New WBP Requirements Posted

[LoopLoop]

The adult section of the USFSA website now has well-balanced program summary sheets posted.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=112

[Debbie S]

Thanks for the link, LoopLoop!

I see that there is now a max of 2 spins in Pre-Bronze - when did this happen? Not to stir anything up, but it seems that if there was going to be a change to Pre-Bronze along with the other levels, shouldn't it have been included in the action items at Governing Council and actually have been voted on?

And here's another issue with this - if this is truly the new rule, is it included in the rulebook for this year, and are comps actually using it, like, now? If so, that means I need to change my program for Wilmington this weekend - silly me, I thought the document that the USFSA posted after GC with the changes to the rulebook was what I should follow.:roll: And are the judges actually going to be given this document to use when judging. I'm certain that my competitors won't see this (unless they frequent this forum - and really, should one have to visit an Internet forum to hear about rule changes that will affect their comp in 5 days?) and if they include 3 spins and receive credit and no deductions, then that means if I follow this rule and only have 2, then I could be at a disadvantage. :twisted:

I also see that there is a note about spiral sequences being counted as transitions for Masters, Gold, and Silver, but nothing is noted about spirals at all under Bronze - I assume this is just an oversight and spirals will indeed receive some sort of credit in Bronze? :??

Off to e-mail the Wilmington organizers for clarification. So much for practicing my backspin in a judged situation before my test....

I think, with these changes, a re-evaluation of the spin content on the Bronze FS test is necessary. JMO.

[Hannahclear]

Don't new rules always take effect on 9/1?

It's nice to see the rules in this format, much easier to follow. I do think it would make sense to adjust bronze FS test because of new rules. Maybe just ditch the forward one foot spin? That's on pre-bronze FS already.

[Debbie S]

Don't new rules always take effect on 9/1?
Not if a competition is following the new season's rules, which is what the Wilmington announcement says.

[jazzpants]

Thanks for the link, LoopLoop!

I see that there is now a max of 2 spins in Pre-Bronze - when did this happen? Not to stir anything up, but it seems that if there was going to be a change to Pre-Bronze along with the other levels, shouldn't it have been included in the action items at Governing Council and actually have been voted on?Yup! I was going to say "Ummmm, when did THIS happen???" 8O 8O 8O

I don't mind that the rules changed (since I'm not competing 'til I pass Bronze FS test and then I'll have a new program anyway! :P), but it would be NICE to know that it was talked about and the resolution for it BACK in *MAY* when it was ratified!!! :roll: (Yeah, I know... there were a lot of stuff brought up the week prior to GC... but that was NOT one of the ones *I* knew about. (The one I know about was the spin requirement between Bronze and Silver level skaters...)

I'm gonna go back and see in the USFSA what notes they already have from Governing Council and see if that rule was on the final vote... I'm pretty sure I didn't see it though.

Maybe just ditch the forward one foot spin? That's on pre-bronze FS already.Not my beloved one foot spin!?!?! Maybe the backspin??? :twisted: (I'm just kidding, Terri C!) :P And sorry, I like my sit spins too!!! LOL!!! :twisted: :P

[rlichtefeld]

This was posted back in May, and I think we discussed it here on the forums quite a bit:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/adults-06GC.pdf

There has been a link to that report at the Adult page since about a week after GC:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=46

We're using the new rules at the Peach Classic this year.

I've also updated the Rules on my website to include all the changes:
http://www.gerfsc.com/rules.htm

Rob

[jazzpants]

This was posted back in May, and I think we discussed it here on the forums quite a bit:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/adults-06GC.pdf

Yeah, this is what I remembered seeing back in May. I am looking at Addendum A and I see NOTHING mentioned about Pre-Bronze FS!

[doubletoe]

All the Gold skaters out there need to be very careful about the wording on the WBP rule summary chart they posted. It mentions jump sequences (with jumps that are no more than 1 revolution) as part of footwork or immediately preceding a jump, but what it doesn't specify is that they are really talking only about *unlisted* jumps like walleys, half loops, etc. If you read the description in the original Combined Report of Action, they threw in some examples there to clarify what kind of jumps they meant. I think they parenthetically mentioned half loops and mazurkas.

[Hannahclear]

What about stag jumps or falling leaves? I would like to put one into my silver program. Does that count toward my max? It's not mentioned at all in the rules.

