Coaches' Corner Number 2

[Isk8NYC]

Welcome to the new season and a new coaches' corner! Here is a place for instructors/coaches to DISCREETELY post bits and pieces of our very interesting jobs: questions, situations, families and teaching are all welcome.

[Isk8NYC]

My main rink's groups started yesterday, a week earlier than in past years. Enrollment's pretty sparse right now, probably because school just started and parents have to work out all their other committments at the same time.

I had only one group, hopefully that will change as people register. But I really liked them, they're a nice bunch of pre-teen beginners.

Then, I went to the other rink I'm teaching at this year. Didn't expect to have any groups since the Director didn't call me and say "please come" but I was teaching at the freestyle later, so I went early just in case. I ended up with a Basic 5 and a Freeskate 2/3 group. Later, she had me teach a Pre-Prel MITF "group" that only had one skater. (Essentially, it was a private lesson.)

After teaching my two privates (who were also in one of the groups), the Director asked if I would want to teach the PPMITF student private lessons as well! Nice kid, and I'm absolutely thrilled.

[phoenix]

Yesterday was our first group class too. Our numbers are also Waaayyyyy down from normal.

I have Basic 5, 5 girls. 4 around the same age, maybe 8-9, and one tiny, teeny little thing that is maybe 5! She really shouldn't be in the class, it's too high for her, but I'll give it one more week & see how she does. She tries hard & can *sort of* do the things....just is very weak on her basics.

Actually, that brings me to my rant for the day: please, PLEASE don't pass kids through their levels if they aren't doing the skills WELL!!! I spent about 10 minutes of the class teaching front crossovers (a Basic 4 skill) the *right* way, since every single one of them was walking off their toepicks on the crossing under leg. And it clearly was a new concept to them to let that foot keep gliding through & push with it as it leaves the ice. Nor could most of them stroke backwards, & barely do a backward 1 foot glide. How am I supposed to teach them backward edges??!

But regardless, they're all sweet, pay attention, & work hard, so I'm going to enjoy the class. I just wish we had more than 6 weeks per session--something the rink management just changed from 8 weeks---it's so hard to get much of anything done now. :frus: Especially at the higher levels.

[dbny]

I just got a call from the skating director at the only all-season rink where I work, telling me that enrollment is so slim for the two days that I'm available, that she doesn't have anything for me yet. She also mentioned that she was starting a week early this year. Later I realized that her start date is 9/11 and I think that could have something to do with it. I may go on Monday just to be on hand if there is a last minute turnout, which does often happen.
On the plus side, she talked about having an adult group, so I know it's mine if she gets enough interest to do it.

[Isk8NYC]

Our rink does 10-week sessions. It's only at Basic4-6 that kids tend to repeat. Having taught 6-week sessions, I know it's not unusual for kids to repeat levels. Sometimes, it helps the parents to hear that from an instructor, so they don't think the skater is at fault in any way.

DBNY - I "invited" one of my adult skaters to do groups this year. She tends to come for a 30 minute lesson and leave during a 2-hour public. Her BF is a hockey skater, but I guess she doesn't want to commit practice time. I'm hoping some socialization will help her practice more; her progress is very slow.

[phoenix]

Our rink does 10-week sessions. It's only at Basic4-6 that kids tend to repeat. Having taught 6-week sessions, I know it's not unusual for kids to repeat levels. Sometimes, it helps the parents to hear that from an instructor, so they don't think the skater is at fault in any way.

Our program used to be 10 weeks, then they changed it to 8, & now it's 6. And you're right, the chance of the kids in the higher classes passing in 6 weeks on the first time through is slim to none, and then the parents are ticked that their kid isn't progressing. :frus: :frus:

[CanAmSk8ter]

Actually, that brings me to my rant for the day: please, PLEASE don't pass kids through their levels if they aren't doing the skills WELL!!! I spent about 10 minutes of the class teaching front crossovers (a Basic 4 skill) the *right* way, since every single one of them was walking off their toepicks on the crossing under leg. And it clearly was a new concept to them to let that foot keep gliding through & push with it as it leaves the ice. Nor could most of them stroke backwards, & barely do a backward 1 foot glide. How am I supposed to teach them backward edges??!

This is my rant for the year. I had a thirteen-year-old Basic 6 this weekend who doesn't know an outside from an inside edge, can't check a three-turn, can't do anything resembling a mohawk, but she's been taught waltz jumps, spins, and salchows. Her Basic Six skills were actually decent, other than the inside threes and back-to-forward turns, but her basics are appalling. I think she probably could master the Basic 6 stuff well enough to pass by the end of the session, but I hate the idea of putting her up a level when her Basic 4 and 5 skills are so weak.

