Worst Jump: Salchow

[miraclegro]

Okay, i have all my single jumps,and have had them for quite some time. Problem is: My salchow doesn't seem to have any height whatsoever.

It looks downright pitiful on video. Any tips?

thanks....

[doubletoe]

I think most of the time when people have trouble getting height on their salchows, it's because they are taking off from the flat of the blade instead of rolling up onto the toe and springing up off the toepick. That either happens because you just aren't focusing on pointing your toe as you take off, or because your free leg is too far behind you, your torso is pitched forward and you aren't lined up over your hips, making it hard to take off straight up off the toe.

Try to keep your free leg behind you until it's time to take off, but keep it a little closer to your skating leg as you're on your takeoff edge. On the takeoff edge, just glide on the back inside edge and try to feel like you are lined up and squared right over your hips. As you feel the edge come to an end, bend and spring up straight up off your toepick, pointing the toe hard and focusing on going up instead of out.

[froggy]

my coach tells me to bend the knee deeply and and try to feel your ankle actually fall inwards against your boot, sometimes i visualize that im going to jump onto a step that is in back of me, that helps me get some lift also from my right side, i think up, back around, it helps me to think back that way i dont start making those awful looking spinny salchows.

good luck!!
my salchows come and go they have yet to be consistent :giveup:

[vesperholly]

I was able to do some very good double sals today by concentrating on a hard check with the left side and especially, driving my right knee/thigh up. (CCW)

[ouijaouija]

in the salchow you don't use your toepick do you, just the edge?

[SkatingOnClouds]

All jumps take off from the toe-pick, it is the last thing to leave the ice, but it is only momentary, (or should be) with no big scrape.

I find I am concentrating so hard on staying on an inside edge, checking, etc, that I forget to bend my knee enough, so there isn't any spring from my take off leg.

One question, I notice people saying to keep the free leg close to the skating leg. I thought there had to be more of a sweeping action from the free leg, sweeping out and around before crossing the body.
Should I aim to keep it closer to my skating leg?

[VegasGirl]

I think most of the time when people have trouble getting height on their salchows, it's because they are taking off from the flat of the blade instead of rolling up onto the toe and springing up off the toepick.

I'm with Ouijaouija on this one... the Salchow is an edge jump not a toe jump and thus take off should be from the edge (I guess that's what you meant by flat) not the pick:

It is an edge jump which takes off from a LBI edge, turns a full revolution, and lands on the RBO edge. It is most commonly entered from backwards crossovers with a step-forward onto a LFO edge. The skater then does an LFO 3-turn so that he is skating on a LBI edge. At this point, the skater usually executes a strong “check” for stability, with the right arm extended behind and the left arm extended forward. The free leg (right leg) is held in the air, behind and to the right of the skater. The skater swings the free leg and arm forward, initiating a spinning action, and leaps into the air.
http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_salchow.htm

[Hannahclear]

When you are on that left back inside edge after the 3 turn, you need to be so secure. You need to be able to hold that forever if you had to. The right leg should be to the side, extended and ready to sweep through. Without a strong left side check, you can't generate power. I had a coach a couple of summers ago who made me just hold that edge forever. We'd do that for at 10 minutes before trying the jump. It really did help me.

[Sonic]

I have a bit of a mental block when it comes to Salchows, mine were really pathetic.

They're still not great (or at least, they weren't the last time I tried, about 3 weeks ago), but I found it helpful to think of them as kinda glorified waltz jumps - ie tell yourself you're doing a waltz jump with a bit more rotation.

s xxx

[vesperholly]

I'm with Ouijaouija on this one... the Salchow is an edge jump not a toe jump and thus take off should be from the edge (I guess that's what you meant by flat) not the pick:

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_salchow.htm
Yes, it's an edge jump, but all edge jumps ROLL up toward the toe pick and take off from a sweet spot just behind it. If you tried to take off from your whole blade, you're not going to be able to jump. ALL edge jumps spring off the toe pick.