[Terri C]

Maybe the backspin??? :twisted: (I'm just kidding, Terri C!) :P

Hey, that's MY SPIN!!!! :twisted:

Yeah, I'd like to know why one minute, we Pre Bronze skaters were told that nothing would be changed, because we cannot compete at AN, but it did change with no one telling us. Yeah I know, we're only Pre Bronze and we don't matter (in the eyes of some of the adult "elite")

[Hannahclear]

What is UP with the pre-bronze persecution complex? :lol:

[dcden]

All the Gold skaters out there need to be very careful about the wording on the WBP rule summary chart they posted. It mentions jump sequences (with jumps that are no more than 1 revolution) as part of footwork or immediately preceding a jump, but what it doesn't specify is that they are really talking only about *unlisted* jumps like walleys, half loops, etc. If you read the description in the original Combined Report of Action, they threw in some examples there to clarify what kind of jumps they meant. I think they parenthetically mentioned half loops and mazurkas.

I don't understand. Are you saying that walleys/half loops into a jump would or would not get credit as connecting footwork? What about mazurkas, split jumps, falling leaves, half-flip or half-lutz, etc.? Help!

[Terri C]

What is UP with the pre-bronze persecution complex? :lol:

Hannah,
The spin max of 2 spins in program was not on the Request for Action at GC this year for Pre Bronze freestyle. I'm sick and tired of things not being communicated clearly!

[dcden]

Well, while I can understand the confusion coming from the PB skaters, I also admit that we shouldn't be too surprised that a change was made. When the original wording came out, many skaters rightfully pointed out the discrepancy between PB and Bronze levels per the spins in the WBP reqs. They've made the correction to make the WBP reqs consistent between PB and Bronze.

It would have been nice to have been given a clearer heads up, but knowing how the Bronze reqs were changed to limit spins, this shouldn't come as a complete surprise that the same was done for PB.

Good luck to the PB skaters (all skaters, really) competing soon under the new rules. Just do your best under the new system, adjust your program if you can, and try not to let it get to you too much. Trust me, we're all experiencing growing pains from the new COP/IJS/WBP/XYZ rules.

[Hannahclear]

Hannah,
I'm sick and tired of things not being communicated clearly!

I can understand your frustration, but don't you think you are being a little unreasonable towards an organization that is largely run by volunteers who are in this because they love our sport?

They are probably doing the best they can.

[Terri C]

I can understand your frustration, but don't you think you are being a little unreasonable towards an organization that is largely run by volunteers who are in this because they love our sport?

They are probably doing the best they can.

Think about it. The GC proposals regarding Adult issues are usually not heard of until AN in April, and by then the Requests For Action are a 90% done deal.
While I have a backup plan in place to follow the 2 spin max in the freeskate, I will have to adjust my program in other areas. And there are Pre Bronzers competing in the weeks to come (Wilmington, Hershey, Peach Classic on the East Coast for example) that will have one heck of a time adjusting their programs in a matter of weeks or days, where if this had come out in May or even June, that would have given them more time.

[jazzpants]

Well, while I can understand the confusion coming from the PB skaters, I also admit that we shouldn't be too surprised that a change was made. When the original wording came out, many skaters rightfully pointed out the discrepancy between PB and Bronze levels per the spins in the WBP reqs. They've made the correction to make the WBP reqs consistent between PB and Bronze.

It would have been nice to have been given a clearer heads up, but knowing how the Bronze reqs were changed to limit spins, this shouldn't come as a complete surprise that the same was done for PB.dcden: thankfully, I personally will NOT be one of them, since I've made a pledge to myself to NOT compete until at least my Bronze FS tests are passed (whenever that is... :roll: ) and then start my Bronze FS reign with a BRAND NEW competition program!

Hannahclear: The final doc coming out of GC said NOTHING about Pre-Bronze competitive FS programs being changed and now 3 months afterwards we're just finding out the WBP has been changed for Pre-Bronze FS too? For those who are competing in the coming weeks would require that they rechoreograph their program and then having to adjust to the flow of the program under the new requirements in a short amount of time!

Yes, I know that USFSA is primary run by volunteers and they're doing the best they can, but I can also understand Terri's frustrations on this one and she has a right to express her frustration over this, as I'm sure there are other Pre-Bronze skaters who are also frustrated about this too.

Here's a scenario: Suppose you are planning to test Bronze FS say in Sept. and you find out JUST NOW that your test program has to be adjusted to do two spins for the new requirements, wouldn't you have the same frustration? (Let's say also that you ALSO have to test by Sept so you can allow time for yourself to get in gear for the new skating season to make your program competitive up to Silver for ummmm, Halloween Classic (or Skate SF...) How would you handle this situation?

[Hannahclear]

Hannahclear: The final doc coming out of GC said NOTHING about Pre-Bronze competitive FS programs being changed and now 3 months afterwards we're just finding out the WBP has been changed for Pre-Bronze FS too? For those who are competing in the coming weeks would require that they rechoreograph their program and then having to adjust to the flow of the program under the new requirements in a short amount of time!