[phoenix]

I'm with you!! IMO, the Basic 4 & 5 stuff is some of the *most important* they'll learn, since those things (edges, 3 turns, crossovers) are the building blocks of everything to come. I'm going to put together a little handout for next week for the parents, explaining some of that stuff, so they won't be so shocked when most of the kids don't pass this level.

[Isk8NYC]

I'm with you!! IMO, the Basic 4 & 5 stuff is some of the *most important* they'll learn, since those things (edges, 3 turns, crossovers) are the building blocks of everything to come. I'm going to put together a little handout for next week for the parents, explaining some of that stuff, so they won't be so shocked when most of the kids don't pass this level.Good idea. Add in a note about how lessons don't replace the need for PRACTICE! One parent decided to put their daughter into two group lessons to help speed up the skill acquisition. (I did this with YMCA Gymnastics when my DD plateued and wanted to quit. It does work.)

Those two are always the "sticky" levels. The skaters get bored in doing those maneuvers over and over. I tell my students that they can't complain about doing a maneuver until they've done 100 of them. Their reaction: 8O

To make it more interesting, I make up little mini-programs using the turns and edges and have them "perform" the routine.

I'm not quick to pass kids up to the next level, but I won't hold them back in groups for one element on a test. Our rink also allows "mixed" classes, so I'll recommend a Basic 4/5 for a kid that has most of the Basic 4 elements and just needs a little more time to master the entire test.

You have to balance the need for skills with their interest level in group lessons.

[dbny]

I wouldn't go so hard on the not knowing inside from outside edges. There are people who can never get them right just as there are people who can never figure out which is their right hand and which is their left.

[Isk8NYC]

My sister's a southpaw, and any time we drive together, I have to tell her to turn "Your Left" or "My Left." ROTFLOL

I had two private lessons last night during the group lesson session. The group lessons were empty! One instructor lost her group, because the kids were moved into other groups based on age and level. Hope this picks up soon.

Does anyone use "parent volunteers" on the ice during group lessons? What works and what doesn't?

[Isk8NYC]

From the mouths of babes: I teach a pre-teen Basic 5 groups on thursdays. Great kids who listen, want to learn, and really try. Plus, get this: THEY PRACTICE WHATEVER I ASK!

Anyway, yesterday (3rd lesson) I was working on spins with them. I introduced a new-to-them arm position that brought their arms close to their bodies. Three of them remarked with delight: "That makes me spin faster!" So, I did my PSA-endorsed physics lesson about spinning.

Love this group of kids.

[Isk8NYC]

Opinions, please.

A new skaters wants to play hockey. Our LTS program recommends starting out on figure skates initially, then switching to hockey skates once the skater's "moving." Most parents comply without a problem. One of the in-rink hockey coaches insists that this is a bad idea and will take too long to switch.

How hard is it to transfer from figure skates to hockey skates?

[Erica Lee]

I'd say that if the goal is hockey right from the beginning, let the kid skate in hockey skates. It may mean adjusting methods of teaching and/or skill expectations slightly, but as a figure skating community that is shrinking and shrinking, we really need to bend over backwards to jump on these kinds of opportunities and do as little as possible to put up any barriers.

[dbny]

I'd say that if the goal is hockey right from the beginning, let the kid skate in hockey skates. It may mean adjusting methods of teaching and/or skill expectations slightly, but as a figure skating community that is shrinking and shrinking, we really need to bend over backwards to jump on these kinds of opportunities and do as little as possible to put up any barriers.

Whereas, I have found that putting kids into hockey skates right away is more often than not a huge barrier. Hockey skates are much harder to learn in, and I've seen kids who started in them lose heart because they simply cannot stand up. I've also seen kids whose goal was hockey, get started in figure skates, switch too soon, and be back at square one. Some stick with it; others do not. There are the very rare individuals who can put on any skates and just go. If their parents have the money, and they have the passion and it lasts long enough we may someday see them in the olympics.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Opinions, please.

A new skaters wants to play hockey. Our LTS program recommends starting out on figure skates initially, then switching to hockey skates once the skater's "moving." Most parents comply without a problem. One of the in-rink hockey coaches insists that this is a bad idea and will take too long to switch.

How hard is it to transfer from figure skates to hockey skates?

