Becoming unhinged ...

[saras]

Does anyone have Jackson Proflex boots?

After much deliberation I bit the bullet and ordered a pair. I picked them up yesterday - and yowza are they going to take some getting used to! I switched blades too - and those actually seem weirder right now (they have a different rocker than I'm used to, and he sharpened them to a different radius of hollow).

The boots I think I will like. I need to figure out how to control all the ankle mobility - the bending forwards is *great* . It's a little (ok, a lot) weird to also be able to point your toe and have your ankle bend "backwards". It's particularly odd on things like getting into a spin. Though there were a few times when I hit an edge and it just FLOWED - there was none of the usual "fight" to keep my knee bend against the pressure of the boot in front.

If anyone has any tips on getting used to these boots in particular please share! I'm tempted to spend some time in my other boots over the next few weeks - which will slow down the process a bit, but these boots arrived at a point where I was mid-stream in "working" on a number of things (getting a new program comfortable, and getting novice moves and a dance test-ready) and I'm not quite willing to just stop working on that stuff for a few weeks. There is NO way I could do a program run through right now....I'll give them a few days and see how it's going this weekend though.

This is distinctly NOT like breaking in a new pair of regular boots. I feel like there's this new technique stuff I have to figure out with respect to the ankle mobility. Once I figure it out - it'll be fine - but right now - it feels like a totally different animal!

Sara

[phoenix]

Sara--

I don't have the boots but am considering them for my next pair in a year or so. Please keep us posted on your adjustment......I do only dance & moves, so I'm particularly interested in those parts.

Thanks--and good luck!

[mikawendy]

Here are some previous threads on the topic of hinged boots. (Most recent threads first--those may be more relevant to the info you're looking for.) As I searched the forum for threads about hinged boots, it was interesting to see the search results and to see how the discussions of the boots unfolded over time from when the boots were in an experimental phase to when they started being retailed.

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=20560&highlight=hinged

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=19966&highlight=hinged

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=19032&highlight=hinged

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=17271&highlight=hinged

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=16302&highlight=hinged

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=14238&highlight=hinged

[saras]

I had seen some of those before (and participated in some even ROFL!) but I had missed some of the detail.

Phoenix - my dance coach has them, and they're going to be great for that. I hit a few edges today that were just a great solid feeling - different than in regular boots. Even for FS - I tried a few waltz jumps doing and LOVED the feeling of the landings. I tried a few scratch spins too - those were flipping bizarre - apparently I'm used to pressing against the ankle of the boot for ankle stability getting into those, and my ankle "mobility" was going all over the place. Once I figure out how to control that...spins will be a lot easier.

Although I'm also getting used to an 8-foot rather than a 7-foot rocker, so who knows what the big culprit is in the spin dept.

--Sara

[ice_godess]

Here's a few hints to stay comfortable in your proflex boots. Wear gel socks - those stretchy tube things that go over the ankle. The proflex wires and tongue can rub where they join the boot cuff, resulting in nasty pressure on the nerves running down the top of the foot. Make sure the knob is firmly locked - as it can unlock at the most inconvenient time, or in some cases refuse to unlock when you want it to. Also - be careful with the tongue as it can rip right across the foam where the airplane wire threads into the bottom plastic thing on the tongue. Then the entire cuff and tongue has to be replaced. Another thing - wear a donut sponge over your ankle bones if you have skinny ankles to prevent pressure problems there as well.

Love the skates and the way they move but - trust me - lots of physiotherapy bills and painful skating could have been avoided for some skaters if they had only known about the different pressure points. (and these were skaters coming out of top of the line Harlicks and Riedells).

[saras]

Here's a few hints to stay comfortable in your proflex boots. Wear gel socks - those stretchy tube things that go over the ankle. The proflex wires and tongue can rub where they join the boot cuff, resulting in nasty pressure on the nerves running down the top of the foot. Make sure the knob is firmly locked - as it can unlock at the most inconvenient time, or in some cases refuse to unlock when you want it to. Also - be careful with the tongue as it can rip right across the foam where the airplane wire threads into the bottom plastic thing on the tongue. Then the entire cuff and tongue has to be replaced. Another thing - wear a donut sponge over your ankle bones if you have skinny ankles to prevent pressure problems there as well.

