Need advice on Loop, toeloop and sitspin

[xofivebyfive]

So my coach taught me the last two of the single jumps: toeloop and loop and the sitspin on Friday. I can already do a flip, salchow and sometimes almost a lutz. Weird order of learning, I know.

1. With the toeloop. It's very weird for me to pick back with the left foot. I always seem to bend my leg before making contact with the ice. And then I'm not sure how to jump around. My coach explained it as once I pick and then bend, basically do a waltz jump from the left toepick. Is this correct, or was it just a way to introduce it to me? I'm not sure because it seems too easy.. probably because the flip was so dang hard for a month or two.

2. The loop. Ah. What can I say about this jump. Impossible? Probably. I get not having basically any weight on the left foot. How the heck do you get from backward outside edge, onto the toepick and rotate in the air. I've tried off ice to jump from my right and go around, and it's very very hard if I ever can do it. I'm also not quite sure what my left leg should do, as well as my arms. If there's any exercises on or off ice that I can do to help this out, please let me know.

3. With the sitspin, I'm going in a deeply bent knee, keeping my shoulders back and my back straight. I am okay with the basic positioning but I'm trying to be able to go lower than I have been. My ankle just refuses to go down anymore.. And also, my coach said to bend the knee like you would in a scratch spin once you are spinning. I can't do that without falling over or bailing out.

Any tips about any of these would be greatly appreciated, as my next lesson isn't until Friday.

[froggy]

very interesting order of learning the jumps! I'm opening up a can of worms here..theres a thread posted initially by me about the toe loop. yes your coach is teaching you the "beginning way". my coach today actually went over the "real" way of doing the toe loop. the reason why im putting it in quotes is b/c I dont think there is a an absolute real way anyhow, if you have the chance look at the diff of michell kwans vs kimmie meissner's toe loop and youll see what i mean.

in the more advanced..real whatever you want to refere it way,

1. inside 3 turn
2. pick with foot
3. don't let that left arm swing back!
4. your right skating leg will kinda of sneak its way and glide across and 1/4 around the picking foot from there you spring into the air

a 1/4 turn "cheat" is perfectly fine for this jump, but dont think of that since chances are you will really cheat by turning your whole body half way b/f jumping! good luck..the toe loop is definatley my fav jump!!

my advice on the loop, wish i can help you out with that my loop is non existance. my coach gives me exercises like doing falling leaves and doing a the "loop" but instead of jumping just do a back 3. in your mind think, keep weight to right side. commit yourself to that side. (assuming ccw).

sit spin..ill stay on the look out for what others have to say. the sit spin is just the devil for me. you can be sure when i get it there will be big celebration. in the meantime i shoot the duck and get wet while practicing. :frus:

[beachbabe]

ok:

toeloop- no it not acceptable to do a waltz jump off your toepick. It is ok to learn it like that just untill your comfortable but its vital to egt in to the proper technique as soon as you can.

In the proper technique you do a LFI edge to a RFI edge, RFI3 turn and pick in with the left foot directly behind you (it helps to think of crossing it behind you so that your foot does not get too out to the side. If your foot is too far right you'll egt injured- trust me been there done that. If your foot is too far left you're likely to do the cheat.).
Basically, passing standard for this jump means only a very small cheat is aloowed, by no means sould you be doing a waltz jump off your toepick. If you pick in directly behind you you will not have this problem, but it is common when you pick too far to your left.


Loop- when you jump, whether you do it from a 3-turn or back crossovers- you have to keep all tyour body weight over your right side (your right hip), when you go into the jump you should have none or very little weight on your left foot. The jump comes from bending your knees very deep (especially the right knee) and then pulling in with your arms. All I can sya it practice, practice and practice and keep at it b/c I guarantee you will land it when you least expect it- its just that kind of a jump.



sit spin- make sure you go into it low- dont try to lower yourself from a scratch spin. The idea is to egt your knees touching and squeeze your thighs together as hard as you can. Don't lean back or too far forward. Its good to keep an upright posture and bending forward just slightly.