Yes, it's inconvenient, but is it that cumbersome to remove one spin? We're not talking about adding a double axel here.

Yes, I know that USFSA is primary run by volunteers and they're doing the best they can, but I can also understand Terri's frustrations on this one and she has a right to express her frustration over this, as I'm sure there are other Pre-Bronze skaters who are also frustrated about this too.

I also understand her frustration, but I wanted to express my opinion that we need to respect the volunteer aspect of the committee structure and the fact that these people are working in this job with other life tasks.

Here's a scenario: Suppose you are planning to test Bronze FS say in Sept. and you find out JUST NOW that your test program has to be adjusted to do two spins for the new requirements, wouldn't you have the same frustration?

Extra elements can be added to test programs without penalty. So it wouldn't be an issue.

[singerskates]

Wow, I'm Canadian and with the changes I see, when I finally test both my prelim and junior bronze tests, I'll have Lutz, single Axel, 2 toe and 2 sal. That will mean I will have to skate up into Gold if I do double jumps. Plus, what is really weird for us Canadian skaters wanting to also compete in the US, is that the USFSA still hasn't extended the skating times. My prelim soon to be junior bronze program is 2 min 32 secs and I can have upto 6 jumping passes in them and so far, I can include double jumps if I wish along with flying spins, a footwork sequence and a spiral sequence.

Right now, I have to get working on that Axel so I can skate up to Silver to keep my prelim test program time of 2 min 3 secs. I'm throwing my test program away right after I test and then I'll be keeping my competition program mentioned above for the rest of 2006-2007.

What if we Canadians register for your US competitions through our sections, what happens with the program times? Do we still get to keep our program times or do we have to skate up or us music from a previous level?

singerskates

[jazzpants]

Yes, it's inconvenient, but is it that cumbersome to remove one spin?For my current test/competition program, it is! I wouldn't know which spins to take out, for one, never mind what to replace it with to keep the technical difficulty up! The other frustration (admittedly a greedy one) is that my spins are my stronger selling points. Jumps are definitely not one of my selling points! :roll:

I also understand her frustration, but I wanted to express my opinion that we need to respect the volunteer aspect of the committee structure and the fact that these people are working in this job with other life tasks.Fair enough, as long as Terri (and others) are allowed to air out their opinions on this and the committee addresses this issue in a fair and sensitive manner.

[doubletoe]

Wow, I'm Canadian and with the changes I see, when I finally test both my prelim and junior bronze tests, I'll have Lutz, single Axel, 2 toe and 2 sal. That will mean I will have to skate up into Gold if I do double jumps. Plus, what is really weird for us Canadian skaters wanting to also compete in the US, is that the USFSA still hasn't extended the skating times. My prelim soon to be junior bronze program is 2 min 32 secs and I can have upto 6 jumping passes in them and so far, I can include double jumps if I wish along with flying spins, a footwork sequence and a spiral sequence.

Right now, I have to get working on that Axel so I can skate up to Silver to keep my prelim test program time of 2 min 3 secs. I'm throwing my test program away right after I test and then I'll be keeping my competition program mentioned above for the rest of 2006-2007.

What if we Canadians register for your US competitions through our sections, what happens with the program times? Do we still get to keep our program times or do we have to skate up or us music from a previous level?

singerskates

That's got to be confusing. But there's no way you would be allowed to do doubles in Silver and there's also no way you'd be allowed to skate for more than 2:10 in Silver, so my guess is that you'd have to skate at Gold instead. As long as it's a local competition and not Sectionals or Nationals, they usually let you "skate up" one level higher than your test level.

[doubletoe]

I don't understand. Are you saying that walleys/half loops into a jump would or would not get credit as connecting footwork? What about mazurkas, split jumps, falling leaves, half-flip or half-lutz, etc.? Help!
The point is that "unlisted" jumps (including all of the ones you mentioned) will only be considered connecting moves, even if they immediately precede a listed jump. In other words, doing a split jump immediately before your flip will not turn your flip into a combination or sequence. That's good because you are only allowed 3 jump combinations or sequences. The point is that they must be unlisted jumps or else they will count against the total number of combinations/sequences or jump passes you are allowed to do, and the summary table doesn't specify "unlisted." So I am hoping it doesn't mess anyone up!

[doubletoe]

What about stag jumps or falling leaves? I would like to put one into my silver program. Does that count toward my max? It's not mentioned at all in the rules.

