Question for judges on adult bronze freeskate test.

[gt20001]

In the test requirements it says you have to do a
Spins:
1-foot upright spin (4 revs)
1-foot back spin - entry optional (3 revs)
Sit spin (3 revs)

I was planning on doing a forward scratch spin for the upright, a regular backspin for the backspin, and i was wanting to do a back sit spin for the sit spin do you know if this would count. If you were a judge how would you judge the back sit spin it is my better sit spin also how low are adult expected to go for a sit spin to count. My coach wasnt sure about the back sit spin i thought the rules just say a sit spin in a recognizable sit position it doesnt say what direction it has to go. Could anyone shed some light on this for me. Thanks

[Mel On Ice]

the only requirement is a sit spin, it does not say forward or back. Do the one most comfortable and you wil be within the rules.

[gt20001]

That is my opinion on it it doesnt say which direction. But i posted on another forum as well and alot of them are saying i should do the forward. I have talked to other adults at our rink and some think as long as it is a 3 revolution sit spin it should count others think if i dont do the forward it wont count. My coach thinks i should be able to do either she asked one of the judges that judged my pre bronze tests and bronze moves and that judge said either should count but she is a newer judge so other adults have said to be leary of listening to what she said and i dont know if she will be on the panel for my bronze freeskate test. I really am frustrated my forward spins have been suffering since a bad fall i had on a scratch spin i havent been able to center one since the fall but backspins have been so much better and i get lower on my back sit as well but i dont want to fail the test becuase i did the wrong direction. :frus: :frus: :frus: :frus:

[Debbie S]

Well, in every Bronze FS and Prelim FS (same elements, same passing standard) test I've seen, the skater did a forward sit spin. I think unless the rulebook specifically says a foot change is required, you should assume it means a forward spin in whatever position they are referring to.

Why don't you or your coach ask other coaches and skaters about their experience with the Bronze test? Has your coach had any students take Bronze or Prelim FS?

And sorry if I sound too much like the teacher I once was, but could you make more of an effort to use proper punctuation in your posts? And watch the length of your paragraphs and sentences? Your posts are sometimes a bit difficult to read and decipher. Thanks!

[NickB]

I know I wouldn't fail (or even mark down) a test with a back sit spin instead of a forward sit spin, because the requirement doesn't specifically say "forward sit spin" and a back sit spin is still a sit spin. Although if a skater did a back scratch spin as the "scratch spin" as well as for the back spin, I would want to see a forward scratch spin since the skater only really demonstrated one spin. However, I am a "newer judge" and can't speak for what other judges would do, since I've never seen a skater do a back sit spin instead of a forward sit spin. The one issue related to spins that I know has caused disagreement among some judges I know is just how literally to interpret "entry optional" on the backspin. Some were willing to have the entry be a forward spin (so the backspin was the 2nd half of a combination spin) and some weren't.

[jazzpants]

I know I wouldn't fail (or even mark down) a test with a back sit spin instead of a forward sit spin, because the requirement doesn't specifically say "forward sit spin" and a back sit spin is still a sit spin. Although if a skater did a back scratch spin as the "scratch spin" as well as for the back spin, I would want to see a forward scratch spin since the skater only really demonstrated one spin. However, I am a "newer judge" and can't speak for what other judges would do, since I've never seen a skater do a back sit spin instead of a forward sit spin. The one issue related to spins that I know has caused disagreement among some judges I know is just how literally to interpret "entry optional" on the backspin. Some were willing to have the entry be a forward spin (so the backspin was the 2nd half of a combination spin) and some weren't.Re: original question, I've only seen forward sit spins only, so I can't really tell 'ya. (I planned on a forward sit spin too, but that's b/c I can't do them backwards.) I don't know. I'd rather play it safe and do a forward sit spin. But that's just me! :??

As for the spin entry optional, most of the people at my rink that has taken and pass this test had a back pivot as their spin entry. I'll probably be doing a FI3 entry, b/c to me it's easier. Of course the pivot seems to help me to get a proper edge more often, so who knows! (*shrug*)

[Isk8NYC]

There are a few judges on this board, so I'm bumping this up for attention from them.

On an Adult Bronze test, you're not required to show that you've MASTERED the elements. While the rulebook doesn't specifically state a forward sit spin is required, I think you're taking a risk by doing a back sit spin. If I were in your skates, I'd work on the forward sit spin and go with the flow on the test.

