see the free foot ( one your not picking with duh ), will "by-pass" or as you said it cross over the picking foot. It will then procede to follow through and snap into the back spin allowing for the nice rotation everybody wants :P ,

Personally I dont know any other way of performing a Toe jump. Since without the "by-passing" movement you cant truely execute the toe jump.

-Kuddles

Actually, there's no "by-pass" on the flip or lutz, even though they are toe jumps, but I know what you mean about the toeloop (and your description is how I learned it, too). Still, you could theoretically perform a toeloop without the "by-pass". A friend of mine who was taught the double toe from the toe-assisted loop type entrance told me she pulls all the way back so her feet come together, then turns the right hip in on takeoff so that the left leg ends up in front of the right in the air (just like a backwpin from a RBO pivot entrance, where the left toe is in the ice).

[doubletoe]

Oops, I meant "backspin" not "backwspin" LOL!

[SkatingOnClouds]

It's really interesting to read about the 2 different approaches to the toe-loop. My coach once said something about fixing my toe-loop and my reply was "What's wrong with my toe-loop?"

I learned the old way I guess, where the emphasis was on picking almost out to the side. Not rotating on the pick, sort of jumping sideways across it.
(We were always taught to first jump, and then the jump goes out across the take off edge line, not to turn and then jump, on any jump. )
Current coach wants me to pick behind, almost crossed behind. I have tried, but I don't seem to get any height that way.

What's the secret to getting height from the crossed picking placement?

[doubletoe]

What's the secret to getting height from the crossed picking placement?

I don't know because my coach tells me to try to pick a little to the outside, and jumps down my throat if I cross behind my skating foot to pick! He has successfully taught the quad toe, so I have decided to trust him on this. ;) Interestingly, last week we practiced mazurkas to give me the correct timing and technique for my double toe takeoff, and the mazurka takeoff sounds suspiciously like the toeloop takeoff you originally learned! So maybe there is nothing wrong with yours. . . ?

[techskater]

What's the secret to getting height from the crossed picking placement?

getting a good knee bend in the 3-turning (landing) knee, a good reach back on with the picking side, and getting all the weight onto the picking foot when it goes into the ice.

Our coach has an interesting thing about Axels, 2 sals, and 2toes:
Axel has 1 weight transfer (from the take off to the landing side)
2sal has 2 weight transfers (onto the take off side and then to the landing side)
2toe has 3 weight transfers (onto the turning side, onto the take off (picking) side, and then to the landing side)

[SkatingOnClouds]

I don't know because my coach tells me to try to pick a little to the outside, and jumps down my throat if I cross behind my skating foot to pick! He has successfully taught the quad toe, so I have decided to trust him on this. ;) Interestingly, last week we practiced mazurkas to give me the correct timing and technique for my double toe takeoff, and the mazurka takeoff sounds suspiciously like the toeloop takeoff you originally learned! So maybe there is nothing wrong with yours. . . ?

I've been thinking about this. Maybe what my coach means is that I am not getting that crossing or "by-passing" before I jump. Maybe I need to linger longer on the pick to allow that to happen, and to make the take off more like a two footed loop.

I realised have hi-jacked yet another thread. I will start another thread with my questions about toe-assisted jumps.

[Kuddles]

Actually, there's no "by-pass" on the flip or lutz, even though they are toe jumps, but I know what you mean about the toeloop (and your description is how I learned it, too). Still, you could theoretically perform a toeloop without the "by-pass". A friend of mine who was taught the double toe from the toe-assisted loop type entrance told me she pulls all the way back so her feet come together, then turns the right hip in on takeoff so that the left leg ends up in front of the right in the air (just like a backwpin from a RBO pivot entrance, where the left toe is in the ice).

Watch replays of any flip or lutz thats done correctly, and you will definetly see the "by-pass",

lutz - I recommed the Brian Biotano ( probably mispelled last name >.< )
flip - Elvis had amazing flips. But any triple flip jump will show the bypass.

They arent as visable as the toe jump, but they are there. ;)