:shrug: I put on hockey skates for the first time when I had been skating for ten years and had no problem. But I don't think that's quite what you mean ;)

I usually recommend trying the figure skates when a learn-to-skater in hockey skates is struggling, or just getting discouraged. Most of them, with six weeks or so, are ready to put the hockey skates back on and do fine. I'd rather, especially when they're very young, have them take a bit of time to switch than risk having them get discouraged and decide they don't even like skating. I wouldn't wait until they're in Basic 4 or anything before making the switch, but doing a month or two in figure skates shouldn't be a problem. I mean, they have to skate fairly well before they can sign up for youth hockey; it's not like we'd get a kid comfortable in figure skates and then throw them into their first Mite game in hockey skates for the first time.

[Isk8NYC]

You're right CanAmSk8ter: I meant how long does the changeover take for rank beginners, not experienced skaters. lol
(I haven't tried hockey skates in many years, now I'm intrigued.)

Just looking for some kind of a statistic, in case I have to sell the idea. I might recommend one session (10 weeks) since they'll probably use rentals. They'll be paying for them full-session and our rentals are a bit dull, so 10 weeks on the figure skates would work. I'm guessing an hour or two (1-2 class sessions) and they'd be okay in the hockey skates. Sound good?

(Where's Gary when I need him? He always knows these things.)

I'd say that if the goal is hockey right from the beginning, let the kid skate in hockey skates. It may mean adjusting methods of teaching and/or skill expectations slightly, but as a figure skating community that is shrinking and shrinking, we really need to bend over backwards to jump on these kinds of opportunities and do as little as possible to put up any barriers.Hockey LTS is different from regular LTS, so I'm not sure what you mean by "adjusting methods" since I'm not planning to move the kid into a different class. I'm more concerned about losing a skater who gets frustrated or injured trying to learn to balance side-to-side as well as front-to-back. Those are the kids who refuse to continue, which is a failure on our parts.

How do you adjust your teaching methods between hockey and regular figure skates?

[Isk8NYC]

This is my rant for the year. I had a thirteen-year-old Basic 6 this weekend who doesn't know an outside from an inside edge, can't check a three-turn, can't do anything resembling a mohawk, but she's been taught waltz jumps, spins, and salchows. Her Basic Six skills were actually decent, other than the inside threes and back-to-forward turns, but her basics are appalling. I think she probably could master the Basic 6 stuff well enough to pass by the end of the session, but I hate the idea of putting her up a level when her Basic 4 and 5 skills are so weak.You're preaching to the choir. I constantly get nagged "When are we going to work on waltz jumps? Are waltz jumps in this level?"
WHY DO THEY KNOW WHAT A WALTZ JUMP IS???
This is always from skaters that can't hold a back edge or control their free foot.

Recently, one of my favorite B4/5 classes asked about waltz jumps.
I called their bluff and said "Show me what you've got."

Every.single.one.did.the.waltz.jump.badly.AND.oppo site.their.spin.direction.
That explains the weak takeoffs and out-of-control landings, to some extent -- they haven't developed the foundation skills yet.

Maybe the ISI is right about introducing this earlier. (I teach in two Basic Skills programs weekly this year.) It seems like kids are either teaching themselves how to do it or some instructors are introducing it as a fun activity at a very low level. I tried to bring it up at a coaches meeting but I was "shushed" because some people wanted to leave early.

It's really tough re-teaching these jumps once the skaters have the muscle memory. I'm trying a new tact (tack?) this year that's working out better: I make them learn the waltz jump both ways. I figure they don't know they only need to do it their correct direction, and it's a good skill to have in your back pocket at competitions later on, right?

I think the kids who CAN do these well, having learned the skills at the appropriate development level, don't beg to do them in class. It's the strugglers who are weak that always want lessons on it.

As for your rant: do you sign her progress book? I would ask to see it and go over the skills that are lacking, so she understands that moving up means mastering those elements. Or, print out a "cheat sheet" from www.sk8stuff.com (http://www.sk8stuff.com) and study it with her. It helps break down the resistance to taking a step backwards.

[blue111moon]

re:hockey vs. Figure skates

I teach tots for two programs and frankly with four and five year olds I don't think it makes much difference which skates they start on - as long as the skates FIT. The hockey program kids almost all start in hockey skates, the figure skate kids almost all show up in rentals or cheapo Walmart plastic figure skates. I don't adjust my teaching to the skates, just to the direction of the program. At the fall-down-and-get-up stage it doesn't seem to matter much because the skills are the same no matter which skates they're wearing. They both learn at about the same rates. The only difference I see is that the hockey program allows newbies to use safety cones to get used to the ice and the figure skating program doesn't. I've noticed that the drop out rate for first-timers is higher in the no-cone program than in the pro-cone one.