To get it low- the best excercise from my experience is to start as low as you can and keep going doen as you spin untill you fall and start spinning on your butt. It doesn't hurt if you get all the way down before you fall- and eventally you jsut stop falling and you'll eb able to maintain the position.






wow...that was looooooong

[xofivebyfive]

Thank you so much! I'll try all these out this morning!

[slusher]

I hate the loop, I really do but can do it if forced by my coach. It's an issue of timing there is a definite up down up rhythm to the jump. I can do the loop either from crossovers, a pull or inside 3 or the back half of a combination but when it disappears I go back to the inside 3 method so I can regain the timing.

Inside 3 - keep free leg in front and off the ice
UP TURN DOWN
As you want to flip out of the turn or do a back 3 - jump - UP

It's that few inches of the ice that give me grief. Once I have the up down up, then I can get it from crossovers again.

I think you need solid 3 turns more than having a backspin, some coaches push doing multiple backspins to get the loop feel, but it doesn't give you the timing of when to go UP!

[Skate@Delaware]

Toe Loop: try to stay away from the toe-waltz. It's a bad habit to try to unlearn!!!! Trust me on this! When you have "turned your 3" (which should be sort of shallow) be sure your knee is bent but your body is upright i.e. don't break forward at the waist. Keep that back picking leg as straight as you can as it finds the ice. What you are going for is a vaulting motion not a jabbing. When you are swinging the other leg through, it's a sideways motion, like kicking a soccer ball.

Loop: I'm still having issues on this (keep landing it as a half-loop) but will tell you what has helped me. First, be sure all your weight is on that right back outside edge (assuming you are on the right leg doing this jump). I do this jump from back crossovers. Keep the right arm way back and the left arm in front, do your last crossover and keep the left foot off the ice crossed in front slightly, bend down on the right leg (this deepens your edge also). As you spring up, you will also lift your left knee and bring your arms a little towards your left chest (while looking left). This is the jump where you really have to bend deep and spring up hard to make it happen. You also have to really be on that edge so if you are insecure it will hold you back.

Sit spin: I'm still working on this one and haven't gotten it yet, but I'm closer. What helps me is going in low from the beginning, closing the legs together right away (point the free leg toe at the 2 o'clock position not up and down), and arching my back as I'm reaching forward. It helps get me into a better position and not so topsy-turvy.

[Skate@Delaware]

I hate the loop, I really do but can do it if forced by my coach. It's an issue of timing there is a definite up down up rhythm to the jump. I can do the loop either from crossovers, a pull or inside 3 or the back half of a combination but when it disappears I go back to the inside 3 method so I can regain the timing.

Inside 3 - keep free leg in front and off the ice
UP TURN DOWN
As you want to flip out of the turn or do a back 3 - jump - UP

It's that few inches of the ice that give me grief. Once I have the up down up, then I can get it from crossovers again.

I think you need solid 3 turns more than having a backspin, some coaches push doing multiple backspins to get the loop feel, but it doesn't give you the timing of when to go UP!

I couldn't get it at all, so my coach started me on the flip which really helped. I don't have a backspin (oooh, one revolution...does that count???):roll:
But learning the flip helped tons, and doing a kazillion back outside edges, as deep as she forced me to 8O Yikes!!!!

Put some pads on!!!!

[xofivebyfive]

Maybe my issue with the loop is partly because I haven't learned back 3 turns yet.. haha.

[beachbabe]

Maybe my issue with the loop is partly because I haven't learned back 3 turns yet.. haha.

I had a loop long before back 3 turns. By 3turn, people mean that you get yourself in that set up posotion by doing a forward RI3 turn. Esentially you end up in the same position as you would if you were setting up with back crossovers, except that after the 3turn your foot would be liften slightly in front of you, while in the crossover method your left foot gently touches the ice.

Either way your weight must be over the right hip.

some people find the 3-turn method easier, but for me i learne dwith crossovers right away because it jsut felt easier for me. You should try both ways to know what works best for you.