Love the skates and the way they move but - trust me - lots of physiotherapy bills and painful skating could have been avoided for some skaters if they had only known about the different pressure points. (and these were skaters coming out of top of the line Harlicks and Riedells).

Do you mean lace-bite gel sleeves? Or socks that go over the foot and the ankle? I assume you mean the lace-bit sleeves - ankle only.

I have one pressure point - not from the wires but I think from a corner at the top of the boot (not the ankle, the foot part) - I'll put a gel pad there too.

Ack re the tongue - I'll watch for that! Yet another reason to hold on to my old pair of boots LOL - as a backup.

Do you have any tips on getting used to the ankle mobility?? Spins in particular felt like a very strange animal today.

Thanks for your input!

-_Sara

[Team Arthritis]

Hi, I've been using the proflex boots and matrix? blades for about 6 months now. Basicly I love them. Funny but the absolutely most convenient feature on them is the little twist to tighten upper. Its so great to have the uppers a little loose to walk around the rink, give the knob a twist to warm up, give it another twist as the tongue loosens up a bit, loosen a bit to work footwork, crank them really tight for terrifying jumps. (don't tell my coach) Be careful though, its easy to over tighten these. I've never had the knob come loose or refuse to lock.

The only thing I disliked intensely is that the insert has NO arch support! So go buy one and trim it and replace the one that comes in the boot.

Skating is different - moves and XO's and plain old knee bend are much easier. But hit a jump and Whoa, landing position is no longer resting your shin on the front of the boot, you have to hold yourself up. Toe jumps and toe work is easier, Sals and loops are different. Apparently I had some bad habits that include leaning on the side of my boot during these jumps - coach says now I have to do it right, well things are coming back. Scratch spin is better but the blade radius is smaller (= more rocker) and you have to do your backspin higher up on the blade, i.e. point your foot more which I find difficult (nerve damage in R leg, sigh).

The first set of blades came glued in place with Locktight - BAD idea - we stripped the screws trying to undo them. I think that the reason locktight was used is that the blades click after 6 months of use when walking on them. THis is not because the screws are loose but because the screws are made of aluminum and the shank gets a bit compressed by jumps. THe movement is miniscule and I sure can't feel it skating, so I never use the locktight - just check the screws every 2 weeks.

I bought a spare set of runners (only $115!!) so I can ALWAYS have sharp blades - sweet. The runners sharpen cold, i.e. they don't spark at all so the sharpener must go very slow or you will get chatter when they push harder trying to get some sparks LOL.

The fit was great for me after heat moulding. The only numbness is my R heel after 2 hrs - I guess that the heel doesn't respond to heating. I hope that you find this useful.
Lyle

[Skate@Delaware]

Thanks for the info, Lyle. My husband is getting these (we are waiting for them to come in) but not the matrix blade. He has issues with not being able to point his foot enough so we thought these would help him out.

[saras]

The first set of blades came glued in place with Locktight - BAD idea - we stripped the screws trying to undo them. I think that the reason locktight was used is that the blades click after 6 months of use when walking on them. THis is not because the screws are loose but because the screws are made of aluminum and the shank gets a bit compressed by jumps. THe movement is miniscule and I sure can't feel it skating, so I never use the locktight - just check the screws every 2 weeks.

I bought a spare set of runners (only $115!!) so I can ALWAYS have sharp blades - sweet. The runners sharpen cold, i.e. they don't spark at all so the sharpener must go very slow or you will get chatter when they push harder trying to get some sparks LOL.
Lyle


Thanks for all the input Lyle - If I settle into these blades, the plan was to get a second pair of runners to and mail them back and forth to my sharpener - to save the long drive and (as you say) to always have a sharp pair!

