Turn-Out Exercise

[Rusty Blades]

Howdy all!

I need a few good turn-out exercises, something that doesn't put rotational stress on the knees!

Turn-out is becoming a limiting factor in my skating and I need to change that.

(Can't believe I used to do a nice outside spread-eagle 30+ years ago and now can't get enough "open hips" to do a descent Mohawk - GRRR!)

Thanks!

[Raye]

It is the whole leg that turns out, from the hips not from the knees, which only sounds easy until you try it. I have a good excercise left over from all those years in ballet...

Lay on your back with your backside against a wall and your legs up the wall so that you make an L. Point your toes away from each other, using the whole leg and squeezing your 'cheeks' and slowly, with control - let your legs fall away from each other until you begin to feel the stretch and lay there for about a minute and a half. Bring them back up together and do it again, trying to open them just a little bit wider and hold again when you feel the stretch. Go through the excercise three or four times, once a day, and it won't be long until you have turnout that others will envy. :halo:

[Rusty Blades]

WAHOO! Thanks Raye, that's now on my schedule.

[dbny]

Dianne, it's wonderful to hear that you had such good turnout. I remember that even though I didn't have good turnout, I was able to do heel to heel FI Mohawks on roller skates, and that gives me hope. I'll be doing this exercise too.

Thanks, Raye!

Does anyone know the physical basis of turn-out and what the limiting factor is?

[doubletoe]

Two good ones:

1. Butterfly stretch: Sit on the floor with your back flush against the wall. Bring the soles of your feet together and pull your heels into your crotch. Rest your hands on your knees but don't push. Sit there for 5 minutes, watching TV or something, letting your legs relax until you feel a sensation of letting go in your hip flexors. Now gently push the knees down a little at a time, holding each position before pushing further. If you feel any pain, you are pushing too hard. Eventually, your tendons should relax enough for you to press your knees all the way down and hold with no discomfort. If you can do this, the outside spread eagle should be no problem.

2. Frog stretch: Lie face down on the floor (although I actually like to do this on my bed!). Bend your knees and bring the soles of your feet together. Lie in that position for 5 minutes, keeping the soles of your feet together. Push your pelvis and feet down towards the floor as much as you can. Don't worry, you don't need to be able to get your pelvis and feet on the floor in order to do an outside spread eagle.

[doubletoe]

Does anyone know the physical basis of turn-out and what the limiting factor is?

Yes, my physical therapist was just explaining it to me the other day. She says it's a matter of how your hips are constructed. If your hip joints are placed further to the inside of your hip/pelvic area, they won't rotate out as much. If the joints are placed more to the outside, they will open out more. It could be the other way around, but I think that's it.

[skate_star]

One good stretch for turnout is standing up and just simply lifting on leg off the ground as high as you can with a turnout. It's not the most effective stretch, but it does work. I have very closed hips, but noone will believe me. This is because I can do a very good outside spread eagle. It's weird because I do my spread eagle with my hips turned in........

[Joan]

I'm glad this thread got started, because I can't do a spread eagle and would love to get the turnout that would allow me to do a spread eagle!

[doubletoe]

Incidentally, a lot of times people have trouble getting into and holding an outside spread eagle due to technique on the ice, not due to lack of turnout. If you can turn your feet out 180 degrees in a spread eagle position on the floor, then it's just a technique issue on the ice.

BTW, Skate Star, how can you do a spread eagle with your hips closed? Does that mean you are achieving the turnout in your knees and ankles alone? If so, that is very dangerous for your knees so please be careful!

[skate_star]

BTW, Skate Star, how can you do a spread eagle with your hips closed? Does that mean you are achieving the turnout in your knees and ankles alone? If so, that is very dangerous for your knees so please be careful!

I'm not exactly sure how I'm able to do a spread eagle with closed hips. I learned how to do a spread eagle when I was little, and have always been able to do it ever since. Thanks for looking out for me, but I think I'll be fine. I can turn my hips out a little but not that much. My coach and my fitness trainer say that I'm fine to do spread eagles. I guess that it just works because I tarined my body how to do a spread eagle like that when I was 10.

[Award]

I always wanted to build some kind of 'safe' machine device for these stretches, where you sit on the floor with soles of feet touching and feet pulled right in so that you're doing a butterfly stretch. I was thinking of a device with controllable weights that come gently down from the top, and applies controlled downward force on both knees to help with the stretch. So at first, you have the machine set with only a little bit of weight only to give mild stretches. Then, over time, you can use higher loads to stretch more. Only problem is, to make the machine safe.....like, you wouldn't want the machine to accidently or unexpectedly go from light load to full load.

[Award]

I'm not exactly sure how I'm able to do a spread eagle with closed hips. I learned how to do a spread eagle when I was little, and have always been able to do it ever since.

