train hard/ train smart/listen to body, etc......

[phoenix]

Thought I'd share this w/ the group & see what others have learned.....

As most of you know, I'm only working on dance. Much of my training/lessons is doing exercises (think moves in the field type stuff, only more 'dancey'), many of which are focusing on building strength & more knee bend. When I'm doing the simpler stuff, the focus is on getting better extension/higher free leg/toe point/turnout, etc. In other words, it's all really hard! Never a moment when you can relax into a position.

I currently skate 6 days a week (2 of those are in lessons). I pretty much do the same things every time I skate.... However, I notice that any time I skate really hard on a given day, the next day I'm a bit stiff & sore. And I typically don't skate as well the next day. This is *most* noticeable when I skate on Sunday late afternoon/early evening, and then again early Monday morning. Monday mornings are often a useless exercise for me--I never, ever skate well.

I've been thinking all along that this had to do w/ my need for more strength, and it would improve as I got stronger. However, though I can see my strength improving, the stiffness/soreness remains. So maybe I'm just getting old. :roll:

I'm starting to think I should consciously alternate 'light days' and 'hard days', and maybe even drop to 5 days skating/2 days off. In other words, work with my body instead of fighting it.....but then would that un-do the strength training that I need to progress with? And if I do a 'light day', should that be less strenuous stuff (not even sure what that would be), or just skate for a shorter amount of time? I typically skate for an hour to an hour & a half. So a light day could be 30-45 minutes.

Any thoughts/opinions/commiserations are appreciated! :!:

[doubletoe]

Absolutely! And if you aren't already doing it, make sure you stretch out every muscle in your body after you skate. That's how I keep from being sore every day.

I skate an hour on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, 2 hours on Fridays and 2-3 hours on Sundays. I always take both Saturday and Monday off to give myself a rest between my more intense days and my lighter days. Sometimes I take Thursdays off, too, and I find that I tend to skate better on Fridays and don't really suffer for having taken one more day off. Also, Tuesdays are moves-in-the-field only. No jumps or spins or skating my program.

[Kelli]

Muscles are built during rest, not during activity. Any stress on the muscle causes minor muscle tears, and when these tears heal during rest, you get stronger (current research suggests that these tears are the cause of DOMS - delayed onset muscle soreness - and stretching does not reduce DOMS). Most serious runners strongly believe in alternating hard and easy days, either by reducing time, reducing intensity, or both. I'm not sure how to apply reduced intensity, so less time might be the answer.

Personally, I always found that I could skate well for two or three days in a row, but no more than that. So I take two days off from skating - Wednesday and Saturday. I do a fair amount of off ice training in the gym, and I make sure to do my hard workouts on Tuesdays and Fridays, so I have a day to recover (and definitely not the day before a lesson!). Maybe try keeping a journal for a month, recording skating time, sleeping time, other activity, and how you felt skating. Vary your skating days, and see what leads to the best result. Honestly, we can all talk all we want, but everyone's body is different, and it's really a matter of tinkering with your schedule to see what works best for you.

[CFP]

phonenix,, what other sports do you do other than skate?
sometimes it gives you perspective to do other things for a few days, then skate.
like kelli,, i spend alot of time lifting weights along with 'gymnastic' and plyometric training. but i also mt. bike, climb and backpack/hike......all great things for the legs, but trains them a little differently.
however, i have very LITTLE stamina!! i hate cardio!!:roll: ---but skating really doesn't 'wind' me. i've seen your video,,i don't do as many consecutive moves as you either,,,:)

i laughed when you commented on learning to point your toes!! uh,, i do that TOO much,,without even thinking of it,,, hence, my problems with forward crossovers!:frus: [ hee hee]

i don't know if this will appeal to you, but here's an idea regarding stretching.
i have climbing aid-ladders suspended from the beams in my house,,,two of them about 4 feet apart,,,,there's about 6 rungs on each one. these things are fantastic for hanging and stretching from. if interested, pm me and i'll send some stills so you can see what i mean. i'm a 'cirque du soliel' wanna-be,, so i've devised all sorts of ways to stretch for extention.:)

[Hannah]

To add to what Kelli said- Rest (or lighter days) is important! In swimming (a sport I'm a lot more familiar with) resting for bits of time during your workout is really necessary for improvement, and then there is an "intensity arc" for each workout day, each week, even over seasons, taking into account competitions and the like. Never is a swimmer working out at the same intensity for long periods of time.

So to me, it would make sense to train lighter if your body is tired. The only problem with this is when someone is lazy (I highly doubt you fall in this category!!)- I was lazy at swimming because it is pretty much the most boring sport EVER. :lol:

[Rusty Blades]

I have found pretty much the same thing.