I'll be careful with the locktight - I haven't had a reason yet to take out the runners, but I'll try them without when I do.

I had orthotic inserts made for these boots - those got adjusted tonight so they fit well and that'll solve any arch issue :)

Session two in them is tonight - wheeeeeeee

[Casey]

All I can think after reading all the details in this thread is...

Why on earth would anybody ever want such horrendous things?!?!?

They sound quite problematic, a pain to deal with, and ugly besides. Just a personal opinion, but I had to say it.

[Skate@Delaware]

All I can think after reading all the details in this thread is...

Why on earth would anybody ever want such horrendous things?!?!?

They sound quite problematic, a pain to deal with, and ugly besides. Just a personal opinion, but I had to say it.
In a way, you sound like the guy that comes to my rink (he used to skate in the 40's and 50's was some champion back then). He complains about how awful our boots are and how can we do anything in them because they are sooooooo stiff! He says no wonder the girls have foot problems-the boots don't let them move their foot and develop the muscles properly. :roll:

Some people like the new pro-flex skates, others don't.

[Casey]

Some people like the new pro-flex skates, others don't.
Well sure, and I'm just being opinionated to an extent, but what I see above is "I love them, but here's 10 different big problems and workarounds". I just don't see how you can say you love something and recommend it if it's got so many issues.

[Isk8NYC]

Don't we all have a love/hate relationship with our skates, regardless of what kind they are?

I love my Klingbeil's, but the extra tongue hook is annoying when I'm lacing up. The Gold Seals are wonderful, but I have to use a specific pro shop to sharpen them. My stock insoles now have to be replaced with orthotics because I've developed heel spurs, probably from the skates. (I still say it's the evil high heels I wore for years.)

I'm intrigued by the hinged skates, but they're not for me, either. Horrendous, no. Futuristic, yes. In any case, live and let live!

[saras]

Don't we all have a love/hate relationship with our skates, regardless of what kind they are?

I love my Klingbeil's, but the extra tongue hook is annoying when I'm lacing up. The Gold Seals are wonderful, but I have to use a specific pro shop to sharpen them. My stock insoles now have to be replaced with orthotics because I've developed heel spurs, probably from the skates. (I still say it's the evil high heels I wore for years.)

I'm intrigued by the hinged skates, but they're not for me, either. Horrendous, no. Futuristic, yes. In any case, live and let live!

If your heel spurs are caused by plantar fascitis (with the arch falling and stretching the ligament and causing the spur at an insertion point of the ligament) then orthotics will greatly reduce pain and will stop progression of the problem! I swear by them, and wear them religiously.

Day two on the articulated skates was tonight - and things went MUCH better. I like the boots. What is hard now is stuff where I formerly relied on resistance of the boot - but the contrast is that I had to work hard against that resistance at times too (like to bend my knee). Now, I don't have to work hard to get knee bend, which improves a bunch of stuff, but I have to learn to control ankle bend myself (rather than relying on the boot). I was able to jump most of my jumps today - not the axel (my biggest most consistent jump - I'm working on 2sals but haven't landed one yet). Novice moves and footwork and spins are still pretty iffy - but I was able to start playing with them by the end of the session. Not bad for 2.5 hours in the boots ;)

I'm not so sure about the blades though. They seemed "slower" and almost sluggish - although the ice was pretty crappy too, and it could well be that I'd do better with a 5/8 inch hollow. Blades are easy to swap out - but the boots I think I'll really like! Jump landings feel *wonderful*. While it took 4-5 tries before commiting to each jump the first time through it (from sal to toe to loop to flip to lutz), once I felt how it was different a few times and then commited to the jump, it went fine. Popping up into a loop after another jump was great - I typically take too long to pop up into a loop in combination, and that problem was not in evidence tonight - which I attribute to the knee/ankle bend. The knee bend is totally great. My quads got tired ROFL!