Your coach has already discouraged you from going against the norm - you should take his/her advice. Are there other adults in your area that you can speak with? Or their coaches? I'd hate to see you fail the test and waste the money because of someone's interpretation. Better to go into the test with knowledge, IMO.

I had an interesting discussion with our Director about testing. She said that students skate differently in the same tests from coast to coast. We know that judges aren't all the same - find out what's acceptable with the judges that will be testing you.

[NickB]

I had an interesting discussion with our Director about testing. She said that students skate differently in the same tests from coast to coast. We know that judges aren't all the same - find out what's acceptable with the judges that will be testing you.

Yep, that's definitely a good idea.

gt20001, do you know whether your test is likely to be judged by a single judge or 3 judges? If you can it certainly wouldn't hurt to ask judges who will be likely to judge your test. So far you've gotten one "OK" it sounds like. Although I also agree with the other posters that you should work on your forward sit spin anyway, that way if the judges do ask you to do a forward one you can at least have it for back up (and it's a good skill to have anyway!)-- one I still need to get consistent on! I did one really good one in my lesson last week that shocked me and my coach and felt SO cool! Unfortunately I haven't been able to do one that comes even close since. :??

[jenlyon60]

I personally would prefer to see the forward sit spin rather than the back sit spin. Logic being that based on the element wording, it could very easily be interpreted that a "sit spin" is meant to be a forward sit spin. Given that the backspin is clearly identified as "back"-spin, a requirement for a back sitspin would typically be identified as "back sitspin"

Curiously enough, though, on the Juvenile FS test, the solo sit spin requirement is specified to be a FORWARD sit spin, with the combo spin at that level specified as one spin with change of foot, change of position optional; must include one of the following positions: camel, sit, or attitude. And the Intermediate FS test requires a "Sit to change-foot sit, 4 revs each foot in position" which technically could be a sit-backsit or a backsit-forward sit, but my recollection is that generally testers do a forwards sit-backsit spin for the change-foot spin

And if a skater did a backspin as a change-foot out of a forward scratch where the spin is clearly a change-foot spin, I'd probably note that the skater did the change-foot spin, and then I would probably request the skater skate a solo backspin to fulfil the backspin requirement, explaining to the skater "the test requirement is .... but you did a change-foot spin. I'd like to see a solo backspin."

Starting the backspin from a pivot or an FI3 .... as long as the skater completes at least the required number of revolutions and doesn't fall out of the spin.... that's fine with me. If the spin is never centered from the start, however, and travels to the point of looking like a 4 or 5 revolution twizzle, I would probably ask for a reskate.

Hope this helps.

[doubletoe]

When do you need to pass your test? If you don't need to pass it until the beginning of January, you could always take it in October and do your reverse sitspin and see if the judges pass you. If they don't, then you can work on your forward sit and try again in a month or two.
Incidentally, if you don't pass specifically because of your sitspin, you could point out that no distinction is made in the wording for the test requirements OR in the list of elements used for the new judging system. This list distinguishes each type of spin, jump, etc. and it lumps both forward and reverse sitspins under the code, "SSp" so they count as the same spin with the same point value.

[Mel On Ice]

again, as a judge, I would pass you if you did an adequate sit spin either way

[gt20001]

Well i did have 3 different spins i was going to do a forward scratch, a back scratch , and a back sit spin. I am currently working on my forward sit spin becuase i am not liking some of the negativity to the back sit spin. If the forward sit spin really feels off and the other one is better i may do as some on here have stated and try it and if they say they need a reskate then i will try the forward on the reskate. I am testing this at the Buckeye in two weeks, I want to give it a try i just wanted to get some other peoples and judges opinions on that before i tried it. My coach thought i should be able to do either as well and one of our judges that has been on 3 of my test panels already thought it would be ok as well but i dont know if she will be on this test panel. I would really like to pass this the first time. I am going to try and do the forward sit. It is getting a little better now that another adult showed me a different entry for it. It seems to feel much better now, but is still really inconsistent. My forward sit still travels a bit the back sit tends to center so much better and i feel i get a better position in the back sit as well. I think i may just try and go with my better of the two that day with the forward as a back up for a reskate if i chose the back sit.

[doubletoe]

I think i may just try and go with my better of the two that day with the forward as a back up for a reskate if i chose the back sit.
That sounds like a good plan. :)