Here's a freeze-frame of Ryan Jahnke's salchow takeoff. I picked Jahnke because he has excellent technique on his jump. See how his skating foot is NOT on the flat of the blade, but closer to the toe pick?

http://users.adelphia.net/~jdelmar/images/jahnkesal.jpg

Here's another clearer one of Matt Savoie, who also has excellent technique:

http://users.adelphia.net/~jdelmar/images/savoiesal.jpg

[doubletoe]

I'm with Ouijaouija on this one... the Salchow is an edge jump not a toe jump and thus take off should be from the edge (I guess that's what you meant by flat) not the pick:

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_salchow.htm

The difference between an edge jump and a toe jump is that edge jumps do not have a toe assist from the other foot. "Edge jump" does not mean the edge of your blade is supposed to be the last part of the blade to leave the ice. With every edge jump--the axel, the loop and the salchow, the toepick MUST be the last thing that leaves the ice if you want the jump to send you UP off the ice, not just across the ice. I could never land my axel or double salchow if I didn't roll up onto the toepick on takeoff (not to mention my coach would scream at me, since he has drilled this into me so many times). I would highly recommend watching a video of a well-executed double or triple salchow frame-by-frame and paying special attention to how the blade leaves the ice. It's impossible to get any height if you try to jump off the flat of your foot.

[doubletoe]

Just saw Vesperholly's response. Yes, to clarify, it is the bottom pick of the toepick--just in front of the sweet spot-- that leaves the ice last. You don't roll all the way up onto the master pick. Just think of pointing your toes on takeoff and going straight up and you'll be doing it right.

[doubletoe]

I find I am concentrating so hard on staying on an inside edge, checking, etc, that I forget to bend my knee enough, so there isn't any spring from my take off leg.

One question, I notice people saying to keep the free leg close to the skating leg. I thought there had to be more of a sweeping action from the free leg, sweeping out and around before crossing the body.
Should I aim to keep it closer to my skating leg?

The reason you may want to keep the free leg a little closer to the skating leg on your takeoff edge is that if you extend it way behind you like a landing edge position, it will make your upper body tilt forward to compensate, and then you won't be lined up right over your hips. Unless you are squared over your hips, it's hard to take off straight up. You'll get less spring and have less control in the air and on your landing.
Also, you don't want to bend your knee that deeply on the entrance to the 3-turn, but you do want to bend deeply for a second just before takeoff so that you have something to spring up off of. If you bend deeply too early on the 3-turn exit, it can make you curl your takeoff edge too much. For the same reason (i.e., staying checked and in control) you want to make sure you have your free leg behind you on the 3-turn exit, not out to the side, even though you aren't extending the leg very far behind you. I hope this all makes sense. :p

[skatingdoris]

As much as I hate to open a can of worms here :halo: during a visit to our rink by Robin Cousins he asked what edge the salchow took off from, one of the coaches answered saying it was a LBI edge, we were then told that this was wrong and that in fact it is a LFI edge because you do half a rotation before your blade actually leaves the ice and therefore the salchow is in fact only half a rotation, double one and a half etc.

I was just wondering what peoples opinions on this were?

[LilJen]

Ermmm, interesting, skatingdoris. Is Cousins advocating a 1/2 rotation cheat before leaving the ice?? If so, eek!! I always liked his skating a lot but now??? Dunno. . .

I like the screenshots of good technique (actually the one of Jahnke looks like he's about to land). Anyone have some of bad technique? (Not that I've actually learned a salchow yet or anything, but it is on my to-learn list for the next, oh, year or so.)

[renatele]

As much as I hate to open a can of worms here :halo: during a visit to our rink by Robin Cousins he asked what edge the salchow took off from, one of the coaches answered saying it was a LBI edge, we were then told that this was wrong and that in fact it is a LFI edge because you do half a rotation before your blade actually leaves the ice and therefore the salchow is in fact only half a rotation, double one and a half etc.

I was just wondering what peoples opinions on this were?

As far as I'm aware, LFI (CCW) is an incorrect answer as well - do you do a rocker or counter at the end of salchow prep? In a forward spin, you do way more than half a rotation (hopefully :twisted: ), yet you are still traveling on a BI edge.

As Liz Manley explained at adult edge workshop last year, yes, the BI edge has to come around about 1/4 of a circle, and by the time the toepick leaves the ice, the skater is indeed facing forward, thus completing the 1/2 rotation on the ice (and vesperholly's posted freeze-frames would show that very clearly if we could see the ice tracings well). There should be a "check-mark" at the end of the BI edge, where a skater rolls off from the edge onto the toepick. If one would extend it, the BI edge and "check-mark" would look like a BI-3 tracing, but the take-off has to happen before the full 3-turn happens.