It's possible that your ankles can pivot a fair bit, which kind of compensates for the shortage in opened-hipped-ness. A good test is to do a spread eagle, and look at the direction which your knees point relative to the direction of the feet. If knees point direction is lined up with feet, then that's the normal spread eagle. If knees aren't in same direction as feet, then there's probably ankle pivot or knee torqued.

[doubletoe]

It's possible that your ankles can pivot a fair bit, which kind of compensates for the shortage in opened-hipped-ness. A good test is to do a spread eagle, and look at the direction which your knees point relative to the direction of the feet. If knees point direction is lined up with feet, then that's the normal spread eagle. If knees aren't in same direction as feet, then there's probably ankle pivot or knee torqued.

Yes, that's an excellent test. I remember in an Iyengar yoga class I took, we were doing a turnout pose and the instructor came around and looked at everyone's knees to make sure they were facing the same direction as the feet.

[crayonskater]

All turnout starts from the hips, and I'm finding that ballet pliés are great for improving turnout, as are battement (a leg lift with a pointed, turned out, leg.)

[Skittl1321]

Incidentally, a lot of times people have trouble getting into and holding an outside spread eagle due to technique on the ice, not due to lack of turnout. If you can turn your feet out 180 degrees in a spread eagle position on the floor, then it's just a technique issue on the ice.

BTW, Skate Star, how can you do a spread eagle with your hips closed? Does that mean you are achieving the turnout in your knees and ankles alone? If so, that is very dangerous for your knees so please be careful!

I think your second paragraph contradicts your first, so I'm not sure if you typed exactly how you were thinking it (or if I am reading it wrong)
being able to turn your feet out to 180 degrees doesn't mean you should be able to do a spread eagle. I can turn my feet to 180 degrees, but to do it my turnout is coming from my knees and ankles solely.

If you can turn out to 180 degrees on the floor with most of the turnout coming from the hips, and a very small amount (a few degrees) in the ankles (shouldn't be any really in the knees- from my understanding) THEN it is an issue of technique.

[Award]

There was a time when my dream was to be able to do a spread eagle. Actually, the dream before that was to just learn to skate! Anyway, with lots of off-ice practice, I managed (over a period of say 1 year) to finally get comfortable with the spread eagle 'stance'. I didn't rush the practice, I was just very patient. Strangely, at first, it didn't translate to be able to doing the stance easily with skates on. Whether it was due to the extra height due to the blades, I'm not sure. I just couldn't easily make the skates point 180 degrees like I could easily do with my normal feet on the ground.

But eventually, with the help of side-boards and doing backwards 1-foot glides in well-balanced position, I eventually managed the straddle-bug spread eagle (ie bent knees). That was a great start. Then over more time, I managed the straight leg spread eagle. And then over even more time, the Ina, which seems to be equally as fun or as fascinating as the spread eagle. So I can say from hard work and from that experience, if you finally manage to be able to do a spread eagle stance with feet on the ground, you will surely be able to do it on the ice. It could take a short time or longer time, but eventually you'll get it.

[doubletoe]

I think your second paragraph contradicts your first, so I'm not sure if you typed exactly how you were thinking it (or if I am reading it wrong)
being able to turn your feet out to 180 degrees doesn't mean you should be able to do a spread eagle. I can turn my feet to 180 degrees, but to do it my turnout is coming from my knees and ankles solely.

If you can turn out to 180 degrees on the floor with most of the turnout coming from the hips, and a very small amount (a few degrees) in the ankles (shouldn't be any really in the knees- from my understanding) THEN it is an issue of technique.

No contradiction, just two separate topics: (1) the ability to achieve 180-degree turnout, and (2) the advisability of doing the spread eagle position if you are turning out from the knees and ankles instead of the hips.

Regardless of whether the turnout is coming from the hips, knees or feet, if you can do a 180-degree turnout on the floor, you should be able to eventually do it on the ice. However, I am NOT recommending that anyone do it if the turnout is coming from the knees and ankles instead of the hips. It will take a toll on your knees.

[Emberchyld]

If you can get your hands on the past two issues of Pointe magazine (a ballet magazine), they've dedicated their technique section to turnout exercises. They cover stretches, strengthening, and anatomy.

If I could scan them in, I would. Unfortunately, there is way too much content to type it all out....

[renatele]

If I could scan them in, I would. Unfortunately, there is way too much content to type it all out....

If you have a digital camera that takes pictures in macro mode, you can just take photo of the page(s) - I tried that this week in college, needed somebody elses notes ;). Worked very well.

[doubletoe]

If you can get your hands on the past two issues of Pointe magazine (a ballet magazine), they've dedicated their technique section to turnout exercises. They cover stretches, strengthening, and anatomy.