If you put a stag or split jump in by itself, it's just a "connecting move," not a jump that will count toward your jump limits. If you do it immediately before a listed jump (like a split jump - flip) it's still just considered a connecting move and does not make the flip into a combination, so you're fine there, too. However, if you do it in-between two listed jumps, it could turn those two separate jumps into a sequence, which you may or may not want to do. The only jumps that will count against your jump total are the following "listed" jumps:
Toeloop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel (and any double/triple/quad versions of those jumps).

[Hannahclear]

Cool. I really want to learn how to do a stag jump. There's just this perfect spot in my new music cut. No combo or anything, just as a highlight connecting move.

[doubletoe]

Think about it. The GC proposals regarding Adult issues are usually not heard of until AN in April, and by then the Requests For Action are a 90% done deal.
While I have a backup plan in place to follow the 2 spin max in the freeskate, I will have to adjust my program in other areas. And there are Pre Bronzers competing in the weeks to come (Wilmington, Hershey, Peach Classic on the East Coast for example) that will have one heck of a time adjusting their programs in a matter of weeks or days, where if this had come out in May or even June, that would have given them more time.

I think the bigger problem is really with those pre-season competitions that require skaters to go by the new season's rules, even though they aren't officially supposed to take effect until September 1st and the new rulebooks aren't out yet. I t hink they have an obligation to publish all rule changes in their competition announcements if they are going to ask skaters to follow a rulebook that isn't out yet.

[Hannahclear]

Not trying to detract from thread at all, but does Wilmington get alot of adult skaters participating? I could probably make that, it's about 6 hours by car.

[Terri C]

Not trying to detract from thread at all, but does Wilmington get alot of adult skaters participating? I could probably make that, it's about 6 hours by car.

While I've never attended Skate Wilmington myself, from what I've heard it's one of the more standard track adult friendly competitions.

Hannah, maybe you could come to Halloween Classic?

[Debbie S]

Yes, it's inconvenient, but is it that cumbersome to remove one spin? We're not talking about adding a double axel here.
My issue with this is not that the rule changed (well, I do have issues with that, but that's not what I was discussing), but that it was put into the new rules without any warning or proper notification. It wasn't in the list of changes that passed at Governing Council, and the Adult Skating Committee chair himself said that a decision had been made not to change anything about Pre-Bronze because it is not a comp level at AN.

So now, 2 months later, I'm competing in 5 days and I see something posted in an obscure section of the USFSA website (in other words, not in the News section or on the home page in the Member Services box like other clarifications to program requirements have been linked) that says there was a change to the Pre-Bronze WBP, which directly affects my program that I have been running through at every practice. If this rule change is indeed correct and not a typo (which crossed my mind), that means I need to suddenly start practicing a program with a different beginning with 2 days of practice left before the comp. It's highly irritating. Entering FS at this comp cost $80 (for the first event - I'm doing CM as a second event), plus gas and other expenses - I think it is not unreasonable to expect that the rules will be clearly communicated to competitors, and judges, in advance.

And if this does turn out to be a typo and that's really not the rule, then if I take out a spin and my competitors have 3 spins and are allowed to get credit for them, I've just sc**ed myself by trying to follow the rules!

I've e-mailed the contact person on the website and got a response saying they are checking with the head referee. Hopefully, I'll know the situation before my lesson tomorrow night.

[Debbie S]

Not trying to detract from thread at all, but does Wilmington get alot of adult skaters participating? I could probably make that, it's about 6 hours by car.Usually it does, but not this year. The only adult FS event is Pre-Bronze, with 3 competitors (including yours truly). There is Pre-Bronze/Bronze CM (with yours truly and 2 others) and a Bronze spin event. There is also Adult Artistic - I think there are 3 or 4 in that event.

I guess everyone's working on moves or other tests or just on vacation. Last year, there were 7 Pre-Bronze entrants.

[Skate@Delaware]

Usually it does, but not this year. The only adult FS event is Pre-Bronze, with 3 competitors (including yours truly). There is Pre-Bronze/Bronze CM (with yours truly and 2 others) and a Bronze spin event. There is also Adult Artistic - I think there are 3 or 4 in that event.

I guess everyone's working on moves or other tests or just on vacation. Last year, there were 7 Pre-Bronze entrants.
Man! I should do this next year! I haven't been to that rink, although some of the other adults at my rink head up there occasionally for summer skating. I will have to keep it in mind for next year (and it will give me a reason to skate more over the summer!)

[Raye]

Wow, I'm Canadian and with the changes I see, when I finally test both my prelim and junior bronze tests, I'll have Lutz, single Axel, 2 toe and 2 sal. That will mean I will have to skate up into Gold if I do double jumps. Plus, what is really weird for us Canadian skaters wanting to also compete in the US, is that the USFSA still hasn't extended the skating times. My prelim soon to be junior bronze program is 2 min 32 secs and I can have upto 6 jumping passes in them and so far, I can include double jumps if I wish along with flying spins, a footwork sequence and a spiral sequence.