I do have an adult male on skates for the first time who is having more trouble on his new hockey skates than he did in the rentals, but I think he'll be fine in a couple weeks. The hockey skates have edges that the rentals didn't. :)

[Isk8NYC]

re:hockey vs. Figure skates

I teach tots for two programs and frankly with four and five year olds I don't think it makes much difference which skates they start on - as long as the skates FIT. The hockey program kids almost all start in hockey skates, the figure skate kids almost all show up in rentals or cheapo Walmart plastic figure skates. I don't adjust my teaching to the skates, just to the direction of the program. At the fall-down-and-get-up stage it doesn't seem to matter much because the skills are the same no matter which skates they're wearing. They both learn at about the same rates. The only difference I see is that the hockey program allows newbies to use safety cones to get used to the ice and the figure skating program doesn't. I've noticed that the drop out rate for first-timers is higher in the no-cone program than in the pro-cone one.

I do have an adult male on skates for the first time who is having more trouble on his new hockey skates than he did in the rentals, but I think he'll be fine in a couple weeks. The hockey skates have edges that the rentals didn't. :)The cone artificially creates the hockey weight-forward approach we teach in hockey LTS regardless of what skate they use. The cones also help counter the the front-to-back rockoffs of hockey skates. It's also a *huge* crutch that many smaller kids wouldn't skate without. That's a hard transition if they're really dependent, because they've never learned to pick up their feet.

I could see why you're losing kids in the regular LTS, given the equipment available. Are your figure skating programs are struggling because you're losing your feeder pipeline early on? Would having a figure skate recommendation in your LTS flyer help? Not necessarily telling them what brand to buy, but what to look for in a good beginner skate.

[Erica Lee]

How do you adjust your teaching methods between hockey and regular figure skates?

We don't have a hockey-focused LTS program, all the kids are grouped together regardless of if they wear figure or hockey skates. So, adjusting is out of necessity. And it's not so much method as expectations and goals, but method can play a part too in very specific instruction.

And by that I mean, there are some skills in our program that are naturally more difficult for kids in hockey skates - so I wouldn't expect the same standard from them as I would the kids that use figure skates and plan to progress in skating. I always have the kids' end goals in mind. If they're going to want to be hockey players, speed, agility, etc, are good things to let them 'focus' on. If they're going to be figure skaters, they may be more interested in the spins and jumps, for example. This doesn't mean all kids don't learn and attempt all skills.. they do, but a kid in hockey skates doing a two foot spin or a waltz jump is never going to quite be able to do it properly... so I don't push them in those areas. There are areas where all skaters, regardless of type of skate or end goal, benefit from basic practice - stroking, crosscuts, stopping, balance, etc... so that's where the most time is spent in general.

We don't have rentals at our rink, so it's not practical to ask parents to buy new figure skates specifically so their kid can learn in them first, and then switch. Most boys would never want to wear figure skates either, nor can you readily find boys' figure skates. So it's just a basic reality of teaching LTS where I am.

[blue111moon]

I could see why you're losing kids in the regular LTS, given the equipment available. Are your figure skating programs are struggling because you're losing your feeder pipeline early on? Would having a figure skate recommendation in your LTS flyer help? Not necessarily telling them what brand to buy, but what to look for in a good beginner skate.

Neither program is struggling. The two programs are run by different groups - one by my skating club and one by a youth hockey league - so each program feeds the parent organization. Neither one has a high drop-out rate; it's just been my observance that the no-cone programs (and I've taught for several over the years) lose more of the never-been-on-ice-skates-before little ones than the pro-cone ones. The pro-cone program aims to get the cone kids off cones within three weeks so it's not as if the kids develop a deep-seated dependence on the cone. Also, if you insist that the kids keep their arms straight while holding onto the cone, it keeps them from the hunched-over hockey posture while they're learning to stand up and step forward. Holding onto a cone or not, all my kids do the same skills - markching, sliding, etc. I don't teach those skills any differently between programs.

And at that level, I don't worry about the finer points of posture and extension; I'm just trying to get the kids to stand up and move. By the end of the eight or ten week session, they move up to another class and I start with the newbies again. I did have one of the hockey coaches tell me once that he can always tell the boys who came through my class because they stand UP and point their toes. :) I don't teach that and I'm not partitcular good at toe-pointing myself so I don't know where they're getting it but it's fun to hear.