If I could scan them in, I would. Unfortunately, there is way too much content to type it all out....

I would imagine a significant part of it would be talking about correct form on plie's? I had never thought about it until someone on this thread mentioned it, but I can see now how it would help develop turnout without hurting the knees (because you're turning the feet and knees out bent, then straightening them). Ballet teachers also tell you to you tuck your seat under you and keep your back upright when doing them, which I can now see would help develop proper turnout as well. Who knew I was getting so much benefit from ballet all those years ago when I had almost forgotten I'd ever taken it! :roll:

[Award]

Proper turn out is definitely best of course, and nicest. Although I know that some people have a fair bit of ankle pivot too, so that they can do spread eagles etc with pivoted ankles within their comfortable range. So they do straight-leg with knee directions not 180 degrees, ankles rotated just the right amount to give 180 degrees skates.

[Emberchyld]

I would imagine a significant part of it would be talking about correct form on plie's?

That, and there are some fantastic exercises lying on the ground, forcing you to use your muscles. Lots of times dancers cheat unconsciously (or force incorrect turnout) by using the friction of the floor to get their feet to that hallowed 180 degrees. These articles include a lot of strengthening resistance exercises that will improve your "turnout" muscles in addition to working the flexibility within your own personal range.

One great exercise that I was taught (I don't know if the article covered it) was to lay on my back with my knees bent and a resistaband/theraband tied around my legs just above my knees and work on opening up the hips using that resistance. That way you don't just work on the stretch aspect but also on the muscular control of the turnout-- more muscle strength means that you'll actually be able to use the turnout to its max when you need it.

Renatale, thanks for the suggestion about taking a picture of the articles-- I'll try to see if my camera is good enough to handle that!

If it is, I'll try to post the article on here.

[CFP]

well, i can't do a spread eagle to save my life, yet can stand on one leg in 180 and do decent releves........ just doesn't transfer over to skates........ oh well!:lol:

but i love to stretch [ for other sports]... here's one i learned from a book about kinesiology.......

lying face down,,[ in the frog position ].....try to bring heels together, knees out to the side------- but don't actually touch heels, leave them about shoulder with apart, feet flexed.
now, don't let your stomach sag down,, keep a perfectly even back,, you should be able to balance a glass of water on it.
as for your hands.... reach your arms way up in front of you and put your weight only on you finger tips!!-- much harder than lying on the elbows or forearms!!:twisted:

if comfortable.. eeek yourself back....the stretch should become intense when you push back towards your feet.

ok,, hope i explained this well. i'm sure many of you have seen this stretch somewhere before,,, but a couple sublties make a huge difference!

[skatingdoris]

well, i can't do a spread eagle to save my life, yet can stand on one leg in 180 and do decent releves........ just doesn't transfer over to skates........ oh well!:lol:


This I sincerly believe is purely a matter of practice.

I was lucky enough to be blessed with naturally very open hips (I understand this is a matter of genes) and have always been able to get far more than 180 deg turn out, to the point of about 200deg were my feet are pointing backwards (not attactive!!) My coach calls me a freak :lol:

Yet it has taken a lot of work for me to get a outside spread eagle, they are getting bigger but can still be wobbely stuck out bum affairs and have certainly not come naturally.

Also if you can turn your feet out to 180 deg but it is coming from your knees this is NOT turnout, this is busting your knees up nice and good, I hate seeing people doing this it makes me cringe thinking what there doing to themselves.

[Award]

Also if you can turn your feet out to 180 deg but it is coming from your knees this is NOT turnout, this is busting your knees up nice and good, I hate seeing people doing this it makes me cringe thinking what there doing to themselves.

I think so. I really think that some people can hurt their knees that way. Although, there are people that have a fair bit of turn in their ankles. That is, can naturally rotate their ankle a fair bit, within comfort zone, and doesn't hurt their knees or ankles....even though it's not really a full turn-out spread eagle.

[doubletoe]

Yet it has taken a lot of work for me to get a outside spread eagle, they are getting bigger but can still be wobbely stuck out bum affairs and have certainly not come naturally.

I've found that the best way to hold a spread eagle and keep your body line straight (i.e., no protruding rear end) is to keep looking over your leading shoulder and pulling it back (see the silhouette at the top of this page, just to the left of "skatingforums.com"!).

[skate_star]

Ok, well I did that test that some of you suggested earlier in this thread, and my knees are not facing 100% out. I guess that means that the majority of the rotation comes from my ankles. I understand that's not good for my body, but I'm only 14 right now, and can't just stop doing spread eagles if I want to be a competitive skater. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should do?

[mikawendy]

Does anyone know the physical basis of turn-out and what the limiting factor is?