Right now, I have to get working on that Axel so I can skate up to Silver to keep my prelim test program time of 2 min 3 secs. I'm throwing my test program away right after I test and then I'll be keeping my competition program mentioned above for the rest of 2006-2007.

What if we Canadians register for your US competitions through our sections, what happens with the program times? Do we still get to keep our program times or do we have to skate up or us music from a previous level?

singerskates
I am a Canadian Skater who has competed many times in Canada, the US and Europe. I have two versions of every program. I skate Bronze (Jr Bronze in Canada), so I have an International "short" version (1:40) and a Canadian '"extended" version (2:30+/-10) of both my Freeskate and my Interpretive.

[sk8pics]

Here's a scenario: Suppose you are planning to test Bronze FS say in Sept. and you find out JUST NOW that your test program has to be adjusted to do two spins for the new requirements, wouldn't you have the same frustration?

I just want to point out that the WBP rules are for competition programs, NOT tests.

I asked Tony for some clarification, and I will let you know what I find out.

[jazzpants]

I just want to point out that the WBP rules are for competition programs, NOT tests.

I asked Tony for some clarification, and I will let you know what I find out.The comment above was STRICTLY for hypothetical purposes. Yes, it only impacts competitions programs, NOT test!

[Debbie S]

OK, I just heard back from the chair, who forwarded me the response from the referee (who also refs HC, incidentally). Apparently, the 2-spin limit in Pre-Bronze only applies if IJS is used. For Wilmington, which is using 6.0, the spin limit is 3. Phew!

Of course, one has to wonder why the page didn't clarify that so as not to create unnecessary confusion. And just when are Pre-Bronze skaters going to be judged under the new system? As of now, there are no Pre-Bronze comps at AN, Mountain Cup, or O'dorf. I can understand the principle of putting something in the rules, just in case, but I think everything could have been stated more clearly.

OK, off to practice (well, in a little bit) my backspin. Looks like I'm going to need it after all!

[dcden]

OK, I just heard back from the chair, who forwarded me the response from the referee (who also refs HC, incidentally). Apparently, the 2-spin limit in Pre-Bronze only applies if IJS is used. For Wilmington, which is using 6.0, the spin limit is 3.

Thanks Debbie for sniffing around for this info. But now I wonder, are the WBP requirements only used when IJS is used for ALL levels? I have heard that the qualifying events (Championship) at Adult sectionals will use 6.0, while the finals at Adult Nationals will use IJS.

[Debbie S]

are the WBP requirements only used when IJS is used for ALL levels? I have heard that the qualifying events (Championship) at Adult sectionals will use 6.0, while the finals at Adult Nationals will use IJS.I've heard that too. I assumed the WBP requirements were changed to reflect the use of the system at AN - leaving out Pre-Bronze makes sense then, since it's not at AN - and that the rules were in effect all the time b/c why would you want to have different program requirements or limitations depending on the event (after all, we only have 1 program). But now I wonder. Has anyone seen a new rulebook yet?

[Thin-Ice]

New rulebooks will be sent out in September*.. although judges get them a bit earlier.. but I've never seen a judge with a new one BEFORE mid-August.

*Yes, I KNOW the rules start applying September 1st... but that seems to be the printing and mailing schedule.

[sk8pics]

If you follow the links from the main usfs web page, it says that the wbp requirements are for the IJS, but it is definitely confusing that the top of the page with the table of requirements doesn't say that. I hope that information will be added to avoid future confusion.

I think for a while it will be especially important to read competition announcements carefully and check rulebook references, and even ask for clarification from the referee. Hopefully things will progress and become less unclear in the future.

[LWalsh]

This is exactly what I posted about in another thread. For WBP requirements we ONLY have to worry about the comps using IJS. That means if you are Gold or Masters at Nats and all levels at Obertsdorf. That's it. Right now the local and lower level comps are not using IJS.

Side note: I understand Lake Placid is implementing a computer system for IJS so if AN moves there in 2008 we just might see it for everyone at AN.

lwalsh

[Debbie S]

For WBP requirements we ONLY have to worry about the comps using IJS. That means if you are Gold or Masters at Nats and all levels at Obertsdorf. OK, so does that mean that if a comp is not using IJS (Halloween Classic, for example), then these rules do not apply? So, for example, if I compete Bronze at HC, I can do 3 spins in my program, or 5 jump elements, etc? So would last year's WBP rules apply, or some other rule? :?? But then at AN, the new rules are in effect (even though Bronze and Silver will be judged by 6.0)?