Sara

[saras]

Well sure, and I'm just being opinionated to an extent, but what I see above is "I love them, but here's 10 different big problems and workarounds". I just don't see how you can say you love something and recommend it if it's got so many issues.
Personally - the list of problems/workarounds were quite similar to what I do with regular (custom) boots. Gel sleeves for lace bite, double-knotting laces so they don't loosen, lace up in a particular way while breaking them in, etc. They're not on-ice functional problems, they're what you have to do to use these boots optimally.

Functionally, the boots are quite different and I can totally see the advantage of them. Beyond saving knees and hips (and hopefully jumping for many more years than I probably would in regular boots) - the mobility will add a whole new level of things I can do that I cannot currently do. Yes, I need to get my ankle stronger and more in "control" - which it hasn't had to do up til now. But once I figure that out and develop that skill - there are a host of things I'll be able to do. Edge control and manipulation being one of them - tonight it felt like in typical boots - it's all about planting your foot correctly and letting the boot do it's own thing for even something like lobes down a line. In these boots - yes, you have to have the technical accuracy and plant your foot correctly. But after that - I can let it be a regular lobe, or I can make it do all this other creative stuff - in a way that would not be possible without significant rest-of-the-body contortion in a regular boot. It's up to me and my ankle, not the boot.

The blades I'm not so sure about. I'm not loving them. I'll give 'em a chance (more than the 2.5 hours to date), but the jury's still out.

Who knows - I don't have much time in these boots yet. But I'm willing to try, b/c I see the potential for me and my own skating. If the above doesn't float your boat, everyone can make their own choices about what skates to wear.

[doubletoe]

When I read through this thread, I also saw at least as many positives as negatives about the pro-flex boots, and the negatives were either temporary negatives (like the fact that it takes some time to get used to the new range of motion) or the same negatives anyone might have with a brand new pair of conventional boots (not enough arch support, etc.). I love the idea of not having to stress your shins and knees trying to get enough knee bend, as well as having your feet actually look pointed instead of pointing as hard you I can and having it barely show. I agree that the hinges make the boots look a little bulky, but everyone will probably be so distracted by the beautiful toe point to notice, LOL. Maybe I'll look into these the next time I need new boots. . .

[doubletoe]

instead of pointing as hard you I can

Sometimes my typos scare me. That was supposed to be "instead of pointing as hard as you can" LOL!

[Team Arthritis]

I'm not so sure about the blades though. They seemed "slower" and almost sluggish - although the ice was pretty crappy too, and it could well be that I'd do better with a 5/8 inch hollow.
Sara

YESSSS! Re-read what I said about the sharpening, the rink pro put a huge amount of chatter in when he sharpened them. THis looks like very subtle alternating lighter and darker areas that run across the blade. When I took them to my regular sharpening guy he took that out by running them through very slowly. He also polishes them too - man is that nice, so slick that I can keep up with the big kids when they are first sharpened!
Lyle

[saras]

YESSSS! Re-read what I said about the sharpening, the rink pro put a huge amount of chatter in when he sharpened them. THis looks like very subtle alternating lighter and darker areas that run across the blade. When I took them to my regular sharpening guy he took that out by running them through very slowly. He also polishes them too - man is that nice, so slick that I can keep up with the big kids when they are first sharpened!
Lyle

Hmm. There's no chatter in this sharpening (though I've had what you describe before - on other blades). The ice was in better shape today and the blades weren't behaving so sluggishly. They're still "grabby" - but honestly, I think it's b/c the hollow is deeper than what I'm used to. I'll try and get them resharpened to 5/8" this weekend and see how that goes.

I'm settling in nicely to the boots. I LOVE jumping in them! My timing is a lot better - I'm quicker at getting into the in-air position in toe-jumps. I think it's b/c of not having to "fight" or work so hard to keep a knee bend - especially a "dynamic" knee bend - one that changes as you're getting into something. You just bend to where you want to go and that's it.

I got a few semi-ok spins today - although I haven't found the sweet spot yet.