Our biggest competition for LTS now is coming from the rink's upper management who instituted their own non-affiliated non-sanctioned LTS program during prime-time on weekends before public skating. The instructors are rink employees getting paid minimum wage, the rink discounts the cost because they don't have to pay themselves for the ice time, and they offer discounts for the following public sessions as well. They do nothing to promote anything other than public skating. That, more than anything, has impacted all of the feeder programs in the rink, hockey and figure skating.

[Isk8NYC]

We have 1 or 2 LTS groups during our regular group lesson sessions that are hockey-focused. The USFSA Basic Skills curriculum includes four hockey levels. They have their own set of "test levels." The skills are a little different and the Hockey Clinic coaches are the usual instructors. Once they've finished the four hockey lessons, they're strong enough skaters to move into the Clinic program.

I guess a kid that's not ready to let go of the cone just repeats the initial lessons?

Hmmm. Not having rentals does limit your options. One of the Clubs I teach at has consignment used skates that they use for their group lessons. (decent figure and hockey skates) The rink HAS rental skates, but they close the shop during Club ice times. Seems to work out okay for beginners, sure keeps used skates from sitting in closets or landfills.

[Isk8NYC]

I have three private students (11-15 yrs old) that are working on their single jumps. Two have salchows plus "blink-and-you-miss-it" loops, the other student doesn't have anything but a salchow.

All three need to improve their control and positions. One actually told me he "didn't get it" when I told him to "check" before jumping. I dunno - they took lessons from other coaches before, they've probably just forgotten the term. (Hmmm, maybe the other coaches had a different term?) Without boring you with details, let's just say they never learned to jump in a controlled manner.

I've walked them through the correct techniques, worked on backspins (another weakness) and done various drills. Still, they're getting frustrated because they can't land the jumps when they "launch and pray." (We've all seen those jumps - arms over your head, free foot waaaay out to the side, and landing is a sideways BAM!)

New jump exercises and discussion ideas would be greatly appreciated. I know it's only been three weeks, but I think it's going to take a while until they've mastered the jumps.

[sk8nlizard]

I have a student that is having a really hard time getting over her right side on her axel. She has not landed it, but it is on the right foot, cleanly rotated most times, but every time she falls outside the circle. We have done lots of backspins, waltz loops, waltz-back spins, axel-backspins, etc. Any one else have any ideas? One of the main problems is we do not have a harness. Thanks

[Isk8NYC]

Without seeing the jump, I'm inclined to say she's leaning to the left and dropping her free hip/not transferring weight to the right side.

Can she do loop-loop combinations? (To do that, you really need to be over the right side and checked.) That would be a good drill to get the landings to "stick"

[sk8nlizard]

Yes she can do loop-loop combos. She is not transfering her weight to her right side. I guess I am asking for any more drills I can use to work with her. Without a harness it is hard to get her to get the feeling of being over her right side. She is eight, and the axel is a relatively new jump (she has been working on it since the beginning of September). Thanks

[Isk8NYC]

Half-axels would be good, ie. one-rotation jumps landing forward on two feet. Gliding to the RIGHT would force her to lean that way before landing.

Since she's little, she might like this:

Jump up on the box (right foot steps up and forward)
and slide down the pole (backspin position in the air)
then step on a stone (right toepick into the ice on landing)
and *kick* your left foot around. (Pull out into a landing position)

Make sure she keeps her hands to the right of her chest center, so the jump stays checked in the air.

[sk8nlizard]

Okay, I have another question. Same kid, same axel, new problem. Recently she has started not bringing her right leg through on the axel. She kind of just puts it right behind her left leg on the take off. It looks weird and very uncomfortable. This is clearly prohibiting her getting over to her right side. I need some ideas on how to fix this. On her axel prep, she brings her right leg through great, she can walk it through correctly as well so she know what she is SUPPOSED to do. She can also do the waltz-jump back spin correctly, waltz-loop, loop-loop, etc. Any ideas? Remember we don't have a harness. Thanks

[vesperholly]

Okay, I have another question. Same kid, same axel, new problem. Recently she has started not bringing her right leg through on the axel. She kind of just puts it right behind her left leg on the take off. It looks weird and very uncomfortable. This is clearly prohibiting her getting over to her right side. I need some ideas on how to fix this. On her axel prep, she brings her right leg through great, she can walk it through correctly as well so she know what she is SUPPOSED to do. She can also do the waltz-jump back spin correctly, waltz-loop, loop-loop, etc. Any ideas? Remember we don't have a harness. Thanks
I had this problem with my axel and completely reworked the technique. The three things that help the most were:

Keep my right shoulder checked strongly back on the take off. It's easier to kick through towards my left side when I am still going straight and not already turning on the edge.
Bend my free leg knee and bring it BACK and slightly up before kicking it through. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Bend my skating knee and stay down in the knee on the FO take off edge. This also helped me not to rush the takeoff.