I must ask, what was the point of implementing new WBP for Bronze and Silver anyway (since all judging will be based on 6.0)? And from what I have gathered (someone correct me if I'm wrong), O'dorf does not have these jump and spin restrictions. My understanding is these are USFSA rules, not ISU - whereas the standard track comps using IJS (including club comps), follow the rules of the ISU.

[NoVa Sk8r]

I have heard that the qualifying events (Championship) at Adult sectionals will use 6.0, while the finals at Adult Nationals will use IJS.Indeed.
Check out the first bullet point here:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=46
"The IJS will only be used at the U.S. Adult Championships for gold events and higher (not including interpretive events). The IJS will not be used at the adult sectional championships for any events at all."

Also, my understanding was that GC changed the WBP rules now, so that adults could get used to them for when IJS will be used for all events.

[TimDavidSkate]

wish they could use it for silver and bronze events too :halo: makes everything fair and so we can see where we need to improve upon, its just hard just looking at the ordinals and trying to chase a judge to ask for feedback

[singerskates]

I am a Canadian Skater who has competed many times in Canada, the US and Europe. I have two versions of every program. I skate Bronze (Jr Bronze in Canada), so I have an International "short" version (1:40) and a Canadian '"extended" version (2:30+/-10) of both my Freeskate and my Interpretive.

I was told by Carol Moir (Scott Moir's mother) that I could register for US competitions through my section (WOS) and that I wouldn't have to change my program times. But of course that was a few years ago and now, who knows?

Brigitte

[LoopLoop]

I was told by Carol Moir (Scott Moir's mother) that I could register for US competitions through my section (WOS) and that I wouldn't have to change my program times. But of course that was a few years ago and now, who knows?
To be honest, I'd ask someone in the U.S. about registering for USFSA competitions rather than trust the word of a parent of a Canadian skater.

[Frumpy]

Back when all this was approved by the GC, I e-mailed Antonio Conte, and this was his response to my questions (His answers are in blue, my questions are in black), and he specifically answers the question about 1/2 rotation jumps and connecting-type jumps:

Thanks for your questions. This is a new areas so it is understandable.
I should explain a couple of things first. Also, see my answers in Bold blue below. Hope this helps out.

All jumps that are less than 1 full revolution do NOT count as jump elements and are considered connecting steps or transitions.


A jump can be repeated only ONCE > so once you do the jump twice, whether it is twice in combination or once in a combination/sequence and then once as a solo jump > that jump cannot be used again. If you use it again, you will not receive any points in the IJS > in the 6.0 system, you will receive a 0.2 deduction for a repeated element.

See answers below:
-----Original Message-----
From: Frumpy
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:19 PM
To: sedated@bellsouth.net; newskates@aol.com
Subject: Question regarding combination jumps in Silver programs

Dear Mr. Conte and Ms. Hughes,

I am skating Adult Silver this year, and my coach and I are trying to
accomodate my freeskate program to the "well balanced program" guidance
recently approved at the governing council.


I understand that my program can have 3 combination jumps or sequences. One combination can have 3 jumps, the other two jump combos can only have 2 jumps. Jumps can be repeated only once, and only in combination.


My first jumping pass in my program is a lutz-loop-loop. I would love to
keep my Lutz-loop-loop in my program since I don't have an axel yet. My coach and I are trying to be inventive to keep the difficulty of my jumping passes up, while still following the new rule.

Remember this is about accruing points and also making your jumps of very high quality. Nice height, strong landing, variation on take-off, etc…..
My first jumping pass is a lutz-loop-loop. Does
that mean that I have "used up" all of my loop jumps, or can I do a
flip-loop as my second combination jump?

You have used up your loop jumps, now move on to some other jump as the second jump in a combo/sequence.


As I understand it, half rotation jumps (ie. half loops) don't count as a
jump, but as a connecting move. Does that include a waltz jump, since it is
only 1/2 rotation? If I did a waltz-half loop-salchow, is that considered 1
jump since the waltz & half loop are only 1/2 revolution? Yes, this one jump (as opposed to it being considered a sequence). It is a single jump. If I did a waltz-toe loop-toe loop, is that 3 jumps, or 2? Two

If I did a flip-half loop-salchow, does that count only as 2 jump sequence -- or is that 3 jumps in sequence and not allowedif I have the lutz-loop-loop? 2 jump sequence


Is a lutz-loop-half loop-salchow considered 3 jumps sequence, or is that sequence 4 jumps -- and not allowed? 3 jump sequence
---------------------

I hope that helps answer some of the questions posted earlier. :D

[Debbie S]

Remember this is about accruing points and also making your jumps of very high quality. Nice height, strong landing, variation on take-off, etc….. Except that Silver (and levels below) won't be judged using this system. The 6.0 system is not based on an accumulation of points (yes, I realize that any judging system will favor jumps with good height and flow on landing). This is where I get annoyed, Having different judging systems for different levels just leads to confusion and contradictions, IMO.