[vesperholly]

The loop is a completely right-side jump. The entire push from the jump comes from your right knee (CCW). Your left side is there to check the entrance so it doesn't get spinny, and wraps around the right side during the jump.

I would highly recommend learning the RBO-3 alongside the loop. It doesn't have to be a perfect turn, but a basic grasp of it will help. In a BO-3, you will learn to initiate a rotation with the RBO edge, as well as checking the RFI edge.

Here's a quick exercise on the floor. Stand with your weight on your right foot, placing your left foot forward about a foot (a comfortable distance apart, this should not be a stretch). Put your left arm straight in front, and your right arm to the side to form an L with your arms. Bend your knees, and then straighten. As you straighten, lift the left leg off the ground with the knee bent, thigh parallel to the floor, so you are only on your right foot. There should be a slight weight shift back on to your right foot. This mimics the takeoff of the jump, without the curve of the BO edge.

If you're interested, I have some video of me doing a single loop from both a FI-3 and crossovers. If you're a visual learner, they might help? Loops are my favorite jumps. :halo:

[Skate@Delaware]

Vesperholly, thanks for the exercise! I forgot about that one (I'm a dummy when it comes to doing stuff off ice except jumping on my trampoline, which has helped tremendously).

I'd like to see the video.

Any tips for keeping that left leg up so I can actually land on my right leg? (I know you will say "just keep it up!" :lol: I think it's a security issue...sometimes I only tap the left toe down and sometimes I land on the left foot (making it a half-loop)...guess I'm a big chicken and afraid of wiping out...bwak, bwak!!!!

[vesperholly]

Any tips for keeping that left leg up so I can actually land on my right leg? (I know you will say "just keep it up!" :lol: I think it's a security issue...sometimes I only tap the left toe down and sometimes I land on the left foot (making it a half-loop)...guess I'm a big chicken and afraid of wiping out...bwak, bwak!!!!
Bend your left knee just a little bit and raise it slightly higher than normal when you take off.

Video:
RFI 3-turn loop (http://users.adelphia.net/~jdelmar/video/3-turn loop.wmv)
Loop from back crossovers (http://users.adelphia.net/~jdelmar/video/loop1.wmv)

[WannabeS8r]

Here's a good visual example of a "right" loop. :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFJvERhZFCM

[doubletoe]

Vesperholly, thanks for the exercise! I forgot about that one (I'm a dummy when it comes to doing stuff off ice except jumping on my trampoline, which has helped tremendously).

I'd like to see the video.

Any tips for keeping that left leg up so I can actually land on my right leg? (I know you will say "just keep it up!" :lol: I think it's a security issue...sometimes I only tap the left toe down and sometimes I land on the left foot (making it a half-loop)...guess I'm a big chicken and afraid of wiping out...bwak, bwak!!!!

Yes, it's all about keeping the weight on your landing side and staying backwards. Backspins are the best practice for that. Also, when you take off on the loop, you help lift yourself by lifting the left thigh/knee. As a result, the free foot ends up in front of the shin of the landing leg, which helps keep your weight over the right side. Also keep the hip on the free side (left, for most of us) closed so that leg doesn't open out while you're in the air. That will make it impossible to keep the weight on the landing side.

If you're already doing these things and still 2-footing just out of insecurity, try doing a toeloop right immediately upon landing. That will make you think about checking your free leg out and getting it behind you instead of putting it down on the ice next to you when you land. :)

[vesperholly]

Also keep the hip on the free side (left, for most of us) closed so that leg doesn't open out while you're in the air. That will make it impossible to keep the weight on the landing side.
Good advice. In the same vein, think about turning your left toe in as well. My mind understands correct hip positions, but changing free foot positions helps my body understand the correct hip position, like a rudder.

[vesperholly]

Here's a good visual example of a "right" loop. :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFJvERhZFCM
I don't think that's a good example at all. The free leg position is totally wrong. It's bent and out to the side, and the skating leg is also bent in the air, like this when you freeze frame: << There is no backspin position at all.