Same technique is taught by my coach... oh, and I don't have Petkevich's book anywhere closeby right now, but I'm pretty sure that's how he explains salchow, too.

[2loop2loop]

As much as I hate to open a can of worms here :halo: during a visit to our rink by Robin Cousins he asked what edge the salchow took off from, one of the coaches answered saying it was a LBI edge, we were then told that this was wrong and that in fact it is a LFI edge because you do half a rotation before your blade actually leaves the ice and therefore the salchow is in fact only half a rotation, double one and a half etc.

I was just wondering what peoples opinions on this were?

He was probably being difficult. Robin Cousins can be cranky!

John

[Hannahclear]

Part of the rotation occurs on the ice for most of the jumps, that's how my coach explains it too.

[doubletoe]

Technically, that's true of all jumps (I have spent way too much time watching video clips of top skaters' jump takeoffs in slow motion just to prove it to myself). But you can't afford to let yourself acknowledge that fact or else you'll start cheating the takeoffs even more than the "correct" amount of cheat, LOL!

[Hannahclear]

Absolutely. Best not to think about it when you skate.

[miraclegro]

Thanks for all the tips, ya'll. it's a lot to think about. Will have to experiment a little! I definitely can see why one would hold the back edge for a while in practice for the takeoff! I know i have seen people do it just from the back edge and not do the 3-turn and i thought it was difficult. but now i know why it is a good thing to try!

[beachbabe]

I'm with Ouijaouija on this one... the Salchow is an edge jump not a toe jump and thus take off should be from the edge (I guess that's what you meant by flat) not the pick:

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_salchow.htm


what makes an edge jump an edge jump, is just the fact that there is no toe assist.


Every jump, rolls on to the toepick slightly before takeoff or there would be no jump. Thats how you get the spring to get height and rotation.


An axel is an edge jump too, but everyone knows the toepick is the last thing to leave the ice before you jump because you roll the foot forward as you jump.

[Sonic]

As much as I hate to open a can of worms here :halo: during a visit to our rink by Robin Cousins he asked what edge the salchow took off from, one of the coaches answered saying it was a LBI edge, we were then told that this was wrong and that in fact it is a LFI edge because you do half a rotation before your blade actually leaves the ice and therefore the salchow is in fact only half a rotation, double one and a half etc.

I was just wondering what peoples opinions on this were?

Now this is a really good point.

I'd always thought that you took off from backwards, but when one of our coaches was teaching the Salchow in the group lessons she taught it exactly as described above.

I'm wondering if it's like the toe-loop (when you start you technically do a waltz jump off your toepick rather than a full rotation), a kinda 'beginner's'
Salchow?

Incidentally, I've always been taught that with edge jumps you definitely need to take off towards the toe as it's almost impossible anyway from the flat of the blade.

S xxx

[doubletoe]

There are two ways to turn on your takeoff toe: One way is pivoting forward on the toe and opening out the left hip and shoulder to face forward on takeoff (assuming a left foot CCW takeoff). That's a no-no.
The other way is keeping your hips closed and your body facing backwards but starting the rotation on takeoff by turning your right hip in and bringing the free leg around in the direction of rotation. This is something you pretty much have to do, especially if you're going to do a double or triple.

[Skate@Delaware]

My (new) coach has spent all of last year correcting any "waltzing" I was taught by my previous coach (for the toe-loop...I never quite got the salchow). In my humble and still-inexperienced opinion, I'd rather learn a jump the harder-more correct advanced way than the "beginner-waltzy-cheated" way. But that's just me because I have a hard time un-learning bad habits.:frus:

[4rkidz]

I completely agree with skate@delaware.. I know from first hand experience with my daughter who never did get it right and had a clean double lutz before a clean salchow - all because of doing her single's wrong.. so take the time and learn it properly if you want to do doubles or triples..

[flo]

I actually really like salchows. It may have been covered, but one of the best things to do for a good salchow is have a good three turn into it - solid and under control with a strong back inside edge. I have my kids hold the edge as long as they can, then jump.

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm with Flo on this one....after not being able to do it (for over a year), it is my best jump (as long as I have a strong check and really hold it before jumping). And when I'm not being lazy I can get decent height on this jump. Now if my toe-loop was only as nice!

[xeo]

He was probably being difficult. Robin Cousins can be cranky!

John

Cousins was right. However, you don't think about doing that. If you have a good salch it will just happen on its own