So I guess this means that waltz jumps won't count, even in Bronze (I'm assuming, based on the page that this thread links to, that half rev jumps will be counted in Pre-Bronze)? I've seen plenty of Bronze skaters do waltz-loop, waltz-toe-loop, and waltz-half loop-sal combos - hey, they're not allowed to do an axel. So now, I guess it would be pointless to have a waltz jump in a Bronze program (not that I was planning one), b/c you'd get no credit (even though IJS is not being used to judge Bronze anywhere in the U.S, at least this season).

[Frumpy]

So I guess this means that waltz jumps won't count, even in Bronze (I'm assuming, based on the page that this thread links to, that half rev jumps will be counted in Pre-Bronze)? I've seen plenty of Bronze skaters do waltz-loop, waltz-toe loop, and waltz-half loop-sal combos - hey, they're not allowed to do an axel. So now, I guess it would be pointless to have a waltz jump in a Bronze program (not that I was planning one), b/c you'd get no credit (even though IJS is not being used to judge Bronze anywhere in the U.S, at least this season).

That's pretty much what I got out of Mr. Conte's answer. On the plus side, you can use a waltz-jump as a connecting move, and it won't count against the total number of jumps, while still adding interest to the program and connections to the jumping passess and footwork, etc.

I don't know what it means for the pre-Bronze skaters, though. :oops:

[doubletoe]

What Tony should have also mentioned is that it's not just 1/2 revolution jumps that are considered connecting steps rather than jumps. It's ALL "unlisted" jumps. So if you don't see a jump listed in the table of point values (or if it has 0 value), then it is an unlisted jump and you can use it as a connecting move (except a toe walley, which is counted as a toeloop).

For example, the walley is a full revolution jump if there ever was one, and the "half axel" is also a full revolution jump (it takes off forward, does one full revolution and lands forward on the toepick). Although you won't get any points on your technical score for any of these unlisted jumps and they won't count against your jump total, they will add to your "Transitions" and probably "Choreography" scores on your second mark. You can also use them as part of your footwork and they will be reflected in your footwork points.

Any listed jump landed on the opposite foot (for example, the "one foot axel", which takes off from a LFO edge and lands backward on a LBI edge after 1-1/2 revolutions) still counts as a listed jump and gets full credit as long as it is fully rotated. So if you want to do a combination and have no more loops or toeloops to use, you could do a flip landed on the left foot and take off immediately into a salchow from your LBI landing edge and it should count as a flip-salchow combination (0.5 + 0.4 = 0.9 points). I haven't tested this in real life, but this is the rule according to the ISU publications.

EXCEPTIONS:

1. HALF LOOP - Although a "half loop" is technically a full revolution jump landed backward on the opposite foot, they have decided to specifically include this in the "half jump" or unlisted jump category so it won't count as a jump. (Any other full revolution listed jump that is landed backward on the "wrong" foot is still counted in full.)

2. TOE WALLEY - This is counted the same as a toeloop, even though it isn't listed. Any toe walley you do will be worth 0.4, called as a toeloop and counted against your toeloop limit.

[sk8er1964]

I was told by Carol Moir (Scott Moir's mother) that I could register for US competitions through my section (WOS) and that I wouldn't have to change my program times. But of course that was a few years ago and now, who knows?

Brigitte

I announced a large comp in May, and when we had Canadian skaters we would tell the referee so he wouldn't ding them with a time violation.

[rlichtefeld]

The answer is to read the individual announcement for that competition. Each and every announcement that gets a sanction in the US has to list which events are offered and their time limits. And, the referee for the event, will blow his/her whistle if you go too long, and any elements after that will not count.

Rob

I was told by Carol Moir (Scott Moir's mother) that I could register for US competitions through my section (WOS) and that I wouldn't have to change my program times. But of course that was a few years ago and now, who knows?

Brigitte

[w.w.west]

Indeed.
Check out the first bullet point here:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=46
"The IJS will only be used at the U.S. Adult Championships for gold events and higher (not including interpretive events). The IJS will not be used at the adult sectional championships for any events at all."

Also, my understanding was that GC changed the WBP rules now, so that adults could get used to them for when IJS will be used for all events.

Yes. This is correct. And the WBP rules apply whether IJS or 6.0 is used. The difference is that in 6.0 there will be deductions for extra jumps or spins performed while in IJS, points simply will not be given.