[CanAmSk8ter]

You're preaching to the choir. I constantly get nagged "When are we going to work on waltz jumps? Are waltz jumps in this level?"
WHY DO THEY KNOW WHAT A WALTZ JUMP IS???
This is always from skaters that can't hold a back edge or control their free foot.

Recently, one of my favorite B4/5 classes asked about waltz jumps.
I called their bluff and said "Show me what you've got."

Every.single.one.did.the.waltz.jump.badly.AND.oppo site.their.spin.direction.

I think the kids who CAN do these well, having learned the skills at the appropriate development level, don't beg to do them in class. It's the strugglers who are weak that always want lessons on it.

Are you sure you don't teach at my rink? ;)

As for your rant: do you sign her progress book? I would ask to see it and go over the skills that are lacking, so she understands that moving up means mastering those elements. Or, print out a "cheat sheet" from www.sk8stuff.com (http://www.sk8stuff.com) and study it with her. It helps break down the resistance to taking a step backwards.

I forgot I had even posted this. She made a huge amount of progress this session. I passed her on Basic 6 and even checked off a couple of Basic 7 elements (not everything). She's been doing the Bridge program at another local rink (with an instructor I had in learn-to-skate!) and I can tell they've been pushing basics. The instructor she has is very good about that kind of stuff.

My other class, well, that's another story. I had a skater testing for Basic 5 whom I would not have passed had she been testing Basic 4. :frus: I found like two elements I could justify passing her on- I didn't want to just hand her a test sheet with nothing checked off- and I made some strong notes about what needed more work on Basic 4. Actually, I had to do that with several of them, because three others would have been borderline on Basic 4, including one who's technically in Basic 6. 8O (This is the same kid who wanted to know when we learn the spirals where you hold you leg up behind you with your hand- apparently her private coach has been doing catch-foot spirals with her. Can't be bothered to get her to stop toe-pushing her crossovers, though...) Several of them have joined a Beginner synchro team, and I know the coaches will have them working on basics a lot, so I'm confident that they'll catch up.

[Isk8NYC]

I've gotten in the habit of playing "Show Me" on the first class of each group lesson session. I just run through all of the elements on the test BELOW the one I'm allegedly teaching. (Print out a cheat sheet, so you know what's on the different levels.)

Toe pushing crossovers. Sigh.

I have an 11-year old with whom I worked really hard to stop the toe pushing. I got her to the point of having a reasonable amount of knee bend. Even a bit of outside edges.
Started working on one-foot glides and crossovers and BAM!
She now has toe pushes on everything and she can't hold an outside edge for beans.
Maybe she's just been having a rough week or two. (She definitely grew a bit) Or MAYBE her skates are too dull/sharp....

Here's an odd question: how do you handle argumentative students? I have two in particular that are getting on my last nerve. The first one is the waltz jump queen. (Who, btw, told me that she can't do a snowplow stop. :roll: ) The WJQ will only do (poor) inside three-turns because she can't hold an outside edge. She cheats at all of the exercises, like outside edge glides (she does them on her inside edges as soon as I'm not looking) and sulks if anyone masters something that she can't even fake well. It's becoming a distraction for the other skaters. I'm going to leave her in the level with a note that she needs remedial work.

The second one talks back and tells me I'm wrong when I try to correct her posture or checks. For example, "You're breaking at the waist." results in "No, I'm not." (Called her bluff this week and video'ed her, reviewing it frame-by-frame.) This week's lesson ended with her absolute REFUSAL to work on spirals because "they're boring." I told her too bad, they're part of everyone's skating and she'd better learn to accept that fact. I got so annoyed :twisted: , I told her she can always find someone else if she's unhappy with me as her coach.

The group student is an issue because I feel like she's challenging me in front of my other students in the group.
The private student I could walk away from but, I really like the parents and I teach her sibling with little/no problem.
(Although that one's an envelope-pusher, too.)