Yes, my physical therapist was just explaining it to me the other day. She says it's a matter of how your hips are constructed. If your hip joints are placed further to the inside of your hip/pelvic area, they won't rotate out as much. If the joints are placed more to the outside, they will open out more. It could be the other way around, but I think that's it.

Another anatomical factor in turnout is how shallow or deep your acetabulum (plural--acetabula???) are. That's the concave part of the hip socket. If the concave part is very shallow, then that allows the head of the femur to rotate more than if the concave part is very deep. (If the concave part is very deep, then the rotation of the head of the femur is stopped sooner, when the foot is less turned out.)

ITA with Emberchyld who recommended stretching and strengthening. One strengthening exercise that I like is to do slow, controlled demi plies in second position, with a very slow descent, rise to 1/2 way and hold, descend slowly, and rise slowly.

Also, after any activity that works on strengthening the external rotators at the hip joint, be sure to stretch the muscles used (glutes and piriformis etc.).

Edited to add: There's a ballet dancer who used to take class at one of the dance studios I went to who had the ***MOST*** gorgeous turnout. His hips were naturally so open that he could truly achieve 180 turnout (and perhaps a little more than that) without getting any of the turnout from the knees or ankles. He started dancing as an adult and then eventually turned pro and was able to dance full time.

[doubletoe]

One strengthening exercise that I like is to do slow, controlled demi plies in second position, with a very slow descent, rise to 1/2 way and hold, descend slowly, and rise slowly.

Also, after any activity that works on strengthening the external rotators at the hip joint, be sure to stretch the muscles used (glutes and piriformis etc.).


Thank you for adding that second part! I am now having to spend 10-15 minutes a day just stretching my glutes, piriformis and upper/outer hamstring on the left side as a result of overuse (from extending my free leg on jump landings and spirals, and probably a bit from spread eagles, too).

[mikawendy]

Thank you for adding that second part! I am now having to spend 10-15 minutes a day just stretching my glutes, piriformis and upper/outer hamstring on the left side as a result of overuse (from extending my free leg on jump landings and spirals, and probably a bit from spread eagles, too).

In addition to after exercises, I usually do piriformis stretches at the start and end of the day, and I do the child pose from yoga at the start and end of the day also, to keep my SI joints from flaring up.

[Emberchyld]

Just a little mistake-- it wasn't the past two issues of Pointe, but the past issue and the June/July issue.

Since I'm still having posting issues with that, I'll try to write some of it out:

They didn't even suggest the butterfly, but instead suggested this one stretch:

Lay on your back, knees bent, feet flat on the floor (like you're about to do some crunches)
Take one leg, cross it over the other (knee out, ankle-area of the crossing leg touching your other leg)
Keeping your back flat, grab around the base leg and pull it towards you-- you should feel a stretch in your glutes and your hip

Lather, rinse, and repeat.

They also suggested using those little finger balls/yoga balls/tennis balls as a massage tool to roll your glutes and hips and outer thighs (I think I covered all of it.. I don't have the magazine in front of me) over them (put ball on ground, "sit" or "lay" on top of ball, move back and forth and side to side to loosen tight muscles). The authors also credited tight opposing muscles for decreasing the maximum personal turnout-- so no matter how loose your hips are, if your glutes are tight, they might actually fight your turnout.

But remember that everyone has their own personal level of turnout, and 180 degrees is very rare. Even when you do have 180, lack of turnout muscles, tight muscles, etc, can hold you back.

I naturally have a nearly 180 degree turnout, but after an injury that kept me from stretching or doing any turnout related exercises for over 7 months, I'm working with maybe a 110 degree turnout, and fighting to get the old turnout back. But it's a long process (anyone who has had to work on getting any flexibility back-- especially something like hamstrings, will know how incredibly long and frustrating it can be! But months of waiting will save on months in recovery from an injury), and the worst thing that anyone can do is force it from your ankles or knees-- not only do you risk injury, but you form bad habits in the process. Work with the turnout that you have and work on improving it while you're waiting (and always remain aware that you are using the right muscles to hold it!)

Trust me, you don't want to deal with an ACL tear (I've seen that happen from people who didn't keep their knees over their toes), ankle ligament damage, or even the slow damage that shows up in the need for knee replacements in the future.

FYI, I just had that lecture straight from my ballet teacher when I, out of habit, shoved my feet out 180 degrees and was plieing without keeping my knees over my toes (in my defense, I really didn't realize that I was doing it because I was too focused on just remembering the exercise and getting everything where it needed to be at the right time.) But she said to me: "Don't work in a dream used-to-be world when it comes to your turnout. This is your reality now, and I'd rather have no more injuries from you than a 180 degree turnout"

[doubletoe]

so no matter how loose your hips are, if your glutes are tight, they might actually fight your turnout.

I would think the opposite would be true, i.e., tight outer glutes would pull the hips open. . . ?