The reason that IJS is only being used for Gold and higher at AN is that we have to start somewhere. It may or may not be used for other events in the future, but if it is, it will be a phase-in process.

Also, the Pre-Bronze WBP did not change since it is not an event at AN. The table that was posted on the website recently was an oversight. It is in the process of being corrected.

It is also very important to READ THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF EACH INDIVIDUAL COMPETITION.

These boards are great for communicating, support, etc. However, when a question arises that involves rules, my suggestion would be to contact the chair of the appropriate committee or your respective Sectional Vice Chair.

I know that all this is confusing, but it will work itself out like everything else. Please be patient and enjoy your skating!

[NoVa Sk8r]

On another note, this has bearing for those who will be competing under IJS:
http://usfsa.org/content/Sit%20spin%20special%20notification.pdf

"Sit position in spins"
-A sit position is obtained when the angle of the skating leg in the knee is not more than 90 degrees, if the angle is more than 90 degrees, the position is considered an upright.

If the buttocks are higher than the knee, there must be a GOE reduction of -1 to -3 (depending on the height and the duration of such position)

*All skaters need to be aware that if they come up too high in trying to get a feature in the sit spin, at that point they may be converting that spin to a combination spin if it gets called an "upright spin", due to the over 90 degrees.*

[sk8er1964]

On another note, this has bearing for those who will be competing under IJS:
http://usfsa.org/content/Sit%20spin%20special%20notification.pdf

"Sit position in spins"
-A sit position is obtained when the angle of the skating leg in the knee is not more than 90 degrees, if the angle is more than 90 degrees, the position is considered an upright.

If the buttocks are higher than the knee, there must be a GOE reduction of -1 to -3 (depending on the height and the duration of such position)

*All skaters need to be aware that if they come up too high in trying to get a feature in the sit spin, at that point they may be converting that spin to a combination spin if it gets called an "upright spin", due to the over 90 degrees.*

I know adults have been dinged on this already, but have you taken a look at the elite's sit spins lately? With all the variations and edge changes, there's a lot of butts sticking up in the air out there!

[NoVa Sk8r]

Well, apparently, your butt can stick out as long as that 90 degree stricture is observed. (And who was it telling me that Plushenko has mastered this?!)

[TimDavidSkate]

On another note, this has bearing for those who will be competing under IJS:
http://usfsa.org/content/Sit%20spin%20special%20notification.pdf

"Sit position in spins"
-A sit position is obtained when the angle of the skating leg in the knee is not more than 90 degrees, if the angle is more than 90 degrees, the position is considered an upright.

If the buttocks are higher than the knee, there must be a GOE reduction of -1 to -3 (depending on the height and the duration of such position)

*All skaters need to be aware that if they come up too high in trying to get a feature in the sit spin, at that point they may be converting that spin to a combination spin if it gets called an "upright spin", due to the over 90 degrees.*


~~~* whip * ouch, its really pushing everybody to be better

[jazzpants]

On another note, this has bearing for those who will be competing under IJS:
http://usfsa.org/content/Sit%20spin%20special%20notification.pdf

"Sit position in spins"
-A sit position is obtained when the angle of the skating leg in the knee is not more than 90 degrees, if the angle is more than 90 degrees, the position is considered an upright.

If the buttocks are higher than the knee, there must be a GOE reduction of -1 to -3 (depending on the height and the duration of such position)

*All skaters need to be aware that if they come up too high in trying to get a feature in the sit spin, at that point they may be converting that spin to a combination spin if it gets called an "upright spin", due to the over 90 degrees.*(Sarcastic tone) Greeeeat! I could see the judges going out there with a protractor to verify that the person's sit spin is at 90 or under. :roll: :twisted: :lol:

[doubletoe]

~~~* whip * ouch, its really pushing everybody to be better

Or at least develop a butt that hangs down more! :lol:

[jazzpants]

Or at least develop a butt that hangs down more! :lol:Great! Now I'm thinking of that Sir Mix-a-Lot rap tune in my head!!! :P :lol:

"I like big butts and I cannot lie..." :roll:

[mikawendy]

Or at least develop a butt that hangs down more! :lol:


PML, doubletoe!!!! Too funny!

[singerskates]

To be honest, I'd ask someone in the U.S. about registering for USFSA competitions rather than trust the word of a parent of a Canadian skater.

Carol Moir is the programs director for Skate Canada Western Ontario Section, not just a mother of a world class junior ice dancer.

singerskates

[singerskates]

I announced a large comp in May, and when we had Canadian skaters we would tell the referee so he wouldn't ding them with a time violation.

Which competition was this and has it already happened?

singerskates