[jazzpants]

Any tips for keeping that left leg up so I can actually land on my right leg? (I know you will say "just keep it up!" :lol: I think it's a security issue...sometimes I only tap the left toe down and sometimes I land on the left foot (making it a half-loop)...guess I'm a big chicken and afraid of wiping out...bwak, bwak!!!!Can I join the loop chickens here? Boc boc boc, BAKOOOOCK!!! :frus: :lol:

Okay, vesperholly, I feel embarassed asking questions about the loop since you know how long I've been working on that jump. (Like FOREVER!?!?!) :frus: but... I've been working on the timing of when to take off and I noticed in your video when you do a half turn on a BO edge that your foot is still firmly on the ice after the half turn but you start lifting off from your foot then? Is that the correct timing?

I've been experimenting with holding the edge longer and really curve 'til I can't curve anymore and then go up on the jump! That seems to work a bit better (but I'm still two footing the landing...) :twisted:

[vesperholly]

Okay, vesperholly, I feel embarassed asking questions about the loop since you know how long I've been working on that jump. (Like FOREVER!?!?!) :frus: but... I've been working on the timing of when to take off and I noticed in your video when you do a half turn on a BO edge that your foot is still firmly on the ice after the half turn but you start lifting off from your foot then? Is that the correct timing?
Don't be embarrassed - how long have I been working on the axel?! :frus:

I'm confused - are you talking about my skating foot after the 3-turn?

[Skate@Delaware]

Jazz, if it helps, I do the loop from back xovers and I'm not allowed to hold the back glide very long (my coach beats me up on this)....because of my "chicken" issue. So it's back xover, back xover, bend, jump; all to a pretty good cadence (not a funeral dirge beat, more peppy-like 1-and-2-and-etc. Hope that makes sense.)

I had a habit of dragging it out and either chickening out or completely losing steam.

I skate tonight and I'm going to try looping...We haven't worked it since the rink re-opened for the season but I want to start working on it again.

(rushing to print these tips out for my skate notebook)

[jazzpants]

Don't be embarrassed - how long have I been working on the axel?! :frus:

I'm confused - are you talking about my skating foot after the 3-turn?Yup! Skating foot after the 3turn...

S@D: For what it's worth, the secondary coach did fix a major contributor to my two footing my loop... Problem now is now fixing the landing!!! That part of me is just me being a BIG FREAKIN' CHICKEN!!! Boc boc boc...

[vesperholly]

Yup! Skating foot after the 3turn...
Oh, OK. I wasn't quite sure what you meant, of course my skating foot is solidly on the ice after the 3-turn, why wouldn't it be? Otherwise that'd mean I was falling! :lol: Do you mean that I wait longer on the RBO edge than you'd expect?

Try to think of the 3-turn as a separate entity from the loop jump that follows it. You should not do a loop instantaneously from the 3-turn, it needs to be a nice RFI-RBO THEN jump. The timing is "step step down UP" for RFI, RBO, down in your knee, UP for the jump. Also, remember to keep the left foot in front after the 3-turn. You should be turning under your right side.

[Sonic]

To add my two cents worth (and I'll say my usual, for the umpteenth boring time 'I'm-no-expert-this-is-only-my-opinion'...lol!):

Following on from what Vesperholly says, I have found that if you do a loop from back crossovers rather than directly after a three turn, it can help you cross your legs in the air.

I mean, if you lean slightly to the right, the free foot gently touching the ice, then when you take off the natural reaction is for the free foot to move across the other one. Whereas if you take off directy after the three-turn - especially from an inside one - the natrual reaction is to simply pick the free foot up, which in my case results in a the free leg getting into a very ungainly postion, and only a 1/2 - 3/4 rotated jump.

S xxx

[doubletoe]

That makes a lot of sense. The challenges of doing a loop from back crossovers are getting enough of a curl on the takeoff edge and making sure you don't drop the takeoff side shoulder. You also have to really make yourself bend deeply, since you don't have the rhythm of a 3-turn to help you.