[vesperholly]

Toe pushing - can she reasonably point her foot in the boots? Not a full on Sasha Cohen point, but at least angle it a little bit. I tell students to think of their skate like a hand pointing - point to the tracing on the ice with your toe, like "see, here's my edge." Repetition of standing on one leg and pointing, and then one-foot glides with a point helps.

OK, wow, what BRATS. :roll:

The first student sounds like an attention whore - the second you walk away, she does it wrong so you'll come back. Maybe if you set a few minutes aside just for her to show you what she's worked on? Give her some undivided attention and let her know she's only getting a little bit so she'd better impress you.

I would tell the know-it-all that if she really knows what she's doing, why isn't she the coach? Maybe a little "left behind" tactic would work: "If you don't work on your spirals, I can't pass you on the test, and all your friends will pass and be in a different class." Or maybe a little reverse psychology, since she seems to be a contrarian personality: "*sigh* Yup, you're right, you'll never be able to do a good spiral, so let's work on other things." I've found that begging and pleading just won't work sometimes, it's when you turn your back that they will do an element.

Good luck! :giveup:

[Isk8NYC]

I'm going to try the "Show Me!" time with her next week. Thanks for the suggestion.

Ironically, the second student's major complaint is that I'm NEVER watching when she does it perfectly. (Is it my fault that she starts before I'm watching her? Once she b****ed about this when I was distracted by getting out of the pairs team's way to save my life!

The reality is that a skater never does it perfectly, period. You can always do better, but rarely when the coach is watching. (Don't we all go through that as skaters?) She's a bit of an attention begger during groups, too. (I've had her as my private student longer than as a group student.) I just let her sulk on the side now and move the other kids over to work on the next element. She'll do something else and work her way over to us, then rejoin the class when she's ready. Or not. Maybe I should make a remark about her parents wasting money on group lessons?

Reverse psychology, that's a good idea. I'm going to try it with her. (Worked on my daughter last week.)

[frvanilla]

Hello all! After taking the summer off the ice, I'm finally back. Nothing really worth to tell as of now, I don't want to start complaining. :halo:

I promised myself to spend less time on the ice and focus on school (this is my last year), but it seems like I'm working more than I want to. I guess I have to give up something, like stopping myself from using the internet! :giveup:

[Isk8NYC]

Welcome back, frvanilla!

I taught my toe pusher earlier this week and she was much better. I used the verbal cue of "turn your laces to the side before you push." That seemed to click with her this week. She managed some edges as well, which made the three-turn exercises much easier. I told her it would really help if she came and practiced on her own at least once a week. She takes her 30min lesson, then plays with her brother for 20 minutes, then she's done! Doesn't skate any other days. I "invited" her to come skating on Sundays.

Know what's interesting? She's jealous of skaters doing spins and jumps that are her age or younger. I'm using that to my advantage, of course! :twisted:

[frvanilla]

Isk8NYC,
Thank you!


A girl's mother told another coach that her daughter felt boring in lesson because we were working on backward skating and stroking and these are similar elements to the previous level (but with different expectations). It's my first time doing real work with this group. They are relatively (but equally) weak for their level, and 10 out of 10 kids in my group are toe pushers. May be that's why the girl felt we were not working on new stuff (because we can't). :??

I guess next week I got to come up with some new challenges, such as working on backward circle pumps to aid those backward skating.

At the end of today, please let me yell "No more toe pushing kids!!!" Argh! :frus:

[Isk8NYC]

The first student sounds like an attention whore - the second you walk away, she does it wrong so you'll come back. Maybe if you set a few minutes aside just for her to show you what she's worked on? Give her some undivided attention and let her know she's only getting a little bit so she'd better impress you.
Last week's lesson was going well; I did the "Show Me!" first, so everyone was psyched. We started working on one of my exercises where the skaters hold an edge and l-e-a-n into the circle and (on one foot) ride the edge in a loop from outside to inside and back outside again.

The attention-seeking student just kept doing forward crossovers. I tried calling out the instructions loudly for everyone. I might as well have been talking to the wall. I noticed the crossovers again as I was correcting another girl. I finished my correction and started off to catch up the little lost lamb and put her on the right track. Before I took a step, she tripped on her toepick and belly-whopped onto the ice. I helped her up, she was crying, but didn't want to leave the ice when I called over a helper. She basically sulked for the remainder of the lesson, complaining whenever I tried to engage her in the group. ("I CAN'T do snowplow stops." "I don't do that; I do THIS instead.")

