About Rotating Jumps & Backspin position

[SkatingOnClouds]

Something from another thread got me thinking about what initiates the rotation in a jump. It isn't something I've had time to talk to my coach about much - one 15 minute lesson a week doesn't give much time for discussing the more technical stuff in detail.

If I'd ever thought about it at all, I suppose I thought that one should pull back with the left hip and shoulder (for a CCW jumper), but what I have read here indicates that pre-rotation for a jump such as flip, lutz, maybe even loop, comes from the right hip.

I can see that pulling back with the left shoulder can be a bad idea, as it might cause that shoulder to dip, and cause the left side of the body to open out. Coach has said about using the right arm/shoulder more to initiate revolution in loops in particular. (Opening out the left side of the body is one of my many faults.)

I guess what confuses me is if I am leading the action with the right hip, I would feel more like I am going to rotate around the left side of my body, rather than pulling back on the left side to make go around the right in order to get the backspin position.

So, is this right, is it bringing forward the right hip that initiates the rotation? Is this true of all jumps? And if so, how do you get the backspin position in the air?

Umm, and is this true too for backspins, that I should think about pushing forward the right hip rather than pulling the left hip back? Could explain a few things.... :roll:

[vesperholly]

I was taught to stay entirely checked, left side in front, throughout the jump. You should never pull your shoulders or hips one way or the other to initiate rotation. Pulling your left hip/shoulder back will only get you twisted in the air.

Rotation should come from a strong check, the take-off edge and pulling in tightly in the air.

[doubletoe]

Yes, it sounds like you are starting to figure it out. A correct rotational position requires that you (1) remain BACKWARD and (2) keep your hips and shoulders CLOSED.
Turning the right hip CCW actually closes the hip, but turning the left hip CCW will open up the hip and make you start turning forward, as well as pulling you off that axis over your right hip. And if you let your left shoulder opens out, that pretty much does the same thing. That's why you focus on turning the right hip in on backspins and jumps.
You can test all of this by doing it on backspins. You want to swing your right arm on the entrance to a backspin to close that right shoulder and get momentum for the spin, but you don't want to swing it so hard that it ends up crossed over your chest and throwing your weight over to your left side.

[saras]

Think about it this way too - you want to spin like a top over your landing leg...which (if you're CCW) is over the R hip keeping the R shoulder checked. If you rotate the R shoulder around, then the spin happens over your L side, not the right - since it makes the L shoulder the center of the pivot/spin point. If your R shoulder is checked - the L spins/orbits around the R (rather than the R spinning around the L). One side needs to be the center point - make it the landing side - once you're rotating, you won't be able to switch your center balance point to land on the other side.

Sara