When I first started back at skating, I skated Saturday, Sunday, and Tuesday and it worked ok but I wasn't really working hard at that point (except to try to stand up!) But, like Doubletoe, I skated 2 hours each on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday this summer and found 22 hours is not sufficient rest to fully recover between sessions since skating has become more demanding. Since I was strongest on the first session of the week, that's when I would work on the power and strength stuff (always in the second hour!) and do the finness stuff for the other two days. I am hoping this will improve as time goes on 'cause I intend to be skating 6 days a week by December.

Old? I'm 57. How old are you? ;)

[sk8pics]

I agree with a lot of what's been said. Whenever I've been involved in any sport seriously, I have always made sure to have some light days. I skate 5 days a week, but not 5 in a row, and some days I only do 40 minutes, while other days it is 80 or 90 minutes.

For anyone who's interested, there's a book out called Younger Next Year for Women. They also have a website (www.youngernextyear.com). They talk quite a bit about building muscle, the importance of rest in between for recovery, and a lot about training at different levels of your max heart rate in order to accomplish different things. A lot of it I already knew, but I like their rather holistic approach. I think their motto is: Aging is required but decay is optional!

[Skate@Delaware]

I've found sometimes that quality is more important than quantity....and every now and again I even bail on skating and take a down day. For my body and for my mind.

I have the conditioning for skaters book by Poe and it talks about the peaking of your training for competitions, which is very important. You also have to add in proper nutrition and rest, as well as the mental aspect. Add to that the fact that most of us work and manage households and families....that's a lot on our plates!!!

[doubletoe]

Muscles are built during rest, not during activity. Any stress on the muscle causes minor muscle tears, and when these tears heal during rest, you get stronger (current research suggests that these tears are the cause of DOMS - delayed onset muscle soreness - and stretching does not reduce DOMS).

Yes, that is true. I also feel stronger and skate better when I take a day off every 2-3 days. From experience, I've figured out what my own limits are, so now I have rules for myself that I always follow even if I think I feel fine:
(1) Never skate more than 3 hours at a time,
(2) Never skate more than 4 days in a row and never jump more than 3 days in a row (e.g., 3 days of FS and 1 day of MIF is okay)
(3) Never skate more than 3 hours in any 2-day period.

But I think there are different types and causes of muscle soreness/stiffness, and I definitely find that my muscles are always stiff if I don't stretch after skating, whereas they are only occasionally stiff if I do stretch afterwards. So I agree with taking a day off every 2-3 days, but I think it is also important to stretch after you skate. The other advantage to stretching is that your muscles will pull less on your joints if you stretch them instead of letting them tightening up. For example, my PT told me my quads tend to pull unevenly on my knees and make me prone to knee problems, so I need to stretch them out often.

[icedancer2]

I keep thinking that you need to vary your routine also -- do you do Moves? Figures?

I know that thing about only doing dance -- I did that for years (I think I am quite a bit older than you) -- when I was in my mid to late thirties I would skate 4-5 days a week just doing dance -- working on all of that line/extension/point/strength stuff. I had a lesson late Sunday evening (like 10 o'clock) and would get up the next morning to skate everything that was in my lesson. I remember sometimes it would be difficult to do that.

Now at 52 I still skate the same 4-5 days a week, but I usually do about 15-20 minutes of figures (really helps with the strength and finishing of the moves) about 30-40 minutes and moves and the rest on the dances that I am working on. I don't know if I am a better skater now but I think I know more because of the variation of the routine.

On the other hand, there are some dance moves that I have trouble with now that I never used to, so it's always good to take some time to re-visit those -- like Rocker Foxtrot Mohawk and Blues Choktaw -- these sometimes come and go and then I have to work on them for a while -- plus they come in handy for other things (like Starlight Waltz Mohawk and Killian Choctaws:?? ).

Anyway, good luck. I feel your pain, as it were. It's okay to have a "low" day, as it were, at least you have your feet on the ice!! (and that ultimately is the best part!!)

[Sonic]

For me, especially at the moment with the right foot still playing up, getting sufficient rest between sessions is important.

For example, on Monday I was so exhilerated to have got my jumps back I think I overdid them a bit, and as a result foot was twinging on Tuesday morning. It was better by the end of the day, I really wanted to go to the Tuesday evening session, but decided to play safe and give it a rest, so it would recover for my ice dance lesson this morning.

I think I made the right decision, because the foot is okayish again. I laid off jumps completely this morning - I think the only way I'm going to be able to do them is practice on alternate sessions so as not to put too much pressure on the foot. This is frustrating, as the jumps seriously need a lot of work, but practising them a couple of tiimes a week is better than nothing I guess.

S xxx