IJS or no IJS?

[LWalsh]

I am a little confused about the recent WBP requirements. I am Silver FS level. If they are only using IJS for Masters and Gold at Nat's & international comps, then we shouldn't be designing our programs around IJS. Correct? I guess I'm asking because I'm seeing a lot of discussion on these boards about following the new requirements and I assume not everyone is heading to Germany so....

So I'm wondering are we supposed to follow the well balanced program requirements even though we'll be judged on the old system?

I am Confused

Lwalsh

[rlichtefeld]

Right now, the best thing to do is read the announcement of the individual competition.

It will either give specifics or reference the rulebook.

Rob

[blue111moon]

The Well-balanced program requirements apply regardless of the scoring system used to judge them.

[Mrs Redboots]

The Well-balanced program requirements apply regardless of the scoring system used to judge them.But, interestingly, at the Bracknell Adult Open (judged on the RJS), it was fairly obvious whose programme had been choreographed for the NJS, and whose hadn't! If in doubt, get it choreographed to be performed under the NJS.

Am I the only person who keeps reading "WBP" as "WPB"?!!!! Which is where all our old papers need to go....

[TreSk8sAZ]

Okay, this has been bothering me with my girls, as well as my own program. Personally, I think it's an OF COURSE you design your program around the NJS, regardless of whether your level is using it or not. The judges have been training on the new system for a year, at least. They're using it at the same competition you'll be competing at. It's not like they can just turn it off in their heads regarding transitions and spins and such. We had a comp just last weekend, and even the pre-pre and pre girls were doing harder transitions and variations on spins. While they weren't under the new system, those coaches who had transitioned their girls over to thinking that way did much better than those who had not put any NJS elements in their programs at all. No, if you aren't under the NJS, you don't have to follow every single guideline and worry about how many points you're going to get. But at the same time, a general knowledge and awareness that judges are using the NJS at other levels and it WILL influence their judging at the lower levels, you might as well start getting ready to use it by following at least some of the suggestions for the NJS programs.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just sick of seeing girls place last because their coaches haven't taken into consideration AT ALL the NJS regarding transitions and WBP requirements for their level... even when they aren't using the NJS.

[LoopLoop]

Personally, I think it's an OF COURSE you design your program around the NJS, regardless of whether your level is using it or not. The judges have been training on the new system for a year, at least. They're using it at the same competition you'll be competing at. It's not like they can just turn it off in their heads regarding transitions and spins and such.
One of my coaches said the same thing to me a couple of weeks ago. Every judge he's spoken with this year (and there are a lot, he does a lot of seminars, etc.) has said that no matter what system is being used for the judging, they are all THINKING in IJS terms. So, even if the competition is being conducted under 6.0 and the judges are ranking skaters with ordinals rather than assigning GOEs to individual elements, they are evaluating and ranking the skaters via IJS principles. In other words, they're watching and judging everything through an IJS prism now, so we should start incorporating it into our skating no matter the judging system at any given event.

[TimDavidSkate]

I'd say yes. So I will know what to improve upon. I can study how judges think when my elements are dissected. I already know how much my TES planned score will be, I'm just wondering if I am able to reach that or go beyond :halo:

[doubletoe]

As another poster mentioned, the well-balanced program rules are still in effect even if your event is judged under 6.0. But doing too many jumps or spins will hurt you even MORE under 6.0 because there's an actual point deduction (whereas under IJS it's just worth nothing).

Aspects of your program that DO transfer to the 6.0 system:
- transitions (connecting moves)
- execution of elements
- skating skills
- choreography
- interpretation
(Yes, these are the 5 Program Components, which judges are solely responsible for under the IJS, so they'll be looking at the same things under 6.0)

Aspects of your program that do NOT transfer to the 6.0 system:
- Point values for the various elements
Judges may not even know the point value for each element, since that is the job of the Technical Specialist. The judges just judge the quality of execution. So let's say you are doing two combination jumps and the jumps they contain are a salchow, two loops and a toeloop. Under the IJS, it wouldn't matter which combinations you make out of these jumps; they are all just added up for a total point value. But under the 6.0 system, you would probably want to do them as (1) salchow-toeloop and (2) lutz-loop-loop because the judges would consider the fact that the lutz-loop-loop is the most difficult jump combination you can do using those jumps and count that as more valuable than the same jumps done in easier combinations.

- Risk of falls or underrotated jumps
Under the 6.0 system, it won't hurt you as much if you fall, since there's no mandatory deduction. Also, if you do an axel or double that is slightly under-rotated, it is just judged in relation to the axels or doubles done by the other skaters. If theirs was even worse, then you end up getting placed ahead of them. Under IJS, an underrotated double is downgraded to the value of a single and an underrotated axel is given 0 points.

[Terri C]

One of my coaches said the same thing to me a couple of weeks ago. Every judge he's spoken with this year (and there are a lot, he does a lot of seminars, etc.) has said that no matter what system is being used for the judging, they are all THINKING in IJS terms. So, even if the competition is being conducted under 6.0 and the judges are ranking skaters with ordinals rather than assigning GOEs to individual elements, they are evaluating and ranking the skaters via IJS principles. In other words, they're watching and judging everything through an IJS prism now, so we should start incorporating it into our skating no matter the judging system at any given event.

Ya know what?!
My coaches have been preaching this to me for the last two years!!
Two years ago, when choreographing my now old freeskate, my coach had me try this three jump sequence and when I asked her why, the answer was that IJS/COP was coming and judges are going to be in that mindset.