[jazzpants]

Oh, OK. I wasn't quite sure what you meant, of course my skating foot is solidly on the ice after the 3-turn, why wouldn't it be? Otherwise that'd mean I was falling! :lol: Do you mean that I wait longer on the RBO edge than you'd expect?LOL!!! Yup! That's what I mean!!! :lol:

Try to think of the 3-turn as a separate entity from the loop jump that follows it. You should not do a loop instantaneously from the 3-turn, it needs to be a nice RFI-RBO THEN jump. The timing is "step step down UP" for RFI, RBO, down in your knee, UP for the jump.I'm working on that.

Also, remember to keep the left foot in front after the 3-turn. You should be turning under your right side.That's my exercise this morning!!! (Turning under that is...) It looks better this morning. Now it's a matter of not being such a chicken coming out of it when I land... :lol:

[Terri C]

Now I have a question:
How are you to lower your sitspin? I have tried and tried and tried and pushed and pressed till I can't no more and Primary Coach still wants it lower!! :frus:

[beachbabe]

Now I have a question:
How are you to lower your sitspin? I have tried and tried and tried and pushed and pressed till I can't no more and Primary Coach still wants it lower!! :frus:
my coach jsut made me go down untill I fall basically and start spinning on my butt. its fun, it doesn't hurt if you get low enough before you fall...and after a while you stop falling and can hold a really low position.

my coach would yell at me "LOWER, LOWER, LOWER!!!" untill i fell and it worked. Now shes very proud of my sit spin.

[doubletoe]

Now I have a question:
How are you to lower your sitspin? I have tried and tried and tried and pushed and pressed till I can't no more and Primary Coach still wants it lower!! :frus:

Here is a brilliant trick for achieving the proper sitspin position: When you can feel the top of the calf of your spinning leg pressing against the inside of the thigh of your free leg, that means your skating thigh is parallel to the ice and you will get full credit for the position. Practice the position off ice in shoes with a 2" heel, and try backward shoot-the ducks before trying it on the sitspin.

More sitspin tips:

- Start off as deeply bent as possible when you push off into the spin, and keep your back tight and arched (actually, you'll want to keep your back tight and arched all the way from the entrance edge until the end of the spin).
- Extend the free leg way behind you as you go into the spin on a deeply bent knee.
- Keeping the free leg locked out straight, swing it smoothly but powerfully, like a pendulum, using your stiff back to support you as you do so.
- Turn the free foot out quickly as soon as it reaches the 2:00 position (or 10:00 for CW skaters) and, without slowing down the swing, let it come all the way in to collide with the free leg.
- Now keep arching your back and pushing your chest forward as you continue to lower your seat, feeling for the calf-against-thigh position.
- Remember to stay on the ball of your foot from the swing all the way through to the end of the spin. Just focus on the ball of your foot (right behind the bottom toepick) the whole time and that should keep you from falling back onto your heel.

[Terri C]

my coach jsut made me go down untill I fall basically and start spinning on my butt. its fun, it doesn't hurt if you get low enough before you fall...and after a while you stop falling and can hold a really low position.

my coach would yell at me "LOWER, LOWER, LOWER!!!" untill i fell and it worked. Now shes very proud of my sit spin.

Actually, I may try that next lesson and tell my coach that that as low as a sitpsin as I will get!!

[Sonic]

Some great tips on sitspins - now I have a question:

I've been told by other people on the rink, including my coach once, that my sit spin is perfectly acceptable and recognisable as a sit spin.

To my credit, yes, more often than not now I get them well centred and that includes not travelling when I go back up into the upright spin position.

The problem is, I cannot get very low. I am still absolutely nowhere near a shoot the duck, I managed a shoot the duck off ice one afternoon, but have never been able to replicate that since.

So - what do you guys think? do I keep working and working to get a low sit spin - or should I accept that I am simply not very flexible and stop trying to achieve the impossible?

S xxx

[doubletoe]

Some great tips on sitspins - now I have a question:

I've been told by other people on the rink, including my coach once, that my sit spin is perfectly acceptable and recognisable as a sit spin.

To my credit, yes, more often than not now I get them well centred and that includes not travelling when I go back up into the upright spin position.