I finally had enough and I told her (nicely) that, if she re-registers for the next class session, she should have her father request another instructor's group since she doesn't seem to be enjoying my class. Quite a wakeup call for her, maybe she's afraid the father would get mad at her? She apologized and actually tried half-heartedly to do what I was telling her to do.

While I am NOT interested in her as a private student, I think she would probably do better in private lessons since she wouldn't be able to wander off and she would get the attention she desires. She definitely needs some remedial instruction in the basics. Maybe I'll ask the Director to discuss it with the parents...

[CanAmSk8ter]

I've had to tell a couple of young skaters (4/5 y.o.) that they need to work on what the rest of the group is working on, or they'll have to get off the ice. It's always a last resort- making sure the parents are aware of the "listening issue", giving multiple verbal cues, and even a physical interruption of what they're doing (hand to the shoulder, "so-and-so, we're doing snowplow stops now, I need to see yours") all come first, but if they don't work I don't hesitate to go to, "We're doing snowplow stops right now. I need you to do your snowplow stops with us, or you'll have to get off the ice." (This works better if the child wants to skate, but the fear of having to explain to Mom or Dad why they were removed from a lesson can sometimes convince even a reluctant skater to participate).

Isk8NY, how far are you into this set of lessons? Would it be worth giving each skater a "mid-term grade" type of thing, letting them know what's going well and what needs work and just give the waltz jump queen a "NI" on any of the stuff she won't show you or do during class (as well as anything she really can't do, of course). That would send her a definite message that at the rate she's going she won't pass the level. You could leave a space for comments and make a note about how her attitude is keeping her from learning some of the elements.

As for the private student, what level is she? Is she at the point where you could start explaining MITF to her and pointing out that every skater has to master them if they want to take their freestyle tests? She'll have to do spirals on pre-pre moves.

[Isk8NYC]

This series of lessons ends next week, so the group student *may* have another instructor next session. (Although our school likes to try and keep the group kids together, so no one feels "demoted" to another coach.) If I have her in my group again next session, I'm going to have to catch her early and lay down what I expect of her in class. In looking at my attendance sheet, she is absent every third or fourth class; maybe that's why she's lost when the group starts working on things - she may have missed that lesson.

The private student who hates spirals and footwork has already passed Pre-Prel MITF under another coach. She and I had a private conversation last week, I guess her first coach didn't really explain the testing well. For some odd reason, she thought she was done with MITF forever! She takes a group MITF class, so she didn't want to "waste" private lesson time on field moves. That'll be resolved next week when we start working on a new program. (stares into crystal ball) I see lots of connecting steps and spirals in her future ... :twisted:

[frvanilla]

A question off the top of my mind for all coaches here:

At my rink, we are doing a lot of forward stroking for the LTS aduts. I noticed a problem for several of the LTS adults. When they skate forward, they would push off with one foot, and then glide with their feet placed unevenly, before pushing off with the other.

Instead of gliding with their feet close together like this:
| |
L R

They glided with with one foot slightly in front of the other like this:
l l
L R

This has almost make it to my list of the "almost unfixable" like the "skaters' shuffling syndrom". Anyone knows why and has any tips for it?

[renatele]

At my rink, we are doing a lot of forward stroking for the LTS aduts. I noticed a problem for several of the LTS adults. When they skate forward, they would push off with one foot, and then glide with their feet placed unevenly, before pushing off with the other.

Not a coach, but I've noticed my mother and other adults doing this. In my mother's case, she would push off with the left foot, and that would be the foot in the front - after thinking about it, I realized that 1) her right foot is dominant, and she is more comfortable keeping her weight on it 2) she has broken left ankle twice, and this reinforces the point #1.

If you look closely, it will be quite clear that the skater in question doesn't put much weight at the foot that is in front. I'm quite sure that the skater would also not hold the glide on the foot that is always in front - ex. if it's left foot, he/she would be unable to hold left glide: the weight would be too much to the right, forcing the skater to put the right foot down.

No good ideas on how to fix it - I just explained to my mother that the weight HAS to be shifted to the foot that is on the ice (in stroking), reinforced it at the boards, etc.

[Isk8NYC]

A lot of kids who ride scooters on one side only struggle to keep their feet even and push with alternating feet. I do a warmup drill where they stroke around the circle using only the "outside" foot. I emphasize good pushes from behind the skating foot and insist that they keep the "inside" foot on the ice.

I've been doing an unofficial survey for some time now and the unevens are usually scooter riders or have some other reason (as Renatele points out) for favoring one foot.

The good part is that, if they can keep their feet uneven, back crossovers can be that much easier.