[Hannahclear]

One of my coaches said the same thing to me a couple of weeks ago. Every judge he's spoken with this year (and there are a lot, he does a lot of seminars, etc.) has said that no matter what system is being used for the judging, they are all THINKING in IJS terms. So, even if the competition is being conducted under 6.0 and the judges are ranking skaters with ordinals rather than assigning GOEs to individual elements, they are evaluating and ranking the skaters via IJS principles. In other words, they're watching and judging everything through an IJS prism now, so we should start incorporating it into our skating no matter the judging system at any given event.

Yeah, my coach says the same thing.

[icedancer2]

And I've been seeing programs like that at every level since about 2003 when IJS was just getting started. Programs got a LOT more interesting!

[LWalsh]

OK I totally get all of that, and my coach is also making me do the program as IJS but that wasn't exactly where I was going with this...

Let's say that I create a program that conforms to IJS at Silver level (even though I am to be judged on the old sys). This means I am limited in my combination jumps to only 1 three jump combo and 2 two jump combos. Another example would be a Loop-Loop where I have used all my loops and can no longer tack on loops to anymore combos. Under the old system I should be packing loop-loops on the end of my jumps to get the most difficulty and I would have three combos with 3 jumps each. So now I will have to dumb down the combos in comparison to the old system (not that I am complaining about that aspect) but are we going to see deductions at this level for say more than one 3 jump combo? In most cases IJS makes things harder and more interesting but this seems out of whack to me.

Lwalsh



lwalsh

[mikawendy]

Am I the only person who keeps reading "WBP" as "WPB"?!!!! Which is where all our old papers need to go....

"WBP" makes me think of "APB" (all points bulletin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APB)) :O)

[Debbie S]

Programs got a LOT more interesting!Well, maybe in terms of connecting steps and transitions, but in many cases, programs are now more predictable. Just think about the U.S Nationals and the Olympics - zillions of Biellmanns, catch-foots, and frenetic spins with 80 zillion positions, many of which were weak. I'm not saying these aren't interesting to watch, but the key here is quantity - actually overload might be the better word.

When's the last time we saw a beautiful Angela Nikodinov-esque layback spin, or a super-fast sit spin that seemed to go on forever? Or originality in a spiral sequence? Now, you can pretty much predict what spirals skaters are going to do. And then the Biellmann spins - there were skaters at Nationals doing Biellmanns that had no business doing so - I was afraid a couple of them were going to blow out their knees - and the spin did not look pretty, but hey, it gained more points than a spin they could perform better. :roll:

[Debbie S]

In most cases IJS makes things harder and more interesting but this seems out of whack to me. Count me in as someone who never thought IJS should have been implemented for adult comps in the first place. The system was designed to judge elite junior- and senior-level international competitors. The reason it was implemented for Novice and up in qual comps (and a few non-quals) in the U.S. was to get up-and-coming skaters used to it before they found themselves at an int'l comp competing for a world championship or Olympic medal. Transferring the point values and such to comps where everyone is doing singles and a few doubles, and in some cases, half-rev jumps, just doesn't make sense. Even in Masters comps, for the most part, the technical level is not what you'd see at Nationals or even Regionals from skaters at the corresponding levels (Novice through Senior). Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the implementation of IJS delayed for Juv and Intermed in qual comps this year? If there are issues with implementing it at those levels, I don't understand the rush to implement it at AN.

Plus, think about the reason for creating the system in the first place: corruption in judging. Do adult comps really have the same judging issues as Worlds and the Olys? When was the last time there was vote trading or toe tapping among judges at an adult competition?

[sk8er1964]

OK I totally get all of that, and my coach is also making me do the program as IJS but that wasn't exactly where I was going with this...

Let's say that I create a program that conforms to IJS at Silver level (even though I am to be judged on the old sys). This means I am limited in my combination jumps to only 1 three jump combo and 2 two jump combos. Another example would be a Loop-Loop where I have used all my loops and can no longer tack on loops to anymore combos. Under the old system I should be packing loop-loops on the end of my jumps to get the most difficulty and I would have three combos with 3 jumps each. So now I will have to dumb down the combos in comparison to the old system (not that I am complaining about that aspect) but are we going to see deductions at this level for say more than one 3 jump combo? In most cases IJS makes things harder and more interesting but this seems out of whack to me.

Lwalsh



lwalsh

lwalsh -- this is NOT aimed at you. I'm just building on your post.

One thing that has driven me nuts watching adult programs, especially at Bronze, is all the X-loop-loop combos. Multiple X-loop combos. OK. I can see you can do a loop on the backside of another jump. Do something else. Do a X-half loop-loop. Or an X-mazurka-salchow. Or an X-mazurke-flip. Or an X-toe loop-loop. Or anything but multiple X-loops!

OK. Pet peeve aired.

[LoopLoop]

Aspects of your program that do NOT transfer to the 6.0 system:
- Point values for the various elements
Judges may not even know the point value for each element, since that is the job of the Technical Specialist. The judges just judge the quality of execution. So let's say you are doing two combination jumps and the jumps they contain are a salchow, two loops and a toeloop. Under the IJS, it wouldn't matter which combinations you make out of these jumps; they are all just added up for a total point value. But under the 6.0 system, you would probably want to do them as (1) salchow-toeloop and (2) lutz-loop-loop because the judges would consider the fact that the lutz-loop-loop is the most difficult jump combination you can do using those jumps and count that as more valuable than the same jumps done in easier combinations.
Per my coach, the judges at this point won't really care how you arrange the jumps in combination, as long as all of the jumps get done. So it would be better to do the jumps in the way that *you* can do them best. If you have a really really good lutz with great flow on the landing, show it off that way rather than putting it in combination. Or whatever your best jump might be.

And for spins in particular, he expects that harder spins will now get more recognition, even under 6.0, than they've done in the past. In general judges have just "checked off" spins, but now they are paying more attention, so if you can do a level 2 or 3 spin, it will be given more credit when judges do the ranking process of the 6.0 system.