The problem is, I cannot get very low. I am still absolutely nowhere near a shoot the duck, I managed a shoot the duck off ice one afternoon, but have never been able to replicate that since.

So - what do you guys think? do I keep working and working to get a low sit spin - or should I accept that I am simply not very flexible and stop trying to achieve the impossible?

S xxx

Hi, Sonic. :)
There are three factors to consider: (1) flexibility, (2) strength (3) balance.
For flexibility, make sure you always stretch out your calves after skating. Hold the stretch for at least 30 seconds on each side.
For strength, practice sitting down into the position and getting up from it off the ice, in shoes with about a 2" heel.
Doing the 1-legged deep knee bends off ice will help your balance, too. A sitspin is much easier than a shoot-the-duck because you can lift your heel off the ice and really get your weight on the ball of your foot. Also, the centrifugal force helps a lot!
If it's any encouragement, my sitspin never used to be low enough. Then, about 2 years ago, my coach told me the trick about feeling your skating leg calf pressing against the inside of the thigh of your free leg. So I tried the position off ice, and then, 5 minutes after first trying it on the ice, I had a low enough sitspin! :D

[beachbabe]

Some great tips on sitspins - now I have a question:

I've been told by other people on the rink, including my coach once, that my sit spin is perfectly acceptable and recognisable as a sit spin.

To my credit, yes, more often than not now I get them well centred and that includes not travelling when I go back up into the upright spin position.

The problem is, I cannot get very low. I am still absolutely nowhere near a shoot the duck, I managed a shoot the duck off ice one afternoon, but have never been able to replicate that since.

So - what do you guys think? do I keep working and working to get a low sit spin - or should I accept that I am simply not very flexible and stop trying to achieve the impossible?

S xxx

you don't need a shoot the duck to do a sit spint hough it certainly helps. Work on it some, but if it just frustrates you its ok. I can get into a shoot the duck but cant get uip from it without falling.

don't worry about it, but working on it from time to time does help.



one thing that hepled me a lot with the sit spin was the classic skier exercise my mom taught me:

You stand up against a wall and bend your knees so your thigh is almsot parallel to the ground. Then you just hold the position as long as you can- I usually aim for about 2 minutes each rep.

[Sk8pdx]

Awesome advice everyone, It has been a good thread to read about 2 of my skating evils :twisted: Loop and Sit Spin.
Hail to the chickens! :bow:

[Mrs Redboots]

The problem is, I cannot get very low. I am still absolutely nowhere near a shoot the duck, I managed a shoot the duck off ice one afternoon, but have never been able to replicate that since.I shouldn't worry - my coach really can't do a teapot at all, but he has a most respectable sit-spin. He says it's to do with his centre of gravity... a likely story, as he says when I make some excuse as to why I can't do things!

[xofivebyfive]

I just wanted to thank everyone here for their input, as I landed my Loop yesterday(two footed.. the others that were one foot were cheated 1/2 a rotation.. haha) and my sitspin has gotten considerably lower and faster than when I started by following what everyone has said. Here's a clip from Monday, the first time I practiced the sitspin after learning it. It's bad but it's the only video I have: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1zzU_TxiUn4 It's gotten way lower, stronger, and faster in just a couple of days thanks to you guys. :bow:

[doubletoe]

I just wanted to thank everyone here for their input, as I landed my Loop yesterday(two footed.. the others that were one foot were cheated 1/2 a rotation.. haha) and my sitspin has gotten considerably lower and faster than when I started by following what everyone has said. Here's a clip from Monday, the first time I practiced the sitspin after learning it. It's bad but it's the only video I have: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1zzU_TxiUn4 It's gotten way lower, stronger, and faster in just a couple of days thanks to you guys. :bow:


Good job!! Now to get more power, bend REALLY deeply (thigh parallel to the ice) and extend your free leg waaaay behind you on the entrance edge and let it almost cross behind the skating leg a little before swinging it around to the front. Also, lift your chin and arch your back (chest out and shoulder blades squeezed together in your back) from the moment you push off onto the entrance edge until